
Journal pudge's Journal: Proof 32
Is there actually any good evidence that gay marriage was a deciding factor in Bush's re-election? People keep asserting it, but I can't find anything that shows it.
There's no doubt that morality was involved, but why say gay marriage was the big issue? To most people, abortion, what John Kerry did when he came home from Vietnam, the war in Iraq, etc. are all moral issues too.
And yes, evangelical Christians came out more to vote this time, but so did every other group of people, including 18-29s. Everyone voted more this time.
I am not saying it was not a part of the picture, but *the* deciding factor? What am I missing?
Eating their own (Score:3, Interesting)
The gays are up in arms about this, and I think if the Demos don't enact some serious spin control in among their ranks, they are going to start seeing some defections to the GOP, perhaps to groups like Log Cabin Republicans.
Check it out...
Blame gays? Don't buy it!
Statement from Matt Foreman, Executive Director
National Gay and Lesbian Task Force
Press Release Thursday, November 4, 2004
http://www.thetaskforce.org/media/release.cfm?rel
It's simple (Score:3, Insightful)
Rove understands this, which is why he made sure there were 11 (IIRC) anti-gay initiatives on the ballot in battleground states. Red meat for the right = more GOP turnout. Arizona did the same with its anti-immigrant Prop 200.
The way for the Dems to counter this is to have left-wing red meat initiatives on the ballot to boost Dem turnout - e.g. minimum wage increases, anti-outsourcing, tobacco taxes for the kids, etc. This is the future of state politics, so the Dems have to play.
BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
On that note, I agree with pudge that replacing marriage with civil unions for all would be great. But if you think red state voters would ever accept this, you're completely nuts.
Re:BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
Proof?
Re:BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
Re:BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
[W]hile polls show that many Americans are somewhat neutral about gay marriage (they neither support it, nor are they strongly against it), many Christian conservatives passionately oppose it. And Karl Rove, the president's chief political strategist, has said repeatedly that one of his major goals is to turn out those conservative voters in November in droves.
Re:BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
Re:BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
Whether he was behind the initiatives or not, he tried to use them to his advantage. If he didn't, then he should be fired. But what you are asking is, did it make *the* difference. I say no. It padded Bush's margin of victory, but it was not the difference.
Kerry should have won [1], but because he was a poor candidate he couldn't. He made ridiculous claims, spoke half truths, and attac
Re:BTW, don't blame Newsom (Score:2)
And in January, the courts were already involved. That is why the President got involved.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
The gay marriage initiatives won by huge margins, much larger than Bush won.
Four years ago Prop 22 in California got twice as many votes in San Francisco than Bush did.
Also, Kerry was against gay marriage.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
Meanwhile, gay men and lesbians in the US are more hated than ever, officially. How do you like that? Is that what Bush means by his God-loves-everyone rhetoric?
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
Proof?
Meanwhile, gay men and lesbians in the US are more hated than ever, officially
Banning gay marriage does not represent hatred of gays. As long as you don't understand this, you have no hope of speaking to the people who disagree with you.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
Really? Show me a gay man or woman who feels that way.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
You should really try talking to and understanding people instead of lashing out against them. Just because you believe "they" do that doesn't mean you have to.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
Steve Yuhas, Camile Paglia and John McKellar just to name a prominant three.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
I don't think this follows either, these initiatives have been floated for six years now. These are just the eleven most recent of 40+.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
The Dems attempted to find a middleground by saying they believe in civil unions, which would give them the economic rights that married couples have.
I personally don't believe that Kerry is against gay marriage, but because of Rove's craftiness, he had no choice but to say he believes otherwise.
Furthermore, going to the extent that Bush did in saying no civil unions, no anything would have lost him lots of liberal vote
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
You seem to have a lot of insider knowledge of Rove and Kerry tactics. Did you work for both those campaigns or are you just pretending to be smarter than you are?
Either way, you tell me the block of voters somehow just knew that Kerry was lying when he said he was against gay marriage, and I'll give you the reason they didn't vote for Kerry.
Re:It's simple (Score:2)
sulli, that's nonsense. There was only ONE on the ballot in a real battleground state, Ohio. Maybe you could include Oregon and Michigan, but Kerry won those anyway. The other eight were never in play for the Democrats.
And you are not giving me what I asked for: evidence that the anti-gay initiatives caused people to come out and vote, and vote Republican. You're just provid
Prop 200 (Score:2)
Re:Prop 200 (Score:2)
Keep in mind that sulli is a California Democrat, and his party refused to even attempt to enforce the law in California. Prop 187 in 1994 -- which I voted for, and would do again -- essentially stated that most public services could not be given to illegal aliens. This was seen as hateful and bigoted (despite being the cause of a huge bulk
Re:Prop 200 (Score:2)
It's not 100%. (Score:2)
Re:It's not 100%. (Score:2)
Meanwhile, more people voted for those bans than for Bush, so only the "Bush stole the election in 2000" crowd could claim all the ban's voters were Bush voters too :-)
Gay Marriage wasn't the issue (Score:2)
Or at least one should look at the data [powerlineblog.com] to understand its role better.
Data (Score:2)
Sort of (Score:2)
Re:Sort of (Score:2)
Re:Sort of (Score:2)
"moral issues" vs. "gay marriage issue" (Score:2)
I've heard people quoting polls to say "moral issues mattered most in how they voted". Those people put it above security and economic concerns. I first heard that figure quoted on WBZ radio last Wednesday morning, but you can also find references to it in articles like http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3973197.stm [bbc.co.uk]. This did surprise me a bit because it seemed to me that economic and security issues took up more of the politicians and political reporter's time.
That isn't quite the same as saying that g
Re:"moral issues" vs. "gay marriage issue" (Score:2)