Microsoft or Google? 490
Undecided asks: "I will be graduating next April, and I have been fortunate enough to receive job offers from both Microsoft and Google. This has left me with a bit of a conundrum, however — I'm having real difficulty deciding which offer to accept. Putting aside compensation and other personal circumstances that will factor into my decision, what is the Slashdot community's take on this? Am I crazy not to go with Google? I am especially interested in the insight of others working in the computer science industry, in particular those who may have experienced what it's like to work at both companies."
Advice from a professor... (Score:5, Informative)
That's what I've heard as far as corporate culture goes. As far as business practices go and innovation, that's common knowledge.
And what... no Apple?
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:4, Informative)
Consider yourself lucky.
I've worked for large and small companies and by far, the OT/weekend work are more common in small companies.
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:5, Informative)
I visited the Google campus two weekends ago. On a Saturday. I counted only three working employees (in the Pirate group) other than the contractors who were setting up something in the main auditorium: the whole place was cavernously empty. The corporate culture is that life outside of Google is first, working at Google second. When it's time for work, everyone's there. When it's time to go home, people enjoy the rest of their life. And this makes for some very loyal employees.
I don't know about the Microsoft corporate culture, but the one at Google is definitely not what your professor described in the least.
Re:Seattle Rain (Score:5, Informative)
We have actual seasons, as opposed to many cities that seem to only have two, with a range of decently hot weather, to not-too-cool winters. In regards to rain, we had a nice long stretch of 60 or so days (someone correct me if I'm wrong) just a little while back where there wasn't any rain at all. One thing I can say about the rain though, is that it makes the air amazingly fresh.
Not exactly a technical topic, but Seattle's constant rain is an overstated load of hooey.
False (Score:5, Informative)
At Google, from what I have heard, the members put in the hours because it is fun, not because it is demanded of them. Biiiig difference.
Re:innovation (Score:3, Informative)
Re:innovation (Score:2, Informative)
Picasa? *cough*Writely*cough* Google Docs? YouTube?
Re:verb conjugation and pirates (Score:4, Informative)
"Microsoft were" and "Google have" assume that company names are collective nouns. This is common in non US English. "The government are" vs "The government is", etc. Not everyone here speaks US English.
That depends on a lot more than you think (Score:4, Informative)
Google might be a good place to work if you just really feel that their products and services are going to be part of the next big wave of technology. They are doing a lot of cool stuff with network computing which I think people failed to predict a few years ago, and they have a culture of "doing the cool stuff". However, they're a small company. Despite their significant resources, they are still as susceptible to the mood of the market as any other relatively small company. Sure, they can liquidate resources if they get in a pinch due to the whims of the marketplace, but to do so would invariably affect their deliverable services and drive more people away. That's a hard place to be and could lead to a devolution of Google within a very short timeframe. They've been lucky so far, and I have to admit I do like their products a lot. However, I don't pay for them. At least not directly.
Microsoft is a big company with deep pockets and wide reserves that can weather a storm in the economy much better than Google. Sure, again they can liquidate resources in a crunch but it would take an economic disaster far worse than the Dot Com crash to kill a company like Microsoft. We as the Open Source / Apple / Tech crowd might want to believe Microsoft will be beaten by , but that's not really going to happen any time soon.
Google has a monoculture. Sure, they're a small company doing some cool stuff but they're still quite focused on a particular market. When you work for Google, you work for the company. Microsoft surprisingly has many different cultures depending on where in Microsoft you work. Microsoft is not one company, not really. It's a gestalt entity that shares the umbrella name of "Microsoft", but each division is run differently by different people with different management styles and personalities. This makes sense because each division does something very different. Even different areas of the country provide different cultures; I find the Microsoft guys I work with and know in St. Louis are VERY different from the Microsoft friends of mine in New York, at least in terms of business. They work differently, they think differently.
Bear in mind also that a job at Microsoft doesn't tie you to Redmond. You can pretty much work anywhere in the world. Last I checked, Google is in SF and that's about it. Bear that in mind; at Microsoft you can transfer your job to any of the other communities where they perform that function. Especially Microsoft Consulting Services... you can pretty much pick your location after you've been at MS for 6 months to a year and really proven yourself.
On the down side, I do know that Google tends to be an easy-going work environment, though with a veiled sense of pressure. Employees are subtly pressured to work far beyond 40 hours a week and thus it's not a good career in my opinion for someone with a family or someone intending to start a family. However, it *is* a fun place to work with lots of dynamic individuals who work hard but also play hard. Microsoft... well it depends where you work. There are fewer chances for advancement within Microsoft because people do tend to stay there. That also to my mind speaks to how good Microsoft actually are to work for; people tend to start there and stay there. However, the chances to "make it big with MS Stock" are over and have been for years. There may still be room for Google millionaires for real rock-star employees... MS... less so. However, the lack of advancement in my opinion is more than made up for by the flexibility of work location I mentioned previously.
I have to say that those friends of mine who work for Microsoft really enjoy their work. Many of them are as much of a geek as I am... running Linux and Vista on thei
Depends on your priorities in life (Score:2, Informative)
If you are one of those people who "works to live", has a family or plans to start one, prefers the stability of a company that focuses on revenue and profit over being an R&D lab, and likes being surrounded by polite but anal-retentive liberal environmentalist organic vegans, then pick Microsoft.
The myths you hear about "mandatory overtime" at Microsoft are bullshit. I work there as a developer, and I can tell you that the amount of overtime people put in varies depending upon what group they choose to work in and how efficient (or not) they are at getting their work done quickly. There are very few times of year when I have to put in more than the typical 40-hour work-week. Of course, some people I know who are working on Vista are putting in tons of late hours these days. So it varies a lot. I suppose the same is true at Google -- lots of variation, depending on what you choose to work on, your working efficiency, and the culture of the group you choose.
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:5, Informative)
And if you take a job with Google, you can still live in Seattle [nwsource.com]
. Google has a big operation in Kirkland.Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:3, Informative)
Chances are pretty good that there are workaholics anywhere you go. Google strongly, *strongly* encourages life outside of work. This is what the craploads of vacation time and 20% time and so forth are for.
"Interesting" projects? It depends ... (Score:5, Informative)
As I've noted in my other posts, I work for MS and I'd have to disagree somewhat. It all depends on the groups you end up in. I definately know of people here that work on tiny, insignificant roles in the company. Most often, they seem to be in the "big divisions" (Windows and Office). But I know of many people (including those in my group), that work on a wide variety of "different and interesting" projects, that have a key impact on customers. Maybe not on MS overall, but if I had to choose between making MS happy, and making millions of customers happy, it's certainly the latter that I'm choosing.
The way MS works is that there are a ton of these little product units that almost act like a company within themselves. So you get a lot of the benefits of working in a small company (high visibility among your peers) along with the benefits of a large company (stability, etc). Granted, there are a lot of disadvantages as well (red-tape, paperwork, etc.).
It's probably moot for the author, since I would imagine it's the same setup at Google as well. It appears they have many little teams as well, all working on their own bit of Google-goodness. So my advice: check out which groups gave you an offer, and decide what you would rather work on. Personally, I only chose to work at MS because I got to work in the games industry. I definately would not have come here just to work on Office or Windows, despite them being the huge drivers of the company.
My Perspective (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not really a developer. Sure I code occasionally, but that is not the core of my job. I do, however, work at a development house. We're a small company and we are really, really picky about who we hire. There are a handful of people who have come to us from MS. They all seem to like it here much more and have settled in for the long haul and occasionally grumble about how bad things were at MS by comparison. We don't have anyone from Google, but we've had several people leave here to go work for Google. They all seem pretty happy with it there.
Based solely on my impressions from these people, I'd much rather be at Google than MS. I'm sure, however, that your experience will depend upon what you'd be doing at each place and with whom. Good luck.
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.google.com/jobs/ [google.com]
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:5, Informative)
As a Googler I can reveal to you that you are correct about the food, wrong about the work hours. Our work hours are perfectly normal, I have a life outside work, and my weekends are all mine.
I suppose I could also add that Google is the most enlightened employer I have ever had, by far. Oh, and I have a dream job. Thanks Google.
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:3, Informative)
My MS recruiter called me back a few weeks after I turned them down with an offer to interview with Hotmail at the MS campus in Mountain View, which is just a few blocks from Google's main campus. (It's the campus to which most of the Sillicon Valley companies MS buys wind up moving.)
Both MS and Google have offices all over the world. Though I would imagine MS has more.
Re:Advice from a professor... (Score:4, Informative)
Microsoft is notorious for trying to run employees into the ground with continuous 60-hour work weeks, never ending political battles, constant re-orgs, and in general an insane culture so absurd that books have been written about it.
And let's not forget their sexist hiring practices, the thousands upon thousands of "temporary" employees who do all the QA in the nine months before they get hit with the yearly layoff, and the fact that dodging flying chairs becomes a survival instinct.
There's a reason Microsoft is called "the evil empire" - and it's not just because of their products. People who work at Microsoft find it very hard to ever escape, or work at other companies. The psychotic work environment there rots their brain and gives them skills (dodge chair! dodge!) that don't apply at other companies, while ruining any general computer skills they may once have had.
Yes, a person would have to be crazy not to take the job at Google.
There is much more to consider than which company (Score:2, Informative)
There is more to consider than the company. The group that you work for and the city that you live in will have a larger impact on your life.
There has been some concern over hours. At Microsoft you work the hours necessary to get your job done. If you are efficient this should be 8 hour days. I typically work from 7:30 to 4:30 and many of my coworkers work from 9:30 to 6 or so. During crunch times the days get a little longer, but they shouldn't get much longer. Of course this will differ depending on the group. Some people like the environment here and will work longer hours, but that isn't required.
I'd think for a long time about the two areas, and perhaps visit both again if you have a chance. I've spent time in both and would much rather live in Seattle than the Bay Area, but others will disagree. The Seattle area has much cheaper housing. If you want to live in the city instead of suburbs it is more practical to live in Seattle and commute to Redmond than to live in San Francisco and commute to Silicon Valley. Both have excellent outdoor recreational activities (hiking, cycling, skiing, etc).
It sounds like you have two great options.
Conundrum (Score:2, Informative)
Re:That depends on a lot more than you think (Score:3, Informative)
No, not at all. There are offices all over the world and new ones are being created all the time. For instance I'm moving to Zurich in a few months, which from what I've seen is a wonderful city. Sure, MV is a big office but there are also large offices in other parts of America, Dublin, etc.
Well, I will admit that I'm quite new but if there is such pressure it's somehow passed me by. My manager hasn't mentioned this once, there is no culture of "don't be the first to leave" and I routinely see people leaving even at around half 3, though of course they come in early too. If there is pressure to work long hours it's completely invisible in my department.
If your friend is working insane hours I really doubt that's because he is forced to, more likely, he is making himself do it for personal reasons.
Personally, the main reason I considered Google and not Microsoft is due to the ethical histories of the two companies, but also the fact that MS seems to be stagnant and suffering from directionless management right now. Google is, in contrast, anything but stagnant and bureaucratic.
MS Employee's views (Score:2, Informative)
As many of the other posters have mentioned, you need to look at the teams that made offers to you from both Microsoft and Google. Despite Microsoft being a large company, being on a team that you enjoy is what makes all of the difference. I work in the Microsoft Office division and have never felt that I am not making a large difference to the product I am working on. I get to talk to customers once in a while, help with usability studies, decide on new features, and code the new product. The last point there is my main job so I spend most of my time coding and desiging...but I get to help in the process from start to finish and really feel that my opinions are heard and considered when directing the new product. That said, I have been in Office for 5 years and am considering a move to other teams in Microsoft. Microsoft is very understanding here and encourages moves internally so that an employee doesn't become bored and burnt out with their current product.
I find that I work with extremely smart people every day here and I get to work on programs which are used by millions of people (which is usually a good thing
The benefits are great at both companies...the employees are smart...the products are new and exciting to work on...the flex hours are great so I can have both a life and a career.
Basically, it is going to come down to the teams you have offers from. Look at them closely and consider which product seems more intersting and has a better feel for you and your passions. If you think the Google teams are better aligned with you, go there and have a great career. If you think the Microsoft teams are better for you, come here and have a great career.
Microsoft NO! Google YES (Score:4, Informative)
I have a pretty good friend working at Google, and I queried her about how it was there. She wrote up a little piece on her blog [glaak.com] on the differences between Google and Microsoft and why she chose Google. She loves it there working on Google Talk, and the 80/20 rule is strictly enforced. She has also experienced that it is not a grueling work schedule, but in fact a joy to do your work there and the 20% is a nice thing to look forward to in a given week as well.
I'm now at a financial company in NYC doing
Re:Dunno about MS, but that's not true about Googl (Score:3, Informative)
That's fine. Corporate salaries aren't a zero-sum game. And I'm happy you have a job you like that pays well. But I don't really do what I do for the money. As long as my family's needs are met (with a little extra for toys and savings), then I'm happy. I do my job because I find the work interesting and rewarding, and I find working with smart people to be enjoyable. Hence, I like where I work.
there is *always* work that "needs to be done". If that is going to be your excuse, why do you ever go home? When you are done with one project isn't there *always* something else you *could* be working on? "needs to be done" is a BAD excuse, because it does NOT *need* to be done. Unless you will actually save lives by working those extra four hours, then that work can, in fact, wait for tomorrow.
Oh, be serious. You're grossly overstating my point and undersimplifying the issue. While it's true that the bulk of my work load (and therefore my hours) is self-determined, the reality is that I also have coworkers. I work with them on one or more teams, and together we accomplish smaller tasks which contibute to the success of the overall project. And it's also true that sometimes dates are set which have to be met. I do what needs to be done in order to succeed. If I have to work over a weekend once in a while, put in a few long nights, then I do.
What I meant originally was that my managers don't pile on extra work or set unreasonable deadlines and expect 80 hour weeks. That isn't to say that I haven't worked an 80 hour week or two recently, because I have. I did so by choice, because I didn't want to risk letting my team down (and I was trying some new things). But that's the exception to the rule, by far. Normally, I'd say I put in between 40-50 hours. Sometimes I get an itch that needs scratching adn wind up doing some work from home at night or whatever. But I do that because I like what I do, not because I'm a wage slave struggling under the bootheel of The Man.
-B
Re:Dunno about MS, but that's not true about Googl (Score:3, Informative)
I haven't seen any of that here, to be honest. I've been on the working end of such dictates before, and I'm pretty sensitive to such things nowadays. For sure the folks here are pretty well motivated and dedicated, but there's also a level of autonomy (at the individual engineer level) which would probably cause to the engineer being worked to death to call shenanigans. It would probably boil down to the engineer saying something like "That's not a reasonable request which doesn't fit into the task list you and I ahve already worked out and agreed on, so please refigure your dates and get back to me".
But the thing you need to realize is that more likely than not, the person saying "this is due in two weeks" has not only decided on that date after talking with all his coders, but he's also probably spending half his day coding as well.
I guess what I'm saying is that the process by which statements like "this is due in two weeks" are generated doesn't really exist here. There are deadlines and such, but they are derived less obtusely than that. Things tend to go from the individual coder on up.
I understand that at Google the motivation to work comes from you, not from the management (at least, not directly), but if that still translates into the same work hours, then maybe life at MS is better.
I can't say how it compares to MS, never having worked there. But you can work a normal 40 hour week (using the free shuttles that take you all over the bay area are good for keeping you on track, as it "forces" you to leave at 5:40 or whatever) or as many hours as you want. Also, a lot of people work from home (one manager always seems to send mail shortly after 10pm; probably she's done with dinner, kids are in bed, she's checking up on work email for the morning).
But I can say that the "life" here is pretty good. I'm sure MS is very nice, but I couldn't imagine better perks, or a better company to work for. The level of caring for and understanding of the employees continues to be very refreshing.
Basically, how many engineers at Google really do keep regular hours all the time ? I'd like to know the answer, just to satisfy my curiosity.
I'd say not keeping regular hours is by far the exception rather than the rule. We have some guys on weird schedules who come in at noon and work until 11pm or whatever. The hours are intentionally very flexible so they can do that. However, the parking lot starts emptying at about the usual time, and fills up in the morning like you'd expect at any other company. The notion of several thousand people putting in 18 hour days, day and day out, is a complete myth. Some people put in long hours, but it's neither required nor expected.
Though like I said earlier, if you come in on a weekend, you will see people coding. But they're also probably just getting some work done until their laundry is finished. :-)
-B
Seattle Area (Score:2, Informative)