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Comment: Re:Surely just any thinking at all would do it (Score 1) 1258

by MobyTurbo (#39827357) Attached to: Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief

"Realistic" is, first and foremost, about being consistent with observable facts. Given that we have plenty of evidence of human settlements from before 5772 years ago - like, you know, numerous tools and even some buildings - as well as having a considerable fossil record that nicely outlines our evolution as a species - it sounds to me like " running around in our drawers for over 500,000 years" is a perfectly realistic claim.

I hate to cop-out, but reading a book on the subject of creation by an Orthodox Rabbi (some of whom, such as Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, are even accredited scientists.) might disabuse you of some of these notions. ;-) There really isn't enough space here to debunk these claims thoroughly, except to begin with the fact that they fly in the face of logic, as I noted.

Comment: Re:Surely just any thinking at all would do it (Score 1) 1258

by MobyTurbo (#39827185) Attached to: Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief

So, simply put, the Jews know that the world was created in six literal days, and that all of humanity literally came from Adam and Eve?

Simply put, you're putting it too simply. That having been said, in a sense you're pretty close, yeah, as the commentaries don't actually deny the basic facts. That having been said, this isn't the only world that G-d created, in the Midrash, G-d "created and destroyed worlds". The Tiferes Yisroel on the Mishnah writes, that this explains phenomena such as dinosaur fossils. (He wrote this in the late 18th century CE, long before Darwin, incidentally.)

I'd actually posit that humanity beginning 5772 years ago is a lot more realistic than claiming that we were running around in our drawers for over 500,000 years (or a hundred times that of recorded history, to put it in perspective.) prior to discovering civilization with these big brains that are so obviously made for this.

Comment: Re:Surely just any thinking at all would do it (Score 1) 1258

by MobyTurbo (#39826585) Attached to: Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief

True, but when it all comes down to it, one is still believing in a floating guy in space that made everything. It's a bit weird.

Actually, Orthodox Judaism insists that G-d is not corporal in any way, who, in the Maimonidean formulation, creates the universe via knowledge of himself. So, strictly speaking, belief in a floating guy in space is not what we believe in. The Rambam (Maimonidies) even brands any corporal attributes (except as scriptural allegory of course) a heresy, though the commentary of the Ra'avad disagrees about that.

Comment: Re:Surely just any thinking at all would do it (Score 1) 1258

by MobyTurbo (#39826483) Attached to: Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief

Even orthodox Jews don't take all the stories in the bible as literal. They study them as lessons to learn. Devout religious belief is about much more than taking the religion's documents literally.

That's not true. Jews are required to know that the Tanach is historically true, although they recognize that the book's emphasis is on moral education and spiritual refinement. What Jews are not required to believe is that every midrash and aggadeta in the oral law is literally true.

Right, but you wouldn't describe Rashi's or Ramban's understanding of peshat, the plain meaning, to be identical to that of l'havdil elef havdolos, a fundamentalist xtian preacher - would you? Even the peshat is often viewed through the lens of the Oral Torah, its interpretation.

Comment: Re:Surely just any thinking at all would do it (Score 1) 1258

by MobyTurbo (#39826305) Attached to: Analytic Thinking Can Decrease Religious Belief

Actually, Orthodox Jews are not total literalists (though the layer of peshat, the plain meaning, which is often quite different than the meaning people take from say the KJV, "still remains" as the Talmud says), but they are a form of inerrantist. Speaking as an Orthodox Jew myself.

This doesn't make much sense within the Protestant belief spectrum, especially in the US, but essentially we believe in an authoritative system of interpretation that can only be learned, and internalized, after much intensive study. So much for religiosity and analytical thought being at odds, I found Talmudic study much more difficult and challenging intellectually than my college courses actually.

Of course, there is also a faith component as well, and although it doesn't have the xtian "credo absurdum est" promoted as part of it's credo, if one studies mussar and chasidic works they are more on the "emotional side" and address those intutitive as opposed to analytical tendencies a bit more, albeit in a much more rationalistic framework than the authors of the study were probably addressing. (Mussar and Chabad Chassidus are both emotive and very systematic compared to the faith of other right-wing adherants.)

I often wonder if there was a reason why Mr. Spock of Star Trek was casted to be played by Leonard Nimoy, who's Jewish. (And even uses some Jewish religious symbology such as the Cohenic sign in the shape of the letter "shin" in the hand shape he uses "Live long and prosper") Of course, this is probably an irrational assumption as Kirk and Chekov were both Jewish actors as well, it probably was a Holywood conspiracy. ;-)

Comment: Re:Windows Mobile? (Score 2) 154

by MobyTurbo (#39300675) Attached to: Microsoft To Shut Down App Store For Windows Mobile

You can run unsigned code on Android. There's an option you can enable in the settings. Then you can just drop a .apk onto the device via USB, wifi, whatever, and install it manually.

You can download CAB files, or use special EXE files, to install stuff outside of Microsoft's app store on Windows Mobile too.No option enabling required. In fact, before they made their app store, that was the only way to do it. The best app store for winmo is Omarket anyway, which offers tons of freeware for download instead of the expensive (especially in MS's store) winmo commercial apps.

Comment: Re:and where is exactly the problem? (Score 1) 915

by MobyTurbo (#39012877) Attached to: Journalist Arrested By Interpol For Tweet
I know I'm going to regret this, but since you seem to be a tolerant person of good will, I will respond honestly and respectfully. Hopefully neither of us are like the people who want to execute that poor journalist this article was about, and can tolerate each other's human rights to think what we wish to think.

John 14:11 is perhaps the second-most obvious (though there are countless other examples): "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves."

Absent the claim about believing through miracles, a claim of a prophet that is explicitly rejected in the Torah as a method of proof. The test is if he asks us to change our religion, in which case he is a false prophet, not if he produces miracles - which the Torah tells us to not heed. The rest of that sentence, by the way, about G-d being in one etc, could nearly be said by any Chabad Chasid, though not in precisely those words.

In this text, he's using "in" in an existential manner; it refers to coexistence and coequality of essence and substance.

You're adding in the trintarian stuff now, do you really want to try to prove the Council of Nicene from the NT?!

The most-most obvious, however, is John 8:58: "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." This is the crucial one because "Yahweh" is simply ancient Hebrew for "I am." At the time, there were something like four or five extant claims to being the messiah. But the one guy calling himself Yahweh was considered a blasphemer.

YKVK is more than just I Am, it's the ground of existence, being and becoming to put it in western terms, something none of flesh and blood could claim of themselves. That's getting into theological territory, however. There is a reason why the other claimants to being the messiah got more Jewish followers, such as Bar Kochba who had many thousands of Jewish followers including Rabbi Akiva shortly after the events depicted in the NT, or Sabbatai Tzvi who had half a million followers in the 17th century CE before his apostacy to Islam. We believe in the Tanakh's description of what the messiah is, and not the author of the Gospel of John, and according to you, what the protagonist of the Gospels said of himself. We have no reason to believe that either our religion changed, or what our scriptures and traditions say the Messiah is, is not the case. There are many good reasons to believe, however, that xtianity is another religion other than Judaism.

After the destruction of the temple by the Romans, Judiasm has had a two-thousand-year identity crisis. Many Jews no longer believe in a moshiach. Others think the moshiach will be just an event, or an idea. A mere concept that will somehow change the world. But in the original Hebrew texts (from before 200 CE, so predating talmudic texts like the mishnah), the moshiach was definitely a person.

I don't wish to be disrespectful, but you are misinformed about Jewish history, and Jewish texts, and overall Jewish belief outside of the Reform and Conservative movements which only began recently and themselves claim to be a "progression" from prior beliefs anyway so they wouldn't disagree with my assessment. The Mishnah and Gemara and all Orthodox Jews (i.e. all Jews until about a hundred and fifty years ago) believe the messiah is a person. Definitely a person, not a deity, or even a mere idea. A person, nearly as great as Moses our Teacher, who will transform the world for good, more than evil men have tried to transform the world for bad in the 20th century and other times.

The belief that he's a mere concept or event that you cite is that of Reform Judaism, not a "2,000 year identity crisis", but from a now almost uniquely American identity crisis. (Originally German, as Reform, was started to combat antisemitism in Germany by making Judiasm less "particular" and more like their more liberal neighbors. That didn't work too well, though before Hitler even in Germany it managed to produce a 85% intermarriage rate.)

I should add that it is your right and privilege to believe otherwise concerning who and what the Torah and prophets and writings teach the messiah is, and I wish you no ill will for having different beliefs than mine. After all, Jews don't believe only Jews get into heaven; so if you follow the 7 laws of Noach you'll be OK, and even if you don't, it is none of my business what you believe or do as long as it doesn't hurt me or others. We believe that all nations except for Amelek will repent when the Messiah comes, and that is when it is proper for non-Jews to change their beliefs to Noachide ones unless they wish of their own free will and persistence to do otherwise beforehand. As we Jews say, Shalom, peace, and I hope nothing I've written has irritated you merely by disagreeing with you, since after all, that's what separates us and the people who will probably execute that poor journalist.

Just when you thought you were winning the rat race, along comes a faster rat!!

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