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Journal pudge's Journal: McCain the Moderate 27

Journal by pudge
I'm watching Colbert Report tonight, and Christine Todd Whitman is bitterly complaining about how she feels moderates are shut out of the GOP. Then Colbert talks about other moderates, like Giuliani and ... McCain.

I've talked about this before, but I want to quantify it a bit. Can someone tell me any way in which McCain is more moderate than, say, President Bush? And I don't mean moderate in tone, but in actual views.

In my scale, McCain is quite a bit more conservative than Bush, on balance. I seriously want to know if I am missing something, or if most other people are, when they think McCain is moderate. Let's come up with a list.

Many people often bring up the McCain-Feingold bill, which frankly I don't see as fitting in to the political spectrum at all. But if you do, fine, that's one. But on the other hand, McCain is far more conservative than Bush on spending, especially in regards to social programs and pork.

McCain also was a more moderate voice in regard to the war on Iraq, which puts him as more conservative than Bush (remember, the invasion was a very liberal policy).

McCain is also more conservative on interpretation of Constitutional powers, but I won't count that, because it may be the result of perspective: Bush is President after all, and perhaps as President, McCain may be similarly biased.

I've never seen a quantfiable difference between the two men on abortion, despite many right-wing claims to the contrary. Nor on taxes or gay rights.

So here's a list. Under each is a list of ways in which they are more conservative than the other. I'll update it as ideas come in.

  • McCain
    • Social programs
    • Pork
    • War
    • Immigration
  • Bush
    • Campaign finance
    • Embryonic stem cell research
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McCain the Moderate More

McCain the Moderate

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  • Heritage
    Bush II is the amalgamation of the three dominant conservative bases; Evangelical Christianity, Reganism, and Old money east coast republican.

    McCain's republican base is amongst the Goldwater school, which other than Reagan (with the help and blessing of the east coasters via Bush I) has yet to win a national election.

    There are a core group of moderate democrats that see McCain as a oposition figure, just as some of the hippy left saw Goldwater as the only credible threat to the east coaste
    • I'm not forgetting the various dynamics. I am just curious to add them up and find out if we can quantify whether McCain is moderate.

      McCain isn't running in '08, he's too old

      It is right now more likely than not that he is running. He's planning on it.

      The real monkeywrech is going to come if a third party in the mold of Perot '92 rears its head, this is their best shot in years (Much like 80 and 92 were), then you might as well flip a coin, its going to be a 40/40/20 election

      I don't think so, not if the Re
      • If McCain runs you're right. Romney witout a McCain as VP is a weak candidate in selling power.

        The Republicans need to run a "team" in '08 because without Condi there's no real "star".

        Sadly I think you would find that Americans are certainly not read for a woman President and certainly not a Black Woman President. Go spend some time in Louisiana where David Duke did surprisingly well - far higher than the polls showed him (because who's goingto admit they're voting for a member of the KKK).
        • If McCain runs you're right. Romney witout a McCain as VP is a weak candidate in selling power.

          The Republicans need to run a "team" in '08 because without Condi there's no real "star".

          Well, unless it's McCain.

          My wife wants a Romney-Graham (Lindsay) ticket. That could be a really great one for the GOP. No existing star, but a hell of a lot of sanity and charisma.

          Sadly I think you would find that Americans are certainly not read for a woman President and certainly not a Black Woman President.

          I disagree.

          Go s

        • I think America could accept a woman president. There have been quite a number of female chief executives in recent decades, so it's not like we're breaking new ground, and most Republicans were quite fond of Maggie. Where Republicans are hurting is among women voters. If only men voted, Bill Clinton would never have been elected.

          Dr. Rice is in many ways formidable, but lacks folksy charm (kind of like Al Gore in that respect) and is probably repelled by all the necessary fund raising and flesh pressing.

      • I agree. Mc Cain will run. He'll be about 72 years old, but 70 is the new 60. He looks pretty healthy to me.

        One thing I can guarantee - nearly all the candidates will find a way to distance themselves from Bush but without directly attacking him. McCain has already done this with the torture controversy.

        • That's the great thing about McCain: regardless of his motivations, his actions always seem genuine. Maybe he came out against Bush in part to distance himself, but it seems likely he actually believes what he is saying. Maybe that is part of why McCain is seen as a moderate, because he is willing to go against the party line, but that is actually, also, a very conservative value.
      • I don't think so, not if the Republicans field a strong "mainstream" candidate like McCain or maybe Romney

        Or Leiberman *rimshot* ;)
        • If the Kos'ers don't quit sniping at Joe he's liable to Jeffords their asses to get a chance at getting good (in his mind) social program reforms pased. In reality, Lieberman is to the right of Olympia Snow and I for one would be proud to let him say his piece in trying to determine the direction of modern conservatism.

    • Thanks for helping me form words around what I knew in my gut.

      Conservatism in the United States is not monolithic, and Bush II appeals to the evangelical branch. McCain does not. One of the most deeply held beliefs of the left is that anyone who professes to think about God at any time except an hour or two on Sunday is an extremist. Therefore, Bush is painted as an extremist.

      • Conservatism in the United States is not monolithic, and Bush II appeals to the evangelical branch. McCain does not.

        Right, but again, I am talking about their actual views, not unquantified perceptions. Is there any view McCain has that makes him less appealing to evangelicals? I say no, there is not. Bush just "comes off" holier.

        One of the most deeply held beliefs of the left is that anyone who professes to think about God at any time except an hour or two on Sunday is an extremist. Therefore, Bush is p
  • If liberals were generally against war in Iraq, doesn't that make Bush more conservative, as far as this war goes?
    • If liberals were generally against war in Iraq, doesn't that make Bush more conservative, as far as this war goes?

      Regardless of what "the liberals" were for or against (and no, the liberals in DC were not generally against the war on Iraq, they were generally for it, with a very few of their number coming out against it at the time ... remember, Kerry said he approved of the invasion at the time it happened), the fact is that this war is a liberal policy, not a conservative one.

      Most "paleo-conservatives" ar
  • If Bush were conservative it might make sense to compare his degree of conservativeness to that of McCain. But since Bush is anything but conservative, it's a non-sensical question. The fundamental premise underlying your question is flawed. Please rephrase your question in a way that accounts for the fact that Bush is a flaming liberal.
  • does combat experience count? there aren't too many pacifists in the republican camp, so war must be a republican value.
    • does combat experience count?

      No, because Kerry is a flaming liberal.

      there aren't too many pacifists in the republican camp, so war must be a republican value.

      I am not talking about parties, I am talking about conservatism, and everyone who has been around the block knows that entering wars of choice is not a conservative value.
    • Yep! This is what I am saying: "McCain has always been far more conservative than either his supporters or detractors acknowledge. In 2004 he earned a perfect 100 percent rating from Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum and a 0 percent from NARAL. Citizens Against Government Waste dubs him a 'taxpayer hero.' He has opposed extension of the assault-weapons ban, federal hate crimes legislation and the International Criminal Court. He has supported school vouchers, a missile defense shield and private accounts for
  • That's all (at least that's my opinion).
    • I agree that is part of it. I think another part of it though is simply that McCain does do some high profile things that put him against most of the rest of his party, which people see as inherently moderate, even if he is to their right. But even if he is to their left on the issue, they come to identify him as "being" in that spot on the spectrum, since they know little about all his views.
      • Ya, I think part of it has to be that even though he is a Republican, he sides with Dems a lot. Like the recent issue of torture (not that I think torture is good). I don't know that I'd trust him. I personally don't know how he can allow Colorado City to exist.
        • Yeah, but even there, I'd say McCain's view on torture is the more conservative one. It asserts respect for the rule of law, more than the views on either side. Note that McCain does not agree with the Dems who say we should not torture: he says torture should be illegal. Which means that if you feel you have to do it, go ahead, and then later accept the consequences.

          It's a very old, very conservative, notion of respect for rule of law, of holding everyone up to accountability for the same law, and so on
        • What on earth does he have to do with Colorado City? He's a senator, not the governor, or even the local sheriff.

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