
Journal pudge's Journal: Torture 48
A lot of people having complained that Don Rumsfeld last week said, "My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture.
The question asked of him is whether torture took place. He attempted to give a reasonable answer to the question. But many people say, how can it be anything but torture? Look at the pictures! Read the report!
Human Rights Watch quotes the Convention Against Torture, saying it defines torture as "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession...." (emphasis mine)
That is to say, abuse must be inflicted for a specific purpose -- for example, extracting information -- in order to be called torture. It does not matter how bad the abuse is, or what the abuse is, it must have a specific purpose in order to be torture. That is not to say that torture did not take place, but it is wholly right to question whether abuse amounts to torture, which is something that the photographic evidence does not -- probably cannot -- show. In my reading of the report, it doesn't show it either. It suspects it, which is why further investigations are called for in said report.
That is to say, Rummy was absoultely right to question whether torture has, in fact, taken place. He was wrong to say it in a press conference where people wouldn't understand the relevant legal nuances, and where he might betray his own lack of understanding of the evidence.
From all the little bits of information that have been coming out, from the pervasive allegations that they were told to "soften up" the prisoners, it seems that this likely was abuse for a purpose that makes it amount to torture. But I have not seen enough evidence to convince me of that yet. I would be surprised if I didn't see that evidence eventually.
My only question is whether Rummy had enough evidence to call it torture at the time he said it, and if he has that evidence now.
Regardless (Score:2)
Now there is discussion about releasing the pictures. I think that'd just make the whole situation worse. Then the al-quaeda types would have pictures to view before sending their children to a US Base with bombs strapped to them.
They should release the pictures only if they send the soldiers pictured in them to ar
Re:Regardless (Score:2)
Yeah, he sometimes forgets how to say things to the press. He should not have addressed the question, or referred them to the lawyers. But what pisses me off is that when someone makes reasonable distinctions, they get their ass kicked from here to next Sunday, and then we complain that politicians won't give us straight or complex answers! Of course they do, because they know what WE will do to them if they DON'T.
A good politician would have answered, "I don't know if they
Rumsfeld (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd wager he was simply tired and couldn't recall specifics, so he went with the safe qualifying statement from a legal POV.
As to the whole mess, the one thing I'm hoping for is public trials. From a pragmatic standpoint, this will have a short term cost, but it'll help defuse charges(if they're unfounded) of more widespread problems along the chain of command.
As I said to Red Warrior, I have no doubt
Re:Rumsfeld (Score:1)
Re:Rumsfeld (Score:2)
Re:Rumsfeld (Score:1)
Re:Rumsfeld (Score:2)
Re:Rumsfeld (Score:2)
What I wonder is, how are we going to maintain troop strength/morale? Reservists want to go home, re-enlistments are expected to be down (by all sides... they just differ on the reasons), active-duty are going into tighter rotations (in some cases 12 months on, 6 months off). I think this is goin
Re:Rumsfeld (Score:2)
Just like every other war ever.
Oh, come on (Score:2)
2) On the contrary, it's *worse*. A little controlled pushing of the bounds of normally appropriate questioning, in order to extract some vital piece of inform
Re:Oh, come on (Score:2)
Perhaps. And perhaps Rumsfeld called it torture. But in those cases he had no legal obligations to call a spade a spade. Here, he does: if he calls it torture and later we find it doesn't meet the legal definition, that could have legal repercussions on the subsequent trials, especially for the civilian contractors, who presumably will f
Re:Oh, come on (Score:2)
It isn't supposed to be a defense - AIUI Rumsfeld was just correcting the misuse of the word "torture". I think he has a good reason to, too: if the prisoners we
Re:Oh, come on (Score:2)
Yeah, he tends to piss off a lot of people that way. He refuses to let them set the terms of discussion, especially if it has repercusions. He actually understands that "words mean things". Say what you want about the man's politics, as SecDef, he rocks.
True (Score:2)
I Think Everything Should Be Released (Score:1)
Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Wanna know the real effing problem? We're not offing these mother-effers wholesal
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
There's a small problem of TIMELINE here. The Iraqi prisoner abuse investigation started in January (which means the abuses took place before that -- sometime in October, IIRC). The event you describe above took place in March (?).
I don't mean to be provative, but you are an angry pers
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
This is not a monolithic people. Today, Iraqis marched in protest in front of al-Sadr's militia, demanding they leave Najaf. It seems clear some of the people in this prison were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. If these were al Qaeda, I can see someone saying, "screw them," though I'd still protest the actions of our troops. But in this case, some
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
So you disagree with the American tradition of presumption of innocence? These people didn't have trials, many of them. I don't know if any of them DID have trials.
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
You were saying these were poor Iraqi schlubs. Don't dick around with words-we're not Liberals.
Now then -- NEWFLASH -- We're At War. The regular rules do NOT apply.
Did you see him shooting at us? Yes Sir! Send him to prison, he gets out when the war is over. Perfectly legal, perfectly normal. These people weren't stealing apples from a cart they were actively trying to kill us.
Does this mean we should abuse them? No. Does this exc
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
And no, the regular rules do not apply, which is why we don't need to have trials. But neither does that mean we can treat them in prison as though they are convicted criminals
But let's not wax poetic about
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Here, here, Pudge.
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Second, 90%... yeah right.
Third how many Iraqis are burnt to a crisp swinging from a bridge?
Fourth the 7 (or so) scumbags are going to go to jail... what more do you want?
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
It is more reasonable than your presumption that ALL of them are guilty.
Third how many Iraqis are burnt to a crisp swinging from a bridge?
Non sequitur.
Fourth the 7 (or so) scumbags are going to go to jail... what more do you want?
I want the officers who told them to do it to go to jail, if anyone did. I want the officers who allowed it to happen through gross negligience to be dishonorably discharged.
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Oh I see what a few Iraqis do doesn't count
I'm all for the officers in charge getting discharged.
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
In regard to how we treat our prisoners, yes, that's correct. It doesn't count.
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Look you may think the US Mil is highly organized finely oiled machine but it's not. It's a bunch of men and women who are as flawed as any of us. Their frat pranks aside the 7 idiots & the losers who supervised them do not represent the whole of the US Mil however.
If you'd ever like to become a racist become a police officer. I know many very normal folks who got involved in law enforcement (cops, lawyers, judges) and
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
No, I merely think that those responsible for extreme violations of the Geneva Conventions and the UCMJ should be penalized harshly.
Their frat pranks aside the 7 idiots & the losers who supervised them do not represent the whole of the US Mil however.
I never implied it did, in any way.
I'm just saying stop pretending we're above this sort of thing.
Since when does calling for appropriate punishment constitute any
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
You sure you're not a Lib becuase you sure argue like one. It's degenerated into You're Stupid and I'm Smart.
Sorry I'm not willing to go that route. We both basically agree the US Mil is doing something about this. Yo
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
I've never claimed differently.
Whatever we did to these Iraqis they're not dead, or swinging from bridges.
The former is true, the latter is contested. The Pentagon is investigating several deaths as homicides. And again, I don't care, in this context. Whatever they've done is no justification for what our troops have done. And it's not like I am angry only at our tro
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
You might hold your horses on this one. Rumsfeld said that a lot worse is going to come out. There have reportedly been investigations into beating deaths, at least one dog attack and there is possibly a tape of an IRAQI woman being raped.
Some of the stuff is probably not
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Those are magic keywords which mean "blah blah blah blah blah."
Please, let's keep to what we know, not what someone else thinks maybe someone else knows. It is far more interesting.
That said, we do know for fact -- it is not merely "reportedly" -- that there are active investigations into prisoner deaths.
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
And then the report goes on to site numerous examples of other Soldiers and
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Does it? Have you read the report you cited? I'll direct you to read pages 16 and 17 in particular when it enumerates the alleged abuses. Read them. They ALL appear to be humilation related with two notable execptions:
"Punching, slapping, and kicking detaniees; jumping on their naket feet".
While clearly abuse, HARDLY warrants the reactions we've seen.
"A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;"
Wh
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
As you wish -- but I would suggest we aren't that far from common ground.
I am quite familiar with Amnesty International and many of their reports -- most of which are on countries OTHER than America. If you follow this thread up, you'll note I *DO* suggest a call for PERSPECTIVE and cite Amnesty International's reports
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
I do want to pipe up here and note that nothing I've heard from the warnings by Amnesty Internation
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
hehe
Anyway, you can tell I am not making excuses for anyone or trying to make this look not as bad as it is. I am trying to make it look like exactly what it is, and I am just not sure, yet, what it is.
I will say that sex with a prisoner probably consitutes violations all over the place.
If I had to guess I'd say it was rape, but thankfully, I don't have to guess. I am sure whatever this is, it is being investigated,
Re:Hi, my name is ellem and I am an Ugly American (Score:2)
If that information proves to be accurate, we can deal with that THEN.
It is torture... (Score:2)
The full definition is th
Re:It is torture... (Score:2)
I never implied that it was not torture, and I never implied this was the only purpose which could be called torture. I was merely pointing out that torture looks at more specific motivations than the more general abuse.
Torture is also abuse to punish for an act the person is suspected of committing or being involved in. It is also abuse based on discrimination of any kind.
So you
One last thing (Score:2)
I will wait and see what happens. Sad stuff all of it.
We often don't agree, but I do appreciate conversation.