So you really think never signing the treaty - but acquiring nuclear weapons anyway - is better than withdrawing?

"South Africa dismantled their nuclear program when it was no longer "necessary" to defend apartheid".

Because nuclear missiles are the repressive nation's weapon of choice against rebellious workers.

"To do so, these countries would have to withdraw from the NPT".

You mean the way Israel had to?

"Basically, what you're saying is that you think that if someone on US soil does something illegal, and hides the evidence offshore, the government shouldn't be able to get to said evidence without jumping through a crapton of legal hoops?"

No, what we are saying is that if someone on US soil does something illegal, and hides the evidence offshore, the government shouldn't be able to get to said evidence without respecting the legal systems of whatever foreign nations are involved. Just as those nations wouldn't come rummaging around in the USA without asking for the permission and cooperation of its legal system.

I understand that you might resent all the extra time and trouble. But it is the difference between being ruled by law and being ruled by a guy with a stone club.

"That's the cost of being a multi-national corporation, if you don't like it then don't incorporate in those jurisdictions".

Best news EVER!!!! At a single stroke, we get rid of McDonalds, Starbucks, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter...

Oh wait. How are we going to get by without Amazon and Google???

"This is the US judicial system putting US companies between a rock and a hard place - the company has to comply with EU laws or face penalties, while also complying with a US court order or face penalties".

As far as I can see, the only way out for the company is to cease trading in the EU immediately. (Do not pass GO, do not collect 200 euros). If applied on a large scale, that would do nothing for the US GDP or balance of payments.

"The basic concept here is that data does not exist in the physical world. Where the electrons are is irrelevant if the entity that controls it exists in the US".

That is a really, really lame idea. Whether or not "data" exists in the physical world, something physical must exist for anyone to be able to use that data. Where the electrons are, that is where the data is for all practical purposes.

If the corporation that controls the data were to be dissolved and cease to exist, the data would still be right there as long as the electrons continue to exist and do their thing.

"But, in practice, it can only enforce them within its jurisdiction or via treaty".

Or by threats of overwhelming violence. A situation that comes close the obliterating the distinction between law and brute force.

So from now on, any country in which Microsoft operates can demand access to all its computers in the USA?

Funny, isn't it? But Lenin foresaw it exactly, when he remarked "the capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them".

Ironically, MAD works only when none of the participants are actually mad. Unfortunately for us.

Anyway, the glove puppets in Kiev are being operated by people with plenty of WMD. Which they are hoping to line up, wheel-to-wheel, right on the Russian border. As well as filling up the Black Sea with nuclear-armed ships, especially if they can take Crimea away from Russia and deprive it of a sea port closer than the Arctic Circle.

Although it's lucky for the inhabitants of Donyetsk and Lugyansk. Because the nutjobs in Kiev would probably have used them by now.

"China is secretive..."

Although not quite as secretive as Israel, which (rather cleverly) denies having any nuclear weapons while relying heavily on the fact that everyone knows it does. Reminds me of Raymond Smullyan's celebrated book on logic, entitled "What is the name of this book?"

Except that recently the USA has been going to quite extreme lengths to antagonize both China AND Russia. Whereas they (although never the best of pals) have been moving closer together under the outside pressure. I wonder when Brazil, or some other South American nation) will acquire ballistic thermonuclear missiles? India, of course, already has them... what about South Africa?