"...mostly liberals who want to control everything via Government decree."

That's a completely inaccurate depiction of progressives (I don't use the "L" word any more). But it would go far to explain why you don't understand our position.

My position is "people first". We need a network that serves the people. Capitalists seem to say "business first" and let the free market sort everything out. But the whole notion of "free market" is bullshit--it basically means an unregulated market "free" to be controlled, manipulated and corrupted by the highest bidder.

We want the government to regulate only insofar as they are the last hope to protect the interests of the people (which, arguably, they are not doing such a terrific job of, but that's a topic of debate for another day).

"Net Neutrality is like saying I have to use a Prius to haul 2 tons of bricks, or I have to us USPS instead of Fed/Ex or UPS."

Where did you read that? It says no such thing.

All Net Neutrality does is say the Prius, the F250 and the Tesla all have equal access to the roads. Along with USPS, FedEx and UPS. You can use whichever you want.

Eliminate net neutrality and the owner of the roads can charge all sorts of bizarre tarrifs. They can say that Prius will cost $25 for 100 miles but the F250 costs $100 for the same distance. In that case we're likely to end up trying to haul the 2 tons of bricks in a Prius, simply for economic reasons.

Moreover, they can charge a fee to the owner of the vehicle along with the recipient of the package. Make sure they get their cut both ways.

Nissan/Renault combined, globally, I think you're correct. The Zoe is the best selling EV in Europe, yet not available outside that market.

No question they have their hands full, and an uphill battle for years to come. But I'm not going to count them out yet. Tesla has emerged from adversity over and over. They are focused and driven, and this attitude mirrors their leader, Musk.

With the projected volume that Musk has committed to, 10,000 cars a week by the end of 2018, they may catch up to demand in a couple years. Of course they also have a history of slipped schedules, so there is still much to prove. The car doesn't need to be profitable at first, but they do need revenue, which will come with deliveries.

That said, there are risks to becoming a public company, and if shareholders decided to pull out tomorrow Tesla would be in trouble. But I don't see that happening soon unless there are any crippling setbacks for the young company.

He wasn't comparing them to each other, he was comparing both to a Madoff scheme (going back to the OP). I understood his point, you apparently missed it entirely.

It was a flawed topic to begin with. Madoff's "enterprise" was entirely financial, Tesla is a technology and manufacturing company. Madoff's collapse was only a matter of time, Tesla's future remains to be seen.

I'm sure you realize this, but Cadillac's main market is North America where they sell ~150k a year.

The Leaf does fine in winter. Only the drivers who don't know how to precondition their cars are cold and have foggy windows. Once preconditioned, it doesn't have enough battery range to get cold again. 50 miles and you're done until recharged.

The Leaf has two real problems: Not enough range and lack of battery thermal management. The cars in northern, colder states have held up fine. In the south, their batteries become unusable after a few years. Those are pretty big flaws.

That's only partly true. EVs all need tires, suspension, brakes (rarely). Plus there is steady collision work, though much of that is done by independent shops.

Dealers will solve the revenue problem once they figure out they are marketing a lifestyle, not just a car. Bring on the accessories.

The real problem for the dealers, and the major automakers, is that they have no idea how to break into new markets. They survive through repeat business and stealing each other's customers. They have faced a saturated market for decades.

Still, if enough customers show up in dealers asking for EVs, they will sell them. They will have no choice. This isn't happening today in anything but tiny numbers. I'd love to hear a single story of a dealer who converted a traditional car buyer to electric--I simply don't believe it happens.

(When I bought my Volt I laid a trap for my Chevy dealer. I didn't tell them what car I wanted, instead I described all the features of the Volt without mentioning the electric drivetrain. They never suggested it. Only when I asked "what about the Volt" did the salesman start talking about it.)

In the luxury market, Model S and X are selling okay. Tesla has managed to deliver enough to rival brands like Cadillac.

Whether their success can translate to the mass market is the $50b question.

Do you believe then that a majority of Model 3 deposits will not convert to sales? If just half of the deposits become sales, the Model 3 will be the top selling EV of all time. Leaf sales are sluggish and the Bolt EV is expensive and slow to roll out. Anyone else is a small player in the market or doesn't have a vehicle in production yet. The best competition so far seems to be the Volt, which is a plug-in hybrid rather than a true EV.

Tesla is going to sell as many as it can build, certainly this year and for probably most/all of 2018. The real struggle for Tesla will be scaling up its production, service and support, and still making a profit. But the initial Model 3 purchases starting this year are certainly going to improve its cash flow.

Electric vehicles are fighting for market share at a time near historically low gasoline prices. There are several reasons for that--a price war between OPEC and domestic producers, fossil fuel industry protecting itself from growth of EVs, and decreased fuel demand due to more EVs and fuel efficient cars.

But the net effect is that few consumers can see the real value of an electric vehicle, and that's not about to change. With Tesla, consumers are seeing something else besides driving on pure electricity.

GM and Nissan both struggle to market their electric vehicles. They are building them, sales are sluggish (the Volt is doing okay) and most people know little about them. Dealers aren't prepared to educate consumers.

I think this is a case where they simply don't know what else to do. Musk has won over the mind share by building beautiful cars everyone wants. Nissan built a car that looks like a frog.

Very little, compared to extracting fossil fuels (fracking, strip mining etc.).

All manufacturing requires energy, resources and may pollute. It doesn't matter what you are making. Recycling helps. Just look at the pollution caused by discarding electronics, which is far higher in volume than discarded batteries.

The question is moot unless you are willing to stop buying manufactured goods. Lithium batteries are no different.

They are. The Volt's base price has dropped from the mid 40's to about $33k. With more EV range. The current Leaf's price has also dropped, in spite of a capacity increase from 24 kWh to 30 kWh in the base model.

And the Bolt EV, with a net MSRP under $30k and 200+ miles of range, would not have been possible a few years ago. Soon the Model 3 will join it.

Where I live, my EV compares to a 38 MPG gasoline car in total CO2 output. http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/images/2015/11/vehicles-m-emissions-map-with-notes.jpg

And importantly, your diesel won't bring 38 MPG if you are driving in stop-and-go traffic in the city, idling at stoplights, etc. You'll exceed that on the highway, but in the real world cars spend much of their time off the highway.

A Prius may have less CO2 output than a typical EV where I live, but those are a hybrid with gasoline generator, with similar drivetrains to electric cars (including a battery).

In California, where half our EVs are sold, an EV has total wheels-to-wells emissions comparable to 87 MPG. Better than any diesel or gasoline powered automobile.

These numbers are increasing as coal is phased out, and some drivers opt for 100% renewable energy as I have done.