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Comment Re: HOWTO (Score 1) 1081

Well, I can think of a few differences:

  1. The first case costs the state (taxpayers) significantly more money because of legal bills.
  2. There's more time for the error to be discovered in the second case, which means the wrongfully convicted may not die in a cell.
  3. The blood of innocent isn't on society's collected hands because they didn't deliberately murder an innocent man.

The first is only the case because we have an inefficient system and because we recognize how easily we get convictions wrong (thus a nearly endless appeals process in an attempt to avoid executing an innocent person). Fix the system, streamline the outcomes. The second case is essentially the same as the first. We understand our current system to be less effective at distinguishing guilt from innocence and we understand at least part of that to be due to biases built into the system based on race, money, family, fame, etc.

Executions are never really "fair, equitable, efficient [or] effective". Legals costs make them expensive and inefficient, in America they are predominantly performed on black prisoners which makes them more racist than fair or equitable, and since they are more expensive and have a lower deterrence value than life in prison they are not terribly effective.

None of this an inherent quality to executions; you're merely describing the issues with the system we have today. I don't take issue with that and in fact outlined some of how I would suggest we go about resolving that. Fair, equitable, efficient, effective justice is the goal; not a description of what we have today.

Frankly, all it does is satisfy a very primal urge to see a simplistic punishment applied to the person who we believe has done wrong. There's a conservative part in all of us that wants to see death dealt to those who have wronged us, but unfortunately, that's neither practical, reasonable nor moral.

Now here you're incorrect; not about the primal urges, but about how they apply to state executions. The idea behind the existing system of executions is supposed to be that all emotion is removed and an objective standard is implemented by a society wishing to rid itself of individuals deemed beyond redemption. I would agree that we often fail to meet the ideals of that idea, but that does not mean it need always be that way. With a reformed system that has incorporated all the knowledge of how and why we get arrests and convictions wrong and a reformed prison system that successfully rehabilitates people instead of turning them into more vicious and efficient criminals, we're inevitably left with a group of people who are beyond rehabilitation. They're so fundamentally broken, so destructive to our society, that the best outcome for society as a whole is to remove those individuals permanently from our society (which includes prison guards and prisoners who actually can be rehabilitated). The only way to do so effectively and humanely is execution.

This is all simply an intellectual exercise at this point. I don't expect these reforms to be made in any widespread sense anywhere in the US any time soon (if ever). I'm not defending the existing system's problems. I'm not claiming those problems don't exist. I'm simply demonstrating that there is nothing inherently savage, primal, or unjust about the death penalty itself. Its implementation in our existing system is as flawed as the rest of our existing system, but there is nothing intrinsically flawed in the concept of executing those who are guilty beyond reasonable doubt and beyond rehabilitation.

Comment Re: HOWTO (Score 1) 1081

As I stated, we need significant improvements in our system starting with an overhaul from the police investigations to the courtrooms and everything in between. We should learn from cases where we know we got it wrong so we can avoid making those mistakes again. Once all systemic problems are resolved and actual rehabilitation with measurably positive outcomes are established in the prison system, determine who can be rehabilitated and do so, who is not and execute them.

I'm not expecting these changes to happen today, tomorrow, or in ten years. I'm describing an ideal wherein we would apply evidence and outcome based approaches to doing a righteous justice system where the most expedient and efficient means of meeting the goals of society are employed.

Comment Re: HOWTO (Score 1) 1081

There is no difference in the end result to the individual dying. There is certainly a difference to the guards exposed to a violent predator for potentially decades on end and there is certainly a difference in the overall risk of recidivism while that individual is alive. The point was simply that a sentence of life in prison is effectively the same as a sentence of death in prison from the perspective of the individual who's dying in prison.

Comment Re: HOWTO (Score 1) 1081

Being wrongly convicted and dying in a gas chamber due to organ failure is different from being wrongly convicted and dying in a cell due to organ failure how, exactly?

We should make every effort to ensure no innocent person is wrongfully convicted. We need a lot of reforms throughout our criminal justice systems to make that happen. We should be taking lessons for groups like the Innocence Project to better understand where we're going wrong and improve. We should look at the rules of evidence and how juries deliberate to determine what works well and what has poor outcomes. We should do things like this throughout the process and on a regular basis.

But at the end of the day, we aren't throwing every cell open to let everyone roam free on the off chance that somebody innocent slipped through the cracks. The system should be fair, equitable, efficient, and effective. We should rehabilitate those who can be rehabilitated and execute those who cannot. Keep it simple, efficient, and constantly improving. It will never be perfect. We, as any society, must accept that fact. And whether someone dies in a box of old age or dies in a box by execution, where that person is innocent, we have all failed them. We must make every reasonable effort to avoid that possibility, accept our mistakes, learn from them, and constantly improve. And yes, we're a long way away from any of that today. I welcome an overhaul of our system.

Comment Re:Nitrogen asphyxiation? (Score 1) 1081

Why on Earth do we need observers? Make the chamber windowless, run it for several hours with a heart monitor that turns on after say a couple hours, and then come by and collect the corpse. How hard is that? You can use any gas that can replace oxygen slowly enough to not cause pain and suffering. Plenty of research on that one.

Comment Re: job description? (Score 1) 1081

Just another argument for using simpler methods for execution. Take a gas chamber and replace the oxygen slowly enough that the individual loses consciousness, then eventually dies peacefully. Why we've come up with all these extraordinarily complex methods of carrying out what ought to be an absurdly simple sentence is beyond me. Put the person in a chair, play some classical music, drop the O2 levels, and let the life of a violent and destructive individual end so the rest of society may be spared.

Comment Re:Please stop. Just stop (Score 1) 1081

Could you please explain the difference between someone dying in an state execution chamber and someone dying in their prison cell of organ failure ("old age")?

Seems like neither is desirable and each has the same effect. While we should certainly do all we can to ensure no innocent people are sentenced to anything, that doesn't extend to letting everyone out of prison because there might be somebody innocent locked up with all the guilty people.

Comment Re:Please stop. Just stop (Score 1) 1081

How many? Could you please list confirmed innocent people who have been executed?

It's generally understood that no justice system is perfect. My guess is that for every person you can find who's been executed, then later found to have been innocent, I can find someone who died after decades in prison and was later found to have been innocent. Seems neither is particularly appealing and we should do all we can to avoid them. That doesn't mean letting everyone out of prison to ensure we don't ever punish innocent persons.

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