Nope, complex financial regulations don't hurt the little guy at all, it's not like a company with 10 people would be required to hire specialized accountants (who can actually understand the 1000s of pages of regulations that often exist) to make sure they comply with all the new regulations (on top of any full or part time accountants they already had), plus the money spent on consulting with lawyers to make sure you're in the clear. Then there's often overheads of dealing with large bureaucracies, sometimes lots of money spent in filing fees, etc. But no, doing these things doesn't hurt the little guy at all, because in comparison the company with a 1000 employees is probably paying 5-10 times as much money to comply as the little guy. . .Oh wait, they have the funds to afford it, and as a percentage it's much lower. Any law that increases regulations, and requires jumping through more hoops and dealing with lots of legal things will ALWAYS impact the small guy more than the big guy. It's why the big guys don't tend to mind the regulation.

Phil

Free/unregulated markets tend to be opaque, uncompetitive, and anti-consumer; whereas with appropriate (perhaps minimal but targeted) regulation, we can have well-functioning, transparent, competitive, consumer-oriented markets.

I can't help but hit here... Relatively free markets are not uncompetitive anti-consumer etc. If we look at the industries that tend to be the most uncompetitive, anti-consumer, etc, they ALL are the MOST heavily regulated industries. Let's see health care, education, cable, internet, wireless phone, etc. One of the few free market companies I can think of that are extremely uncompetitive is Ticketmaster, and that's a case where some minimal regulation and competition would help tremendously. Most other industries aren't nearly as anti-consumer as the ones I've named, and the majority have prices that have decreased over timer (with the exception of many labor-intensive jobs that can't be made much more efficient through technology (think things like day care, construction to an extent, plumbing, electricians, etc). However, those services are expected to increase faster than inflation in a growing economy (if they're not, then it means the workers aren't getting paid more over time, and they'd move to other fields, and the demand would increase etc).

Of course, I wouldn't argue for a completely 100% unregulated economy, but by the definition of "free market" I see many people assuming, they think that basic laws (such as not allowing someone to kill another person, damage others properties etc) aren't compatible with a free market. I'd argue that a free market just means that the government does the least it can to intrude and prevent competition between companies. Looking at highly regulated markets, I don't think it's surprising that they're the same markets most likely to be anti-consumer, anti-competitive, etc.

Phil

I think many many many people on slashdot have this absurd notion that big corporations are always pro-free market and therefore conservative. This is 100% pure crap. Big corporations tend to be in bed with big government (both republicans and democrats) because big government pushes new rules and regulations on their business... rules and regulations that these same big corporations are WRITING. They do this because, although it imposes a cost on themselves, it imposes a far bigger cost on anyone who might want to compete with them in the future, thus stifling competition, and allowing the big corporation to do whatever they want (what choice does the public have when there is no competition, or the competition consists of 3 huge companies preventing anyone else from entering the market). I love when people talk about oil companies wanting to drill so much so they can increase profits. The truth is, their profits would be MAXIMIZED if all new drilling in the US was stopped. This is because they don't need to spend billions on extracting new oil, and their existing oil can be sold at far greater prices because of the laws of supply and demand (welcome back $4-$5/gallon gasoline).

The companies that are pro free market tend to be smaller companies that are unable to compete due to the laws and regulations laid out by the big guys. There are also exceptions for other large companies that rely on buying cheap goods in bulk from others etc, but those aren't the majority of companies. If you want to know which way the companies lean, just look at what candidates they support. When the democrats look like they'll be in power slightly more money goes to them and vice versa. They don't want to be screwed over when the leaders in washington change.

Phil

one problem there, and with the parents reasoning... Most text books are NOT paid for by the publishers. The authors (normally professors at a university) write the book while being paid by the university. The university wants their name on the book (just like they want their professors names on research papers) as it helps the university's rankings (you know those rankings everyone bases college choices on even though they say absolutely NOTHING about the quality of the teaching at the schools). I'm sure the author of the calculus book is doing pretty well because of book sales, but I'd be surprised if he gets more than $10-$15 for each book that sells. The publishers however are raking in the money, and the college students are paying for it twice, once when they're paying professors to write the book, and again when the publisher sells the book. Then the publisher does their best to screw over the students even more, by forcing professor(s)s to sign a contract saying they'll make new revisions of the book every 2 or 3 years. Sure in some fields this makes sense, but I don't think there's anything new being taught in calculus today that wasn't in a book from 10-15 years ago (likely more, although some changes are made to keep the book "relevant" with engineering disciplines, etc). The sole purpose of that is to kill the used book market. Professors can no longer teach a class using the old book because new copies aren't available, and students can't sell/use an old copy, as the problem sets are different (normally that is the main thing publishers want changed in a book).

Of course, on that note, I remember paying ~110 for this same book new 10 years ago, I guess inflation has been terrorizing the book market.

Phil

Or... I dunno, they get convicted again sometime AFTER the device is no longer needed on their car? I imagine their data is something like over a 5 year period, with the device only necessary for the first year after the conviction. I doubt many of the people (if any) get caught again in the next year driving their own car... the only thing i could see happening is someone gets arrested driving another car. I imagine tampering with the devices in an attempt to defeat them is considered a major parole violation, and could result in quite a bit of jailtime. I seriously doubt many people are doing that.

Phil

I think defining correctness as "producing the desired results is pretty reasonable. Sure correct doesn't mean robust, but they are different things and this discussion has been about correctness.

Yeah, I looked at the code. He replaces the sort says the bug is gone, must be a bug in how the sort is used. Sure seems likely but where is the actual bug. If we are going to spend the time giving a case study of a bug I think showing exactly there the bug is and why it is matters. But I suppose reasonable people can disagree.

The main thing this discussion has shown is the existence of different metrics for program quality, i.e. an error and a bad design, one is wrong the other is undesirable but correct (at least for the current program). Both are bad but in different ways and need to be handled using different techniques.

If that is your opinion. But I should note that IBM, Microsoft, Mozilla, etc. spend a fair bit of money to sponsor and send people to these things. So someone apparently thinks these proceedings count for a fair bit (and companies that care a lot about building robust systems).

I'll leave my part at that.

There are lots of dangerous but technically correct programs. In fact almost every program written is ill specified and most likely has methods that are used in ways that they were not initially intended.

As for my example, I agree in a "good" program one would always use it according to the given specifications. Doing anything else is breaking modularity and invites errors when making later changes. If you fail to understand the difference between modularity/abstraction (using the semantics provided by the contracts) and correctness (producing desired results) then I cannot help you.

No what Rob demonstrated was that replacing the call to sort made the error go away. But several things were changed here as well (most notably the random number generation and initial seeding were probably altered substantially). So, while he is right that calling sort to get a purmutation is a bad idea and he is (probably) right that the sort was the problem, this is never actually shown in the article. He just assumes that the bug went away so it must mean that the sort was the problem (but as I showed above this need not be the case).

As for your concern for me, I doubt if my code has appeared on TheDailyWTF, but I do know that I recently had some of my work in the ACM proceedings of "Verification Model Checking and Abstact Interpetation" on modeling the semantics of programs for later verification applications. So, I do know a bit about program correctness and specification. How about you?

You do realize there is a difference between code that is dangerous (but technically correct) and code that is actually buggy. As per my quicksort example. Dangerous, but correct.

You are getting intent and results confused. Calling my quicksort routine with an invalid compare function clearly violates the intent of the contract abstractions but functionally produces the correct results. The same may happen with your sqrt(-1) example, it is a bad idea from a modularity standpoint but may be functionally correct.

If you want to talk about if that is the case for the browser selection, well, I am glad you agree that determining if the implementation of the JS quicksort routine causes the bug (or if it is something else) would be a good idea. Unfortunately the author of the article was happy to jump to premature (although not unreasonable) conclusions.

And don't worry about me being a programmer. My code is quite reliable and in fact I do a lot of work on software reliability and correctness.

Look, I agree with you on mis-using the sort routine. Using a method to do something unintended does not cause bugs, it makes them more likely and is bad form. But without further analysis it is not certain if and why the sort is the source of the bug.

As for your challenge see the first example of quicksort from wikipedia:

--------
function quicksort(array)
    var list less, greater
    if length(array) 1
        return array
    select and remove a pivot value pivot from array
    for each x in array
        if x pivot then append x to less
        else append x to greater
    return concatenate(quicksort(less), pivot, quicksort(greater))
------

Note that this correctly implements quicksort. By induction on length we show the uniform distribution:

length = 1: trival.
length = 2: a 50/50 comparison has a 50% chance of producing either order.
length = k: Each element has a 50% chance of being in less and a 50% chance of greater. By induction we will get permutations of each of these uniformly. Since we have a uniform chance of putting each element in each of these (and pivot is selected uniformly at random) the combination of the three will produce all purmutations with equal probability.

So if you want to argue the effects of possible implementation details then that is fine but that was my point. These implementation details are key to determining what actaully caused the problem (which as shown above may not be the sort at all). The article never addresses these only says the problem must be there, then after changing multiple things the problem isn't.

Yeah that is exactly what I wanted because the article was about why a particular javascript implementation produced a poor distribution for the browser selection screen in the EU browser ballot. That is a specifc bug in a specific implementation.

I can tell you that failure to do array bounds checking before loads/stores will lead to bugs as well. But that does not explain why a specific bug exists. If you want to discuss poor programming practices that is fine but I did not find this a very enlightening way to do it.

And if you run bubble sort, as described in basic algorithms, it will always terminate (regardless of the comparator) since progress is always made via the loop indexing. In fact termination is often not a function of the loop body behavior. One only needs to show that there is an order (which is not infinitely decending/asscending) on some function of the program state in order to ensure termination. For bubble sort this is just the order on the loop index counter (i).

No there is no guarantee and the article does not specify which sorting algorithm is actually used. But any reasonable sorting algorithm should terminate very quickly even with the incorrect comparison function. Which is one of the reasons I found the article annoying, lots of general claims but very little analysis in the end.

I usually don't post much but for some reason the article struck me as designed to have just enough technical content to seem authoritative but that the intent was simply a chance to get in some cheap shots at Microsoft.
 

I agree with your general point. The particular implementation was not good. Violating method contracts leads to bugs. Yes, obviously. But issue was poor distribution in the random numbers. And the author never determined why this was the case. Was it the implementation of quicksort, an issue with seeding when run in a tight test harness, as you mention does it used different sorts for different input sizes, etc?

So yes, we have a program that is poorly written and produces the wrong answer. We also have an article that is poorly written and does not explain why the results are what they are (other than don't violate method contracts, which is good advice but not very enlightening).

Most likely I graduated from a different school but I appreciate that you asked.

You are quite right the formal precondition of the sort method is violated and this implementation is quite sketchy in that respect. However, that does not tell us what the distribution errors are caused by. As Rob is making other strange statements like possible non-termination (which should be impossible in any reasonable quicksort), I am not particularly happy to just believe him without a more careful analysis (e.g. seeding, how the test harness was implemented, pivot selection, etc.).

Yes I am well aware of this, in my post I state a "simple quicksort" algorithm which precludes several of the issues you mention and I discusses the possibility of problems in the pivot selection. But as you will note the article does not discuss any of these issues so we have no idea if it is one of these or not (it just claims it must be the sorting).

So we basically have an article that says I ran a benchmark and I can't explain the results so I'll just make up something that sounds good.

And to follow up after re-reading the article he claims that non-termination is possible. But since in quick-sort each recursive call is to a smaller list (we removed the pivot element otherwise the algorithm has real problems) the sort must always terminate.

Now this might not be a very elegant solution and definitely violates the abstract specifications of a sort routine but the problems pointed out by Rob are not actually the real problems. Way to go slashdot, always making sure articles that slag on Microsoft are factually accurate .