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Journal benhocking's Journal: What liberal media? 46

Head over to ABC News Politics Index and you'll find 4 stories (all posted today) on the Political Radar sidebar about John Kerry's "botched joke". The pre-released text (as in released prior to him making the gaffe) makes it quite clear that it was, indeed, a botched joke. What I find odd, however, is that there are 4 stories in a row about it. If this was George W. Bush, Cheney, or some other prominent Republican, I'm certain a number of people would be making comments about the liberal mainstream media. I just bring this up to help lift the selective perception bias of those who really believe in the myth of a liberal mainstream media. (Yes, I'm familiar with the study that found that the mainstream media tends to cite "liberal" think tanks more than "conservative" think tanks. That study did not take into account, however, that the "liberal" think tanks might just have more validity than the "conservative" ("We call it life") think tanks.)

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What liberal media?

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  • by Chacham ( 981 )
    A) When accepted that someone is good, making a joke that he botched a joke goes over well.
    B) One incident does not break a trend.
    C) It is not an ad hominem attack, saying "therefore" he must be an idiot.
    • A) Not sure what you're saying here. Who is someone? Who is saying they're good? Who is making a joke about the botched joke?
      B) True, nor is this the "exception" that proves the rule. However, let's examine the conjecture that Fox News has a conservative bias. Can you find a similar contra-example where they've repeatedly rehashed a story that shines a negative light on conservatives? (Not counting, of course, conservatives that are "not conservative enough".) I just don't buy that the media has any more o
      • by Chacham ( 981 )
        Who is someone?

        Kerry.

        Who is saying they're good?

        A story about a bocthed joked can be good humor about someone we all love. Or another rip against someone we all hate.

        However, let's examine the conjecture that Fox News has a conservative bias.

        I do not believe that to be true. They are neutral newswise, conservative in opinions, and liberal in features.

        I just don't buy that the media has any more of a liberal bias than reality does.

        The studies have shown that it is true. Media reporters vote liberal, at a hig
        • A story about a bocthed joked can be good humor about someone we all love. Or another rip against someone we all hate.

          Absolutely. Even if I liked Kerry, I'd have no problem laughing at his gaffe. It's when 4 stories in a row were about the topic that it clearly became overboard. Not that the media doesn't do this with a lot of stories (e.g., OJ, Jon Benet Ramsey, etc.). My point is that if this were about a Republican candidate, numerous people would be blaming it on the media being liberal instead of just

          • by Chacham ( 981 )
            Wow, you sure do respond well. :)

            It's when 4 stories in a row were about the topic that it clearly became overboard.

            Could be. Then again, some news sites post the same story more than once until they compile everything together. If that was the only point, i'd overlook it if it wasn't a trend.

            I don't watch them very often (for one thing, I don't have cable)

            I never watch. I don't have a TV. :) (I used to watch them, however.)

            there was a story about the ACLU <snip> So, I did a little research of my own
            • OK, let's play a little game. I'll make an ad hominem attack, and you try to imagine which party I sound the most like (not all answers go to one party):
              1. My opponent is a racist
              2. My opponent hates America
              3. My opponent is a misogynist
              4. My opponent is a womanizer
              5. My opponent is a flip-flopper
              6. My opponent is a [insert adjective here] liberal
              7. My opponent did drugs
              8. My opponent evaded military service

              All of these have been said in the last few years, and a few of them by both parties. But which party does

              • by Chacham ( 981 )
                Ooh, a game. :)

                racist D
                hates America R
                misogynist D
                womanizer R
                flip-flopper R
                liberal R
                opponent did drugs R/D
                evaded military service R/D

                These are ads, not fights over issues. Both R and Ds are horrid here. Dole was proven to be a hypocrite on this one too.

                Many of these (if not all), of course, could be considered relevant to one's performance in office, but I think that's the point of ad hominem attacks, isn't it? Feel free to add your own, as well.

                Political races are different. It's a popularity contest. They
                • These are ads, not fights over issues.

                  Fair enough. My other post addresses issues. However, it doesn't necessarily address politicians per se, but the general populace. I'm afraid I've never watched C-SPAN having never had cable, and it never being on when I'm at a friend's house who does have cable. However, speaking for myself, I often use my judgment of someone's credibility as a useful guideline for whether or not to take too much time trying to wade through their arguments. There are far too many arg

                  • by Chacham ( 981 )
                    True, d hominem does make sense in that case. Though that is not the general form in which it is employed.

                    And wow, you post a lot. :)
            • Mostly, i believe Republicans to be logical, and bring in feelings second. Conversely, Democrats are feelers, and bring in logic second.

              My first reaction when I read this was a "wha??", and it took me a while to get over the shock before I could come up with a proper response. First of all, I think it's fairly well accepted (and let me know if you disagree) that most Americans (and, more generally, most people) are more influenced by emotional arguments than logical arguments. Karl Rove has figured this

              • by Chacham ( 981 )
                First of all, I think it's fairly well accepted (and let me know if you disagree) that most Americans (and, more generally, most people) are more influenced by emotional arguments than logical arguments

                Yes. The Meyers/Brigg's numbers for T/F were mostly

                T/F (Logic/Values)
                Men: 60/40
                Women: 70/30

                Add that to more women, and we get that most people vote on emotions. Of course, given the subset of people who vote, this is not as true. Logical people tend to vote more, so Democrats always want more people to vote.
                • Evolution has never been proven. It's a nice theory, just like Creationism.

                  True, it's a nice theory and it has never been proven, just like general relativity, quantum mechanics, and every other theory in science. False, it is not just like Creationism. Creationism:

                  • Is not falsifiable.
                  • Has made no useful contributions to other fields of math and/or science.

                  That you would equate Evolution and Creationism suggests that perhaps we're more different than I would have thought. (This is not meant to be an in

                  • by Chacham ( 981 )
                    just like general relativity, quantum mechanics, and every other theory in science.

                    Except, general relativity explains what everyone already agrees on, quantum mechanics is more a hypothesis than a theory, and other theories may or may not have detractors. Evolution is different in that the theory came before the facts (which were never found, so the theory as reorded to fot the then found facts) and it has many detractors, for a variety of reasons.

                    Plus. other theories explain what is, evolution explains wh
                    • I'm assuming you're playing devil's advocate (pardon the expression here), but I'll go along.

                      Except, general relativity explains what everyone already agrees on, quantum mechanics is more a hypothesis than a theory, and other theories may or may not have detractors. Evolution is different in that the theory came before the facts (which were never found, so the theory as reorded to fot the then found facts) and it has many detractors, for a variety of reasons.

                      Plus. other theories explain what is, evolut

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      I'm assuming you're playing devil's advocate (pardon the expression here), but I'll go along.

                      I'm not. I'm challenging your assumptions, which you then use as a basis for other beliefs.

                      I'm going to be terse here, for lack of time. Please excuse me, if something needs more details, i shall try to provide it over the weekend.

                      general relativity does more than just explain what everyone agrees on

                      But that is where it starts. And that sound basis makes it less challenging to people.

                      With respect to quantum mechanic
                    • "With respect to quantum mechanics, I'm not sure why you're calling it more a hypothesis than a theory."

                      Because there is little to no evidense for it, and from what i have been told, it has *many* detractors. It's a fantastic hypothesis though, and many (even its detractors) want to see it progress into something more acceptable (in whichever way that may be done).

                      Perhaps you're thinking of string theory? QM is just as mainstream as GR. I am not aware of *any* detractors (let alone *many*) - except to

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Perhaps you're thinking of string theory? QM is just as mainstream as GR. I am not aware of *any* detractors (let alone *many*) - except to the degree that it is an incomplete theory as I previously mentioned.

                      I simply do not know. Like most things, i must rely on heresay until greater evidense is produced.

                      QM is the basis for many wonderful tools in everyday use around us. The computer you're typing on wouldn't be possible without a solid understanding of QM. (Earlier computers didn't depend on QM, but moder
                    • Einstein clearly did not invent the idea of relativity. The Theory of Relativity (or whatever it was called, i vaguely remember two guys and a boat experiement with speed and size) already existed. He took it to the next step. Darwin invented it. Whether he used other ideas out there is irrelevant. There was no Evolution before him, there was afterwards. He created evolution. (pun intended, so ha!)

                      Prior to Einstein's paper "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" [fourmilab.ch], the world had Galileo's theory of rela

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Einstein's proposition was so radical that although he received the Nobel Prize in Physics for his studies of the photoelectric effect (ironically, a quantum effect), the Nobel committee was loathe to give him an award because of his work on relativity.

                      But the idea was there. Plus, he was explaining everyday things. Yes, his explanation was new, but

                      As for evolution, prior to Darwin, Lucretius wrote a poem describing his version of evolution in 60 BC, and he didn't exactly invent the idea himself.

                      What, that
                    • "P.S. I just came back from a talk by Richard Dawkins. Somehow, I don't think you would have approved of it, but he did make several interesting points."

                      Hey, i've got no problem with research and theories. Just people who present their prefrences as being better than others' preferences.

                      As I said, I don't think you would have approved of it... Evidently, religion is a mental illness! (His words, not mine!) Although to be fair, I'm certain he would not want to make it illegal, if that's any consolation

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Evidently, religion is a mental illness!

                      Sounds like he is runing away from himself. A mature person has no need for such statements.

                      You two would be very much in agreement over most (if not all) tenets of libertarianism.

                      To me, first and foremost, is respect for others as people. That means, they can believe whatever they want, even if they are wrong, and we respect their choice (not the choice itself, but they're making of the choice). If he doesn't have that, i don't care to listen to him even if we agreed
                    • To me, first and foremost, is respect for others as people. That means, they can believe whatever they want, even if they are wrong, and we respect their choice (not the choice itself, but they're making of the choice). If he doesn't have that, i don't care to listen to him even if we agreed on everything else.

                      For the most part, I agree with you. However, the tricky part is deciding whether or not you want to respect others' beliefs that it is OK not to respect others' beliefs. (Key word here (x2) is "r

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      FHowever, the tricky part is deciding whether or not you want to respect others' beliefs that it is OK not to respect others' beliefs. (Key word here (x2) is "respect", not just allow. Obviously, we would allow it.)

                      Not respect their beliefs. Respect them in their right to believe whatever they want. And not just "allow" them their beliefs. *Respect* their right to belive anything they choose to believe. To me, that is the essence of respecting another. Respecting them even when they are different, and diffe
                  • by Chacham ( 981 )
                    Creationism:

                    * Is not falsifiable.


                    BTW, i'd just like to add that Creationism is falsiable. If time travel is possible, and we go back in time, we can watch whether it did or did not happen.

                    Evolution is similar, though harder to prove or disprove, being it does not depend on a specific event happening at a specific time, we'd have to watch all of time pretty much and be able to claim no pivotal events for disproof, or a mutation and proliferation for proof.

                    Perhaps with your statem
                    • BTW, i'd just like to add that Creationism is falsiable. If time travel is possible, and we go back in time, we can watch whether it did or did not happen.

                      Well, given the causality principle [time-loops.net] (forgive the cheesy link), I'd argue that makes Creationism not falsifiable.

                      Evolution is similar, though harder to prove or disprove, being it does not depend on a specific event happening at a specific time, we'd have to watch all of time pretty much and be able to claim no pivotal events for disproof, or a mutat

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Well, given the causality principle (forgive the cheesy link), I'd argue that makes Creationism not falsifiable.

                      Well, shoots. I thought for sure you'd entertain time travel. :) I do not believe it possible either.

                      The differnce here is that evolution makes predictions about future observations we're likely to see.

                      Not really. Firstly, evolution is an explanation of things past. The future part is secondary, and not essential to the ultimate theory. Secondly, even if fossils were not found, they would simply b
                    • "What would happen if you killed Cain before he could kill Abel?"

                      You'd be tried for post-meditated murder. Just think of what happened when the former killed the latter.

                      My first thought was that such an act might result in the 7 generations prior to your birth being smited or smoten, or whatever. Then, I decided to actually read the Bible to refresh my memory on the whole thing, and I got this:
                      "Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold."

                      In my memory that was seven

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      In my memory that was seven generations, but it's not. What exactly would sevenfold vengeance for murder be

                      The Midrash teaches us that he was killed in the seventh generation by Lamech (by accident). That is what lamech is saying in 4:23, and how 4:24 has any relevence.

                      back in the Old Testament eye-for-an-eye legal system?

                      The Oral Law explains eye-for-an-eye means monetary equivalence.
                    • You seem to know quite a bit about the Midrash. I'd never even heard of it before you mentioned it. I just did a little Google search, and it seems to be related to the Talmud (which I had heard of, but am not very familiar with). Is there a good on-line Midrash source? The best I found is this encyclopedic entry [1911encyclopedia.org], but I'm somewhat suspicious of a web encyclopedia I'd never heard of before.
                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      It's hard to say. I don't know if any appear online. The Midrash refers to one of the four major styles of Bible Study, and books have been written at a variety of periods that qualify.

                      Usually, however, there are just a small number of major Midrashic works, two prime ones being the Midrash Rabbah and Midrash Tanchuma. The Tanchuma was written by Rabbi Tonchuma, also mentioned in the Talmud. The Midrash Rabbah was written throught the ages. The one for Genesis was written by Rabbi Oshaya Rabbah, a sage of t
                    • I don't have enough of a background to completely appreciate everything you've told me, but I have read quite a bit of the Bible (I've tried to read it straight through, but haven't succeeded). My Jewish history is quite limited, however. Still, I do find it interesting.

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      I don't have enough of a background to completely appreciate everything you've told me, but I have read quite a bit of the Bible (I've tried to read it straight through, but haven't succeeded).

                      The Bible on its own, can be very hard to understand, especially if not read in Hebrew. The idiosynchrasies of certain phrases or words mean too much and do not carry over into another language very well. Together with a terse verse added/missing letters, reading it outside of Hebrew is missing half the story.

                      Then aga
                • On global warming, where do the facts reside?

                  There has been massive debate over this. For two reasons.

                  1) The original numbers were not factual (they were guesses, and like evolution, some numbers fit in later)
                  2) Noone has proven that it is a "Bad Thing". The badness is only theoretical.

                  Anyway, i don't think people have a problem with that. It is a concern, many will admit. However, the next step is giving more control to a governing authority. And that is something conservatives loathe. So, they p

                  • by Chacham ( 981 )
                    What no scientist has ever disagreed with (to the best of my knowledge is):

                    Don't forget, that CO2, also helps forests grow, as the pores on the leaves can now open less.

                    There are debates as to whether this will be a serious problem in 20 years or 200 years.

                    And pointers that these high levels have happened before.

                    By the way, I assume you're old enough to remember when the deniers liked to deny that global warming was happening at all. Now they like to pretend that global warming is undeniable, but the caus
                    • Don't forget, that CO2, also helps forests grow, as the pores on the leaves can now open less.

                      Have you been watching CEI's propaganda? ("CO2: they call it pollution, we call it life") Actually, there's been some recent research that suggests that too much CO2 is bad for most flora that's in existence today.

                      "There are debates as to whether this will be a serious problem in 20 years or 200 years."

                      And pointers that these high levels have happened before.

                      But never as rapidly as it has now, and never wit

                    • Don't forget, that CO2, also helps forests grow, as the pores on the leaves can now open less.

                      You might be interested in this link [sciencedaily.com], btw. (Let me know if you don't have access to it. Being at a university, I'm never quite sure whether other people will be able to access my links.)

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Actually, there's been some recent research that suggests that too much CO2 is bad for most flora that's in existence today.

                      Search google for "israel forest co2" [google.com]. That is what i based the statement on.

                      Another thing I've never understood about the "has happened before" argument is this: if Bob said he was going to kill Alice, would it comfort Alice to know that people had died before? Just because there have been mass exctinctions in the past, should we not be concerned that we're going to be mainly responsi
                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Very interesting. While it shows that CO2 increases growth by one-third, if other things increase with it, water, temperature, and nitrogen, it'll be reduced by about one-tenth (5.5 to 4.9).

                      So, we can either control CO2, and keep everything the same, or make sure we don't increase water, heat and nitrogen and get more.

                      The study title is misleading though. It blames it on CO2. That isn't true. CO2 ups the ante, it is the other factors that either raise or lower it.

                      Thanx for the link!
                • Further, they have no real world experiences, and are used to the socialist fashions of the collegic world. (School provides, research is paid for and public, etc)

                  I'm guessing you haven't spent a significant amount of time in academia, and are using things you've heard to draw false conclusions. Specifically, with respect to the comment "School provides, research is paid for and public, etc)", how is that any different than "[the company] provides, research is paid for and public, etc)"? If you're a prof

                  • by Chacham ( 981 )
                    I'm guessing you haven't spent a significant amount of time in academia, and are using things you've heard to draw false conclusions.

                    I spent very little time there, but i have a few friends who spent a good amount of time there.

                    "School provides, research is paid for and public, etc)", how is that any different than "[the company] provides, research is paid for and public, etc)"?

                    Because when a school provides, the researcher choses what to research, researches with much less constraints, as he just has to sh
                    • How does "real-world experience" correspond to whether or not homosexuals should be allowed to marry?

                      Marriage is a religious thing, as such, only religions should define it. If the state wants to recognise a union of two people, so be it. However, the way the laws currently are, marriage is a religious institution being governed by law.

                      So, you ask, how does real-world experience help? Real world exerience tells the law to get out of religous things in the first place. If the government recgnized unions

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      EXACTLY! And every "liberal" I know feels EXACTLY the SAME WAY! The only ones I know of who want the government involved are "conservatives"! Are things really that different in your neck of the woods?

                      I guess things are different here. Liberals want to control people's lives with restrictions. They are against marriage, so they demand the government take care of it (and then destroy it). Most conservatives i know would rather the giovernment keeps its hands out of religious matters.

                      you'll find out just how
                    • Assuming they vote Democrat in college, the question is do they change when they leave, and if so, how long does it take.

                      Because of that, putting together the age at which a person normally gets such a degree, and then gets hired, and then include the "real world" in his belief structure, the subset might have to be oldert than normal subsets.

                      It was an exit poll study [cnn.com]. They asked people who they voted for (Kerry or Bush) and how much education they had. So, that includes that vast majority of people w

                    • by Chacham ( 981 )
                      Wow, very ncie link, thanx. :)

                      BTW, note the first "VOTE BY AGE" section how at one's thirties the number changes. That's the point i was making. And "VOTE BY INCOME", assuming that a Ph.D. hold with a non-collegic job will get more than 50k a year.

                      "VOTE BY IDEOLOGY" is best. 45% consider themselves moderate, and they voted nearly down the middle (relative to the other two). :)
                    • BTW, note the first "VOTE BY AGE" section how at one's thirties the number changes. That's the point i was making

                      I say "nitpicking" because I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise; however, this is a cross-sectional study [wikipedia.org] and not a longitudinal study [wikipedia.org], so it does not necessarily support your claim. (There's enough other evidence out there, I'd imagine, that does support your claim, however.)

                    • I was looking at it again, and the oddest one has to be the one labeled "VOTE IF ONLY BUSH AND KERRY WERE RUNNING". I guess it just proves that either at least 1-2% of the people are idiots/having fun at the poller's expense.

Physician: One upon whom we set our hopes when ill and our dogs when well. -- Ambrose Bierce

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