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Journal pudge's Journal: CBS To Admit It? 42

Journal by pudge

The NY Times is reporting that CBS is preparing to admit that the documents were forgeries, and that officials inside CBS are "beginning to believe" the entire 60 Minutes report never should have aired with what they had.

As to the supposed source of the documents, the Washington Post is reporting that Rather interviewed Bill Burkett on camera about the whole thing. It was likely he was the source before, but according to the Times piece, he convinced producer Mary Mapes of the material, so now it is even more likely.

I imagine we will find out a lot more this week ... but whatever happens, I think Mapes and Rather should resign.

The only real question I have left is who supplied the documents to CBS; if it was Burkett, who put CBS in contact with him. Burkett said he gave some information to the Kerry campaign last month, and advocated using dirty tricks, and was apparently the source of these forgeries, so wondering if the Kerry campaign or DNC supplied some of this information to CBS is not mere speculation: it's a question that demands answering.

This discussion was created by pudge (3605) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

CBS To Admit It? More

CBS To Admit It?

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  • Didn't 60 minutes also break the "exploding gas tank" story a few years ago, staging the evidence by placing explosives on said gas tank before "testing"? Or am I thinking of other "respected media"?
    • That'd be NBC - Dateline [whatreallyhappened.com], to be exact. I stopped watching Dateline after hearing about that. I haven't watched much of 60 minutes in the past few years.
    • Rather and Mapes were the team at CBS who blew the lid off the Abu Ghraib scandal.

      Would you agree that the Abu Ghraib story was at least as important as the forgeries?

      Some people are suggesting that they were set up, and that the reason they were set up, rather than some other organization, is payback for the embarrassment the Abu Ghraib story caused the Bush administration.

      Mind you, they wouldn't have gotten caught by the forgery if they hadn't gotten greedy. If someone really was trying to set them

      • 1. Rather and Maples were reporting known news on Abu Ghraib. The story was broken by Seymour Hersch, the same guy who broke My Lai in Vietnam. He "broke" it by getting a copy of the Army's already in progress 15-6 investigation. (Same way he broke My Lai, btw. Nothing against him. He's an old-school police beat reporter made good.)

        2. Would you agree that the Abu Ghraib story was at least as important as the forgeries?
        A. Irrelevant. The issue here is 60 minute's failure to do even basic intern-level fac

        • Bush - Flight physical. Depends. Could he make the FINAL call that he wasn't going to fly anymore, and therefore didn't need to take the physical? No, not officially. However, if he was not going to continue past his origional commitment, and had been given permission (or everybody reasonably expected that outcome - i.e. waiting for the paperwork) to drill with a unit in another state, doing duties that didn't involve flying, nobody would get excited over it. Really. Honest. Promise. I have drilled at a n

          • Talk to the "Bush apologists". I told you I wasn't interested in re-re-re-re-re-hashing it.

            Sorry.

          • I don't know where you read what your read (nor do I care, because I'm not going to argue Bush's service record with you. It's been done. To exhaustion. And 4 years ago, too. The exact same tired, worn, threadbare claims), but I will correct a few misconceptions.

            Gratuitous days. I have not heard this term used before. However, 15 (retirement/service) points are awarded to each and every member of the active reserves (a surprisingly broad term, btw...) who serves any part of the year. These are "base", not

            • Sorry everybody, I wrote gratuitous days, when I should have written gratuitous points.

              Red Warrior is, of course, perfectly free to opt out of discussing this. But, I am going to respond, in case anyone else is interested.

              Red Warrior writes:

              However, 15 (retirement/service) points are awarded to each and every member of the active reserves who serves any part of the year...
              I, for instance ... did exactly nothing each of those years. I earned exactly 15 points each of those years.
              If Bush was in the

              • Ah. I see where your sillynesses come from. Idiotic (we'll leave aside the obvious partisanship, since I'm not gonna do the "Bush Bad, no Bush Good game) articles. They are wrong. Believe what makes you happy. Rage against the machine and all that.

                Some obvious inaccuracies -

                1. the 15 points are not, and were not prorated. If you wish to make anyone believe otherwise, point to a period source. Yeah, you'll have to go and do some ACTUAL research. And, yes, you'll be disappointed, because you (and your silly

                • Red Warrior, Pudge, the owner of this journal, asked us to refrain [slashdot.org] from discussing Bush's service record in his journal.

                  ...this journal entry is about CBS News, not about Bush's service. I don't care about Bush's service or Kerry's service. As far as I am concerned, they both served honorably. If you disagree, feel free to do so, but it is off-topic here...

                  I am going to honor this request.

                  But will you do me a favor? If you respond to a comment of mine, in the future, I'd appreciated it you coul

                  • I can't "get the last word on Bush's service record" for the simple reason that I refused to DISCUSS Bush's service record. I made the exact same point that Pudge did, btw, specifically stating (on multiple occassions, including in response to the same post of yours [and the same verbage therein, btw] that Pudge replied to.) that I WASN'T going to discuss Bush's service record. Still haven't, btw.

                    What I *did* attempt to do, however, was to clear up some glaring misconceptions that you had (and seem to INSIS

                    • What I *did* attempt to do, however, was to clear up some glaring misconceptions that you had.

                      I appreciate those kinds of efforts, in general. But not when someone characterizes me as foolish or dishonest to hold the opinions I hold, or pose the questions I pose.

                      Oh, and no, it did not escape my notice that you didn't comment on the content of what I said. That's OK, I understand. ;->

                      Wait. Pudge says the discussion isn't welcome here. And you said you were uninterested in discussing it.

                    • when someone characterizes me as foolish or dishonest to hold the opinions I hold, or pose the questions I pose

                      Ignorance is only an excuse until you have the information....

                      Pudge says the discussion isn't welcome here. And you said you were uninterested in discussing it. Are you now criticizing me for not responding to your recent points? If so I believe you are being inconsistent

                      Ok, I hadn't called you dishonest before. Now you ARE being dishonest. Pudge said discussing Bush's guard record wasn't welco

                    • Re:Nope (Score:2)

                      by pudge ( 3605 ) *
                      I started a JE of my own to continue this thread

                      Thanks. :-)
          • I'm just curious. You seem to have many strong feelings about people going AWOL from their reserve duties. Just what do you feel about Kerry going AWOL [he.net] then?

            Also, did Kerry go to ROTC or OCT? Because he was given a commission right into Nam also.

            Parting shot,

            The DNC will regroup and present a unified message of an American agenda that will make the citezenry stand up take them seriously again. Just don't expect it this election cycle.

            • Was Kerry AWOL? (Score:1, Offtopic)

              by geoswan ( 316494 )

              Also, did Kerry go to ROTC or OCT? Because he was given a commission right into Nam also.

              I would be interested in seeing both Bush and Kerry releasing all their records. But the records Kerry has released say he spent about six months in Officer Candidate school, before he served aboard USS Gridley.

              One of my correspondents here pointed me at a site they considered very authoritative. This site, they explained, would help me decode the apparently complementary fitness reports in Kerry's records.

              • But the records Kerry has released say he spent about six months in Officer Candidate school

                That is good to know. If you could send me a link to these documents it'd be most appreciated. Also, do what you can to get Kerry to release his military records, I'm not sure why the AP isn't even on that story.

                What I try to remember to say is that Bush treated his military service obligation frivolously.

                There is good reason to think so, no doubt. But it seems that the ANG treated his position frivolously also
                • I would like to see both Bush and Kerry put their entire records up for public perusal, like John McCain did. But neither one as done so.

                  Here is the page on Kerry's site devoted to his service records. [johnkerry.com] If I read this pdf document [johnkerry.com] right, it says he attended officer candidate school from August 19th, 1966 to December 15th 1966. Just under four months, not the about six months I thought I remembered.

                  Interestingly enough, on the third page, it lists Kerry as having received a "silver star with combat '

                  • Well, never thought to look at the ol' DD 214 but sure enough it is there.

                    By the way, The "V" shouldn't be there whether by typographical mistake by a clerk or otherwise. This is already settled matter [wordiq.com] by looking up Navy regulations. Some have gone so far as to claim this document was a forgery, but I will not. I will do with a clarifying statement from Kerry saying that he recognizes that there is no 'V' with his silver star and a correction on his website. Not having watched Kerry very closely, it might
          • Bush apologists have told me ...

            This is the same specious reasoning Rather has used for a week and a half. "Some critics have claimed that this font didn't exist in 1972." Just because some people claim it doesn't mean it is relevant, or that we should care. :-)

            Regardless, this journal entry is about CBS News, not about Bush's service. I don't care about Bush's service or Kerry's service. As far as I am concerned, they both served honorably. If you disagree, feel free to do so, but it is off-topic h

      • Some people are suggesting that they were set up, and that the reason they were set up, rather than some other organization, is payback for the embarrassment the Abu Ghraib story caused the Bush administration.

        I hate comments like this. Here, let me try:

        Some people are suggesting that Kerry likes to molest small children.

        Wow, that was easy.

        • Wow. What a scoop. I'll use you as my anonymous source for my next Prime Time "It's not News, It's Fark" Special about how newly discovered private memos from Kerry's former CO shows that Kerry molested several children while in Vietnam as part of the war crimes he committed.

          jason


          • Wow. What a scoop. I'll use you as my anonymous source for my next Prime Time "It's not News, It's Fark" Special about how newly discovered private memos from Kerry's former CO shows that Kerry molested several children while in Vietnam as part of the war crimes he committed.

            Yeah, I can forward you the original email from 1972 that had the memo attached as a PDF.

            • Sweet. I should get some good ratings from that. And a lot of advert money for my prime time placements and the banner add traffic through my site when I post a Xerox of the email's attached PDF...

              jason
      • I taped that 60 minutes segment. The documents are just part of the story.

        That's understating the case. The documents were the main part of the story. They were the lead of the story, most of the time of the story was spent on them, and Rather himself said they held the story off for years while waiting for the memos. And now -- apparently, we don't know, as they are anonymous -- the NY Times is reporting the entire report should not have been run based on what was available apart from the memos.
        • I taped that segment. And I just watched the tape, with the counter on, and my finger on the pause button, and made notes about who was on screen, how long they talked, and what they talked about:

          0:00 Dan Rather talks about the War in Vietnam.

          1:15 Barnes speaks about pulling strings to get George W. Bush into the ANG.

          2:00 Rather gives some background on Barnes.

          2:25 Rather on Sid Adger, friend of the Bush family.

          2:40 Barnes speaks about Adger asking for the favor to the Bush family.

          2:48 Rather on Rose

          • So, the new documents CBS claimed to have found didn't lead the segment. Nor did the memos take up most of it.

            I did not see the segment. I read the story on CBSNews.com the next day. The documents were the lead, and Barnes was not mentioned until midway through.
          • So... about 1/4 of the 60 min report was on the memos directly... this make sense...

            People make claims... back up the claims (the memos) then draw further conclusions about those claims...

            The problem is that this report never would have aired without the memos as it's nothing but he-said she-said. And there are problems with each one of those people interviewed. It was obviously one sided and CBS went out of their way to ignore people who suggested the opposite were true.

            Without the memos, it's the e
  • To discredit the completely legitimate concerns about Bush's National Guard record.
    • Yeah... Because the 'republicans' had the inside scoop that CBS was going to blow off any reasonable fact checking -- and even blow off their own document experts. Let me remind you that there have been now numerous reports that EVERY ONE of their document experts would not validate ANYTHING on those documents as 'authentic' -- except one. And HE would only validate the signature, NOT the document itself.

      It is silly to believe these were 'plants' by ANYONE. It's more reasonable to believe that these we
    • +1, Tin Foil Hat

    • Get over it.

      CBS has said they are forgeries. It looks as if Beckett is going to admit that he created them. The guy HATES Bush and was trying to discredit him through his own lies and deceit.

      Of course, we're never going to hear apologies from all the left-wing nut jobs out there who insinuated this was all the E-V-I-L Karl Rove.

      • Good. If he created them, he needs to admit it. So will Karl's Swift Boat vets admit they were lying as well? Not that it matters at this point.

        In other news, Kerry gave a major speech on Iraq today. Republicans might want to read about it. [washingtonpost.com] "Colossal failures of judgment," etc. Kerry would have prioritized the war on Al Qaeda ahead of any action against Saddam. I agree. We should still make the war on Al Qaeda the priority. Sadly, Bush has increased anti-US terror with the war in Iraq. He made the


        • Funny, I thought that this discussion was about a major news agency falling for some lame fake memos in their rush to accuse (for the umpteenth time) the President of not fulfilling his duties in the National Guard 30 years ago.

          Keeping Kerry supporters on track in any discussion this election year seems to be an exercise in futility.

  • Would the president have the option to sue for defamation of character, or pursue any similar laws to the same effect? IMHO it seems that people at CBS wanted to believe this document/evidence so much that they turned a blind eye to apparent evidence that might have suggested forgery. Obviously that would be showing CBS's political bias at a level on par with Fox (fair and balanced), yet I doubt even Fox would report on this, but what do I know? Not much.

    As far as resigning, as much as I agree that the pri
    • Would the president have the option to sue for defamation of character, or pursue any similar laws to the same effect?

      Unlikely. Defamation in torts takes two forms, slander and libel. The problem is that there are a whole bunch of factors that go into such a suit, and one of them is the notion of "public figure." You can basically say anything you want to about someone who is a public figure. But most public figures are limited: for example, I can say without fear that some local utility director has

  • Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Monday September 20, 2004 @01:53PM (#10299309)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • In an OpinionJournal piece, Dukakis II [opinionjournal.com] (which is a really interesting article, btw), Pat Caddell, 'the pollster for Jimmy Carter's 1976 and 1980 campaigns', is quoted as saying that the Democrats have become far too enmeshed with the Rather story and that if those documents turned out to be forgeries (the piece is dated Monday 20 Sept.) then 'it would be the end of the race'.

    He [Caddell] explained to Fox News that Democrats "have gotten themselves so involved in this issue that if they're not authentic, the

    • What we know:
      • Burkett gave the memos to CBS.
      • Last month, Burkett said he gave some information to the Kerry campaign.
      • Burkett did not approach CBS about the memos, they approached him.
      • The DNC had video attacking Bush's service ready to go right after the 60 Minutes broadcast aired.

      What information did the give the Kerry campaign? How did CBS know Burkett had these memos? Did the Kerry campaign or the DNC have any contact with CBS about these memos, if so what information was passed, and in which direction

  • "YOU'RE FIRED, GRRRRR."

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132966,00.html [foxnews.com]

    Even comes with a recording of his phone call!!!!

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