Businesses

China Woos Western Tech Talent in Race for Chip Supremacy (msn.com) 82

Chinese companies are aggressively recruiting foreign tech talent as a key strategy to gain technological supremacy, prompting national security concerns across Western nations and Asia, WSJ reported Wednesday, citing multiple intelligence officials and corporate sources. The campaign focuses particularly on advanced semiconductor expertise, with companies like Huawei offering triple salaries to employees at critical firms like Zeiss SMT and ASML, which produce essential components for cutting-edge chip manufacturing.

These recruitment efforts intensified after Western export controls restricted China's access to advanced technology. While Taiwan and South Korea have implemented strict countermeasures, including criminal penalties for illegal talent transfers, the U.S. and Europe struggle to balance open labor markets with national security concerns.

Chinese firms often obscure their origins through local ventures and persistent recruitment tactics. The strategy has shown results: Former employees have helped Chinese companies advance their technological capabilities, including SMIC's development of 7nm chips with help from ex-TSMC talent.
Cellphones

Huawei's Mate 70 Smartphones Will Run Its New Android-Free OS (theverge.com) 80

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Verge: Huawei has announced its new Mate 70 series smartphone lineup, which will be the first offered with the company's new HarmonyOS Next operating system that doesn't rely on Google's Android services and won't run any Android apps, according to a report by Reuters. The four models of the Mate 70 also don't feature any US hardware following a half decade of US sanctions.

The Mate 70, Mate 70 Pro, Mate 70 Pro Plus, and Mate 70 RS will also be offered with Huawei's HarmonyOS 4.3, which first launched in August 2019 as an alternative to Google's Android OS and is still compatible with Android's extensive app library. Users who decide to opt for Huawei's new Android-free HarmonyOS Next will have less choice when it comes to the apps they can install. Huawei says it has "secured more than 15,000 applications for its HarmonyOS ecosystem, with plans to expand to 100,000 apps in the coming months," according to Reuters.

Starting next year, Huawei also says all the new phones and tablets it launches in 2025 will run HarmonyOS Next. [...] Huawei hasn't confirmed what processors are being used in the Mate 70 lineup, but the company has previously used chips made by China's SMIC for last year's Mate 60 series and other smartphones.

United States

US To Reportedly Sanction 200 More Chinese Chip Firms (tomshardware.com) 82

The U.S. is preparing to impose new sanctions targeting 200 Chinese chipmakers and potentially restricting the export of High Bandwidth Memory (HBM). The move is intended to further hinder China's semiconductor and AI advancements. Tom's Hardware reports: The update sheds light on the Biden administration's recent efforts to impose stricter regulations on chip manufacturers in China. The latest swarm of sanctions reportedly targets roughly 200 Chinese firms. US companies are prohibited from exporting select technologies or products to the targeted firms. The report suggests that the US Department of Commerce aims to push these new regulations before the Thanksgiving break - or November 28. Neither the Department of Commerce nor the Chamber of Commerce responded to Reuters' request for comments.

Moreover, another wave of sanctions is set to follow in December - targeting the export of HBM (High Bandwidth Memory) - primarily to choke China's advance in the AI domain. The impacts of these restrictions are materializing given that Huawei's Kirin SoCs and Ascend AI accelerators will reportedly remain stuck at 7nm technology until 2026 as SMIC fails to procure cutting-edge Extreme Ultraviolet (EUV) machines from ASML.

China

Apple's Upcoming Ultra-Slim iPhone Hits Roadblock Over SIM Tray Rules 118

Apple's upcoming slim iPhone model faces potential sales obstacles in China due to design limitations that prevent fitting a physical SIM card tray, which is mandatory in the Chinese market.

The new device, planned for release next fall, measures 5-6 millimeters thick compared to the iPhone 16's 7.8mm, The Information reported Monday [non-paywalled source]. The company aims to revitalize iPhone sales in China, where revenue has declined for three consecutive years amid competition from Huawei and Vivo. The thin iPhone relies on embedded SIMs (eSIMs), which Chinese regulators haven't yet approved for smartphone use. Engineers are also struggling with battery placement and thermal management in the slim design, the report added.
China

How America's Export Controls Failed to Keep Cutting-Edge AI Chips from China's Huawei (stripes.com) 40

An anonymous reader shared this report from the Washington Post: A few weeks ago, analysts at a specialized technological lab put a microchip from China under a powerful microscope. Something didn't look right... The microscopic proof was there that a chunk of the electronic components from Chinese high-tech champion Huawei Technologies had been produced by the world's most advanced chipmaker, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company.

That was a problem because two U.S. administrations in succession had taken actions to assure that didn't happen. The news of the breach of U.S. export controls, first reported in October by the tech news site the Information, has sent a wave of concern through Washington... The chips were routed to Huawei through Sophgo Technologies, the AI venture of a Chinese cryptocurrency billionaire, according to two people familiar with the matter, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive topic... "It raises some fundamental questions about how well we can actually enforce these rules," said Emily Kilcrease, a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security in Washington... Taiwan's Ministry of Economic Affairs confirmed that TSMC recently halted shipments to a "certain customer" and notified the United States after suspecting that customer might have directed its products to Huawei...

There's been much intrigue in recent days in the industry over how the crypto billionaire's TSMC-made chips reportedly ended up at Huawei. Critics accuse Sophgo of working to help Huawei evade the export controls, but it is also possible that they were sold through an intermediary, which would align with Sophgo's denial of having any business relationship with Huawei... While export controls are often hard to enforce, semiconductors are especially hard to manage due to the large and open nature of the global chip trade. Since the Biden administration implemented sweeping controls in 2022, there have been reports of widespread chip smuggling and semiconductor black markets allowing Chinese companies to access necessary chips...

Paul Triolo, technology policy lead at Albright Stonebridge Group, said companies were trying to figure out what lengths they had to go to for due diligence: "The guidelines are murky."

Android

Huawei Makes Divorce From Android Official With HarmonyOS NEXT Launch (theregister.com) 67

The Register's Laura Dobberstein reports: Huawei formally launched its home-brewed operating system, HarmonyOS NEXT, on Wednesday, marking its official separation from the Android ecosystem. Huawei declared it released and "officially started public beta testing" of the OS for some of its smartphones and tablets that run its own Kirin and Kunpeng chips.

Unlike previous iterations of HarmonyOS, HarmonyOS NEXT no longer supports Android apps. Huawei maintains top Chinese outfits aren't deterred by that. It cited Meituan, Douyin, Taobao, Xiaohongshu, Alipay, and JD.com as among those who have developed native apps for the OS. In case you're not familiar, they're China's top shopping, payment, and social media apps.

Huawei also claimed that at the time of its announcement, over 15,000 HarmonyOS native applications and meta-services were also launched. That's a nice number, but well short of the millions of apps found on the Google Play Store and Apple's App Store. The Chinese tech player also revealed that the operating system has 110 million lines of code and claimed it improves the overall performance of mobile devices running it by 30 percent. It also purportedly increases battery life by 56 minutes and leaves an average of 1.5GB of memory for purposes other than running the OS.

China

China Trained a 1-Trillion-Parameter LLM Using Only Domestic Chips (theregister.com) 52

"China Telecom, one of the largest wireless carriers in mainland China, says that it has developed two large language models (LLMs) relying solely on domestically manufactured AI chips..." reports Tom's Hardware. "If the information is accurate, this is a crucial milestone in China's attempt at becoming independent of other countries for its semiconductor needs, especially as the U.S. is increasingly tightening and banning the supply of the latest, highest-end chips for Beijing in the U.S.-China chip war." Huawei, which has mostly been banned from the U.S. and other allied countries, is one of the leaders in China's local chip industry... If China Telecom's LLMs were indeed fully trained using Huawei chips alone, then this would be a massive success for Huawei and the Chinese government.
The project's GitHub page "contains a hint about how China Telecom may have trained the model," reports the Register, "in a mention of compatibility with the 'Ascend Atlas 800T A2 training server' — a Huawei product listed as supporting the Kunpeng 920 7265 or Kunpeng 920 5250 processors, respectively running 64 cores at 3.0GHz and 48 cores at 2.6GHz. Huawei builds those processors using the Arm 8.2 architecture and bills them as produced with a 7nm process."

The South China Morning Post says the unnamed model has 1 trillion parameters, according to China Telecom, while the TeleChat2t-115B model has over 100 billion parameters.

Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader hackingbear for sharing the news.
Iphone

The End of the iPhone Upgrade? 96

An anonymous reader shares a New Yorker story: Ultimately, the iPhone 16 does little to meaningfully improve on the experience I had with the 12, besides, perhaps, charging with a USB-C, as my laptop does, cutting down on the number of cords I have to keep track of. Instead, the greatest leaps in Apple's hardware are largely directed at those niche users who are already invested in using tools such as artificial intelligence and virtual reality. The company has announced that, within a month or so, the new phones will be able to operate its proprietary artificial-intelligence system, which means that users may soon be relying on A.I. to perform daily personal tasks, like navigating their calendars or responding to e-mails. The 15 and 16 Pros can take three-dimensional photos, designed for V.R., using the Apple Vision Pro. Thus far, I don't use A.I. tools or V.R. with any frequency and have no intention of doing so on my iPhone.

The fact that I do not need an iPhone 16 is a testament not so much to the iPhone's failure as to its resounding success. A lot of the digital software we rely on has grown worse for users in recent years; the iPhone, by contrast, has become so good that it's hard to imagine anything but incremental improvements. Apple's teleological phone-design strategy may have simply reached its end point, the same way evolution in nature has repeatedly resulted in an optimized species of crab. Other tech companies, meanwhile, are embracing radical departures in phone design. Samsung offers devices that fold in half, creating a smaller screen that's useful for minor tasks, such as texting, and a larger one for watching videos; Huawei is upping the ante with three folds. The BOOX Palma has become a surprise hit as a smartphone-ish device with an e-ink screen, similar to Amazon's Kindle, which uses physical pixels in its display. Dumbphones, too, are growing more popular by intentionally doing less. Apple devices, by contrast, remain effective enough that they can afford to be somewhat static.
China

China's Huawei Shows the World Its $2,800 'Trifold' Phone 66

An anonymous reader shares a report: Over successive administrations, the U.S. government has used stiff trade restrictions to try to stifle the Chinese telecom giant Huawei. In turn, the company never misses an opportunity to show that it is still standing. Last year, at the tail end of a visit to China by Gina Raimondo, the U.S. commerce secretary, Huawei unveiled a smartphone that was powered by an advanced semiconductor made in China. The chip was exactly the kind of technology that the United States, in an effort led by Ms. Raimondo, had tried to prevent China from developing.

The Huawei phone, called the Mate 60 Pro, was heralded in China as the triumph of a national champion over American constraints. It sold out within minutes on Chinese e-commerce platforms. Many shoppers chose to pair their purchase with a phone case emblazoned with a photo of Ms. Raimondo's face. In the Chinese tech hub of Shenzhen on Tuesday, Huawei again made a bid for the spotlight with the announcement of a new device just hours after Apple introduced its iPhone 16 in California. Huawei's latest phone, the Mate XT, is heavy on novelty: It can be folded, twice [non-paywalled source].

The tablet-size device folds along two vertical seams to become the size of a typical phone. It is the first commercially available trifold smartphone. It comes in two colors, red and black, and will go on sale on Sept. 20. "It's a piece of work that everyone has thought of but never managed to create," said Richard Yu, Huawei's consumer group chairman. "I have always had a dream to put our tablet in my pocket, and we did it." The Mate XT, with a screen that measures 10.2 inches diagonally, is equipped with artificial intelligence-enabled translation, messaging and photo editing features. Mr. Yu also unveiled a thin keyboard that folds in half to the same size as the phone. He showed the audience how he carried both together in the pocket of his suit jacket. Starting at $2,800, the Mate XT is priced like a luxury product.
China

One Nation Mostly Unaffected by the Crowdstrike Outage: China (bbc.com) 49

The BBC reports that "while most of the world was grappling with the blue screen of death on Friday," there was one country that managed to escape largely unscathed: China. The reason is actually quite simple: CrowdStrike is hardly used there. Very few organisations will buy software from an American firm that, in the past, has been vocal about the cyber-security threat posed by Beijing. Additionally, China is not as reliant on Microsoft as the rest of the world. Domestic companies such as Alibaba, Tencent and Huawei are the dominant cloud providers.

So reports of outages in China, when they did come, were mainly at foreign firms or organisations. On Chinese social media sites, for example, some users complained they were not able to check into international chain hotels such as Sheraton, Marriott and Hyatt in Chinese cities. Over recent years, government organisations, businesses and infrastructure operators have increasingly been replacing foreign IT systems with domestic ones. Some analysts like to call this parallel network the "splinternet".

"It's a testament to China's strategic handling of foreign tech operations," says Josh Kennedy White, a cybersecurity expert based in Singapore. "Microsoft operates in China through a local partner, 21Vianet, which manages its services independently of its global infrastructure. This setup insulates China's essential services — like banking and aviation — from global disruptions."

"Beijing sees avoiding reliance on foreign systems as a way of shoring up national security."

Thanks to long-time Slashdot reader hackingbear for sharing the article.
Iphone

iPhone Upgrades - Not Android Switchers - Drive Apple Sales, Bernstein Says 68

In a new analysis, research firm Bernstein challenges the conventional wisdom surrounding Apple's iPhone sales fluctuations, arguing that perceived market share shifts between Apple and Android devices are largely illusory. The report, which Bernstein sent to its clients, contends that the majority of iPhone buyers are existing users upgrading their devices, rather than switchers from Android platforms.

Bernstein posits that year-to-year changes in iPhone unit sales are predominantly driven by Apple's upgrade rates within its established user base. This dynamic creates the appearance of significant market share gains or losses, particularly in China, where consumers are highly sensitive to new features. The analyst notes that upgrade cycles in China tend to be more pronounced than in other markets, leading to exaggerated perceptions of market share volatility. He suggests that the company's struggles in the region are more likely attributed to poor upgrade rates within its existing customer base rather than a mass exodus to competitors like Huawei.
China

Germany To Remove Huawei From Mobile Networks (reuters.com) 17

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Reuters: The German government and mobile phone carriers have agreed in principle on steps to phase components by Chinese technology companies out of the nation's 5G wireless network over the next five years, two people familiar with the matter told Reuters on Wednesday. Newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung as well as broadcasters NDR and WDR earlier jointly reported the news, saying the agreement gives network operators Deutsche Telekom, Vodafone, and Telefonica Deutschland more time to replace critical parts. Under the preliminary agreement driven by security considerations, operators will initially rid the country's core network of 5G data centers of technology made by companies such as Huawei and ZTE in 2026, said the sources, adding that a final pact has yet to be signed. In a second phase, the role of Chinese makers' parts for antennas, transmission lines and towers should be all but eliminated by 2029, they added. "The government is acting on the basis of the national security strategy and China strategy to reduce possible security risks and dependencies," said a spokesperson for Germany's interior ministry.
China

Microsoft Orders China Staff To Use iPhones for Work and Drop Android (bloomberg.com) 44

Microsoft told employees in China that from September they'll only be able to use iPhones for work, effectively cutting off Android-powered devices from the workplace. Bloomberg: The US company will soon require Chinese-based employees to use only Apple devices to verify their identities when logging in to work computers or phones, according to an internal memo reviewed by Bloomberg News. The measure, part of Microsoft's global Secure Future Initiative, will affect hundreds of workers across the Chinese mainland and is intended to ensure that all staff use the Microsoft Authenticator password manager and Identity Pass app.

The move highlights the fragmented nature of Android app stores in the country and the growing differences between Chinese and foreign mobile ecosystems. Unlike Apple's iOS store, Google Play isn't available in China, so local smartphone makers like Huawei and Xiaomi operate their own platforms. Microsoft has chosen to block access from those devices to its corporate resources because they lack Google's mobile services in the country, the message said.

Programming

Eclipse Foundation Releases Open-Source Theia IDE - Compatible with VS Code Extensions (adtmag.com) 25

"After approximately seven years in development, the Eclipse Foundation's Theia IDE project is now generally available," writes ADT magazine, "emerging from beta to challenge Microsoft's similar Visual Studio Code (VS Code) editor." The Eclipse Theia IDE is part of the Eclipse Cloud DevTools ecosystem. The Eclipse Foundation calls it "a true open-source alternative to VS Code," which was built on open source but includes proprietary elements, such as default telemetry, which collects usage data...

Theia was built on the same Monaco editor that powers VS Code, and it supports the same Language Server Protocol (LSP) and Debug Adapter Protocol (DAP) that provide IntelliSense code completions, error checking and other features. The Theia IDE also supports the same extensions as VS Code (via the Open VSX Registry instead of Microsoft's Visual Studio Code Marketplace), which are typically written in TypeScript and JavaScript. There are many, many more extensions available for VS Code in Microsoft's marketplace, while "Extensions for VS Code Compatible Editors" in the Open VSX Registry number 3,784 at the time of this writing...

The Eclipse Foundation emphasized another difference between its Theia IDE and VS Code: the surrounding ecosystem/community. "At the core of Theia IDE is its vibrant open source community hosted by the Eclipse Foundation," the organization said in a news release. "This ensures freedom for commercial use without proprietary constraints and fosters innovation and reliability through contributions from companies such as Ericsson, EclipseSource, STMicroelectronics, TypeFox, and more. The community-driven model encourages participation and adaptation according to user needs and feedback."

Indeed, the list of contributors to and adopters of the platform is extensive, also featuring Broadcom, Arm, IBM, Red Hat, SAP, Samsung, Google, Gitpod, Huawei and many others.

The It's FOSS blog has some screenshots and a detailed rundown.

ADT magazine stresses that there's also an entirely distinct (but related) project called the Eclipse Theia Platform (not IDE) which differs from VS Code by allowing developers "to create desktop and cloud IDEs using a single, open-source technology stack" [that can be used in open-source initiatives]. The Eclipse Theia platform "allows developers to customize every aspect of the IDE without forking or patching the code... fully tailored for the needs of internal company projects or for commercial resale as a branded product."
China

Nvidia Forecasted To Make $12 Billion Selling GPUs In China (theregister.com) 4

Nvidia is expected to earn $12 billion from GPU sales to China in 2024, despite U.S. trade restrictions. Research firm SemiAnalysis says the GPU maker will ship over 1 million units of its new H20 model to the Chinese market, "with each one said to cost between $12,000 and $13,000 apiece," reports The Register. From the report: This figure is said by SemiAnalysis to be nearly double what Huawei is likely to sell of its rival accelerator, the Ascend 910B, as reported by The Financial Times. If accurate, this would seem to contradict earlier reports that Nvidia had moved to cut the price of its products for the China market. This was because buyers were said to be opting instead for domestically made kit for accelerating AI workloads. The H20 GPU is understood to be the top performing model out of three Nvidia GPUs specially designed for the Chinese market to comply with rules introduced by the Biden administration last year that curb performance.

In contrast, Huawei's Ascend 910B is claimed to have performance on a par with that of Nvidia's A100 GPU. It is believed to be an in-house design manufactured by Chinese chipmaker SMIC using a 7nm process technology, unlike the older Ascend 910 product. If this forecast proves accurate, it will be a relief for Nvidia, which earlier disclosed that its sales in China delivered a "mid-single digit percentage" of revenue for its Q4 of FY2024, and was forecast to do the same in Q1 of FY 2025. In contrast, the Chinese market had made up between 20 and 25 percent of the company's revenue in recent years, until the export restrictions landed.

China

Apple Slashes iPhone Prices In China Amid Fierce Huawei Competition (reuters.com) 82

Apple is offering discounts of up to $318 on select iPhone models in China, hoping to "defend its position in the high-end smartphone market, where it faces increasing competition from local rivals such as Huawei," reports Reuters. From the report: The increased competitive pressure on Apple comes after Huawei last month introduced its new series of high-end smartphones, the Pura 70, following the launch of the Mate 60 last August. Apple's previous discounting effort in February appears to have helped the company mitigate a sales slowdown in China. Apple's shipments in China increased by 12% in March, according to Reuters' calculations based on data from the China Academy of Information and Communications Technology (CAICT). This marks a significant improvement from the first two months of 2024, when the company experienced a 37% slump in sales.
China

US Revokes Intel, Qualcomm Licenses To Sell Chips To Huawei (msn.com) 241

An anonymous reader quotes a report from MSN: The US has revoked licenses allowing Huawei to buy semiconductors from Qualcomm and Intel, according to people familiar with the matter, further tightening export restrictions against the Chinese telecom equipment maker. Withdrawal of the licenses affects US sales of chips for use in Huawei phones and laptops, according to the people, who discussed the move on condition of anonymity. House Foreign Affairs Committee Chairman Michael McCaul confirmed the administration's decision in an interview Tuesday. He said the move is key to preventing China from developing advanced AI. "It's blocking any chips sold to Huawei," said McCaul, a Texas Republican who was briefed about the license decisions for Intel and Qualcomm. "Those are two companies we've always worried about being a little too close to China."

While the decision may not affect a significant volume of chips, it underscores the US government's determination to curtail China's access to a broad swathe of semiconductor technology. Officials are also considering sanctions against six Chinese firms that they suspect could supply chips to Huawei, which has been on a US trade restrictions list since 2019. [...] Qualcomm recently said that its business with Huawei is already limited and will soon shrink to nothing. It has been allowed to supply the Chinese company with chips that provide older 4G network connections. It's prohibited from selling ones that allow more advanced 5G access.

China

Huawei Secretly Backs US Research, Awarding Millions in Prizes (yahoo.com) 41

Huawei, the Chinese telecommunications giant blacklisted by the US, is secretly funding cutting-edge research at American universities including Harvard through an independent Washington-based foundation. From a report: Huawei is the sole funder of a research competition that has awarded millions of dollars since its inception in 2022 and attracted hundreds of proposals from scientists around the world, including those at top US universities that have banned their researchers from working with the company, according to documents and people familiar with the matter.

The competition is administered by the Optica Foundation, an arm of the nonprofit professional society Optica, whose members' research on light underpins technologies such as communications, biomedical diagnostics and lasers. The foundation "shall not be required to designate Huawei as the funding source or program sponsor" of the competition and "the existence and content of this Agreement and the relationship between the Parties shall also be considered Confidential Information," says a nonpublic document reviewed by Bloomberg. The findings reveal one strategy Shenzhen, China-based Huawei is using to remain at the forefront of funding international research despite a web of US restrictions imposed over the past several years in response to concerns that its technology could be used by Beijing as a spy tool.

Encryption

Almost Every Chinese Keyboard App Has a Security Flaw That Reveals What Users Type (technologyreview.com) 78

An anonymous reader quotes a report from MIT Technology Review: Almost all keyboard apps used by Chinese people around the world share a security loophole that makes it possible to spy on what users are typing. The vulnerability, which allows the keystroke data that these apps send to the cloud to be intercepted, has existed for years and could have been exploited by cybercriminals and state surveillance groups, according to researchers at the Citizen Lab, a technology and security research lab affiliated with the University of Toronto.

These apps help users type Chinese characters more efficiently and are ubiquitous on devices used by Chinese people. The four most popular apps -- built by major internet companies like Baidu, Tencent, and iFlytek -- basically account for all the typing methods that Chinese people use. Researchers also looked into the keyboard apps that come preinstalled on Android phones sold in China. What they discovered was shocking. Almost every third-party app and every Android phone with preinstalled keyboards failed to protect users by properly encrypting the content they typed. A smartphone made by Huawei was the only device where no such security vulnerability was found.

In August 2023, the same researchers found that Sogou, one of the most popular keyboard apps, did not use Transport Layer Security (TLS) when transmitting keystroke data to its cloud server for better typing predictions. Without TLS, a widely adopted international cryptographic protocol that protects users from a known encryption loophole, keystrokes can be collected and then decrypted by third parties. Even though Sogou fixed the issue after it was made public last year, some Sogou keyboards preinstalled on phones are not updated to the latest version, so they are still subject to eavesdropping. [...] After the researchers got in contact with companies that developed these keyboard apps, the majority of the loopholes were fixed. But a few companies have been unresponsive, and the vulnerability still exists in some apps and phones, including QQ Pinyin and Baidu, as well as in any keyboard app that hasn't been updated to the latest version.

Iphone

iPhone Sales Drop 19% in China (cnbc.com) 67

Apple's iPhone sales dropped sharply in China in the first quarter of this year as the company saw strong competition from domestic brand Huawei, according to a new report from market research firm Counterpoint Research. CNBC: Apple saw sales of its iPhones fall 19.1% in the first three months of the year, Counterpoint's data showed, as Chinese telecommunications and consumer electronics giant Huawei saw a resurgence in its smartphone business. The Shenzhen, China-based firm saw sales of its smartphones surge a whopping 69.7% in the first quarter, Counterpoint said.

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