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Journal JDWTopGuy's Journal: On terrorists 31

Journal by JDWTopGuy

About this Iraqi prisoner deal... This incident could barely be considered torture, and the people who did it are being punished, and don't forget... those weren't innocent civilians. They were terrorists and the like. Unlike in the Saddam Hussein system where they would have been innocent people who would truly be tortured, and the actions would be condoned by the government.

America and the world needs to see this beheading video. If we can show movies that have this sort of thing in them, we can show the real thing. Even if the broadcast stations can't because of the FCC, that's no excuse for the cable channels.

Think about the difference, people. We give terrorists due process. They gave america the world's worst terrorist attack, killing thousands of civilians. They gave Berg five hits to the neck with a dull blade. We get mad that some of our soldiers didn't treat these people humanely, meanwhile they chop the head off a civilian and praise their god.

Don't tell me that we started this. Ever since they saw our weakness in Mogadishu, terrorists have been attacking us on our land and off. We didn't even bother fighting back until after the September 11th attack.

This country is a superpower, and we have no business laying down and letting terrorists rape us. We need to show that anybody who engages in or supports or harbors terrorism will not be tolerated. If you can't understand that, you should move to Canada. No offence to any canadian readers!

Here are some stills from the video. Do you want to let them get away with that?

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On terrorists More

On terrorists

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  • Ever since they saw our weakness in Mogadishu, terrorists have been attacking us on our land and off.
    It really goes back to the hostages taken in Iran under the Carter administration. Since that horrible show of our weakness, the radical Muslim terrorists have been hitting us and planning ever increasing attacks. It amazes me how so many people for so many years just ignore the whole of human history. Appeasement works, and terrorists are just poor friendly guys who want to make the world a better pla
    • I know. It's amazing how these people will ignore the violence of terrorists but call american soldiers babykillers and Bush a murderer.

  • About this Iraqi prisoner deal... This incident could barely be considered torture, and the people who did it are being punished...

    It doesn't matter if the abusive treatment dealt out in this Prison, and others, and in particular in Guantanamo falls short of the level of Saddam's level of brutality. It doesn't matter if you choose to classify it as falling short of actual torture.

    Do you realize the official US policy violates the Geneva Convention? I suggest you read this article: Rumsfeld Defend [washingtonpost.com]

    • Did the terrorists or Hussien sign or abide by the Geneva convention?
      • When I was a teenager I saw an old documentary about the Pacific theatre during World War 2. There was some combat footage showing GIs flushing out Japanese bunkers. The GIs were using flame-throwers. The Japanese were emerging completely covered in flaming napalm. And the narrator said something like, "Look, BBQ nips!"

        The narrator went on to explain that while the use of flame-throwers was prohibited by the Geneva Convention the USA could use them against the Japanese because the Japanese didn't sign

        • Following the Geneva Convention now makes it more likely that Americans taken prisoner in this and future conflicts will be treated humanely.

          I'm sorry, but that's the kind of idealist thinking that handcuffs us in these sort of situation. Terrorists are not going to treat us better because we treat them better. They started this by attacking civilians and military personnel solely because they hate us. We are fighting them in self defense, and they deserve pretty much anything that happens to them.

          War is

          • I'm sorry, but that's the kind of idealist thinking that handcuffs us in these sort of situation. Terrorists are not going to treat us better because we treat them better.

            Terrorists? Where there actually any terrorists at Abu Ghraib? I don't classify insurgents fighting against an occupation as terrorists. Mind you I consider myself a Patriotic American who wants to see our troops successful in Iraq but I still don't think you can qualify most of the insurgents in Iraq as terrorists.

            The bastards that

      • JDWTopGuy! Read this article! [msn.com]

        I have read a number of articles, in a number of US newspapers, that are reporting the same thing. The Bush administration, in late 2001, chose to follow a very controversial interpretation of the Geneva Convention.

        Why was it necessary for the Justice Department lawyers to dream up this interpretation?

        I believe that this shows that under the most recent revisions of the Geneva Convention it is to be extended, by default, to all official armed forces personnel, of any na

  • I'd like to invite comments on this account of abuse at Camp Bucca. Does this sound like "due process" [columbiatribune.com] to you?

    Here is more info on Camp Bucca [nydailynews.com].

    • Here is an account of the case of Jose Padilla, [nzherald.co.nz] American citizen, held without charge, and with very limited contact with his lawyers.

      Padilla is being held as an "Enemy Combatant" -- even though he is a US citizen -- even though he was not captured on a battlefield.

      Why aren't the usual protections of his rights as a citizen being extended to Mr Padilla?

      • Why aren't the usual protections of his rights as a citizen being extended to Mr Padilla?

        Ummm, well let's see here... oh yeah! Because he's a fucking terrorist, that's why. Treating terrorists as a regular criminal law-enforcement is one of the contributing factors to the 9/11 attacks.

        You see, you can't convict somebody of a crime they haven't committed. However in a war, all you need to detain someone is evidence that they are the enemy.

        Does it really make sense to you to wait until the attack has take
        • You Americans, like other modern states, are trying to tune and manage a machinery of government where their are checks and balances between the various branches.

          If I understand what you are suggesting here you think that risks terrorist pose to America should mean Americans should relax those checks and balances if the executive says they have reason to believe someone is a terrorist, or is an associate of a terrorist?

          I gather you are skeptical of newspapers you find too liberal? Would you take a look

          • If I understand what you are suggesting here you think that risks terrorist pose to America should mean Americans should relax those checks and balances if the executive says they have reason to believe someone is a terrorist, or is an associate of a terrorist?

            No. There has to be evidence. If there is evidence, then they can be considered enemy combatants.

            • No. There has to be evidence. If there is evidence, then they can be considered enemy combatants.

              OK

              And when does their evidence have to be subjected to some kind of review?

              Do you know the case of Maher Arar?

              Arar is a Canadian citizen who was born in Syria. But he has lived in Canada for decades. He is a senior computer scientist, who lives in Ottawa. About two years ago he was overseas, on a family vacation. He got an urgent call from his employers. They needed him back in Ottawa. So he lef

              • This article illustrates the standard of evidence and arbitrariness [findlaw.com] used by the executive branch. Sorry, I didn't ask this in my other reply -- how do we know that the standards of evidence used to hold Padilla are any better than that used in Arar's case, or in the case of these guys who may have over-stayed their visas?

                • Another view on Padilla [frontpagemag.com] and a blurb from when he was arrested [usatoday.com].

                  The guy was a former gang member, among other things. He did not have a clean record. He was suspected of being directly involved, not just being somebody who knew somebody.

                  The goverment probably has been incompetent in this area as well. However, most of these people would have been fine if they had not over-stayed their visas.

                  As to the story of the other guy you mentioned, I have no idea why they would deport him anywhere but Canada assuming
                  • I knew Padilla had been a Juvenile Delinquent. I didn't know he had been an adult felon.

                    But I am going to question the extent to which this should matter. I am going to question whether the fact that the crimes he is suspected of were National Security crimes should mean that he loses the presumption of innocence.

                    You probably know the story of Rubin "Hurricane" Carter. Here in Canada we have had about a dozen high profile cases where guys who had spent many years in prison have been released when new e
                    • I think we've reached something we agree on: Government is often incompetent and needs more checks and balances.

                      Unfortunately, this is easier said than done. And I doubt that there is much difference between Republicans and Democrats. There are allegations that there were some shady things going on in the Clinton administration with FBI files.
                    • For democracy to work well I think it is more important to have a populace that is informed, and is willing to participate in an informed debate over the issues, than it would be to put in more cheques and balances.

                      The campaign spending reform that Senator McCain has been backing would not be necessary if every American was as dedicated and devoted to the democratic process as a Deanite.

                      This would be possible. One real weakness you have in the USA is a kind of self-righteous complacency. For many of y

                    • Voter turnout is low here too, but not, I think, quite as low as it is down there. But we don't have the same kind of blinding patriotism.

                      Well duh, what do canadians have to be proud of?

                      I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.
                    • Canadians have plenty to be proud of.

                      Discovered Insulin.
                      Invented time zones.
                      Invented basketball.
                      Invented the telephone.
                      Four dozen peace-keeping missions.
                      Didn't get involved in the disastrous War in Vietnam.
                      Have no recent association with Imperialism. (Canada sent a small contingent to fight in the Boer War.)

                      You Americans may think they stand for some high principles. But you don't practice them. Your occupation of Iraq is brutal and heavy-handed. You don't treat the Iraqis as if their lives we

                    • Why should America put others before us? That sounds incredibly stupid.

                      If you're a proud Canadian, happy where you are, why do you give a shit about what America does? I don't care what Canada does as long as they leave us alone.

                      In my mind the war on Iraq was justified, and not "brutal and heavy-handed". Most of the criticism is from people politically opposed to the Bush administration. People who will excuse any wrongdoing on the part of a democrat/liberal but will attack a republican with anything they

                    • Why should America put others before us? That sounds incredibly stupid.

                      Duh! Because they are innocent civilians, and you have an obligation to protect their lives under the Geneva Convention?

                      In my mind the war on Iraq was justified, and not "brutal and heavy-handed".

                      So long as your policy of "shoot first ask questions later", or "shoot first [washingtonpost.com] ask no serious questions ever [kuro5hin.org]", is killing large numbers of innocent civilians, I am going to regard your occupation as brutal and heavy-handed.

                      Your att

                    • People who will excuse any wrongdoing on the part of a democrat/liberal but will attack a republican with anything they can.

                      Your perception that Republicans are criticized for things Democrats get away with is an interesting one. I have come across it before -- you aren't the only American who holds this view.

                      But, if that were true, why was there such a long investigation into Clinton and his involvement with a failed savings and loan outfit?

                      The whole Savings and Loan fiasco was Reagan's fault. H

        • Ummm, well let's see here... oh yeah! Because he's a fucking terrorist, that's why.

          I'm sorry I must have missed the part where he was tried and convicted of his crimes. Or did I miss the part where he was actually charged with the crimes they are accusing him of committing?

          You don't have a problem with a system that allows GWB or Rummy to say "That man is a terrorist" and lock him up and throw away the key when that man is an American citizen? Do you really trust that? What happens if somebody accuse

    • I am not denying that there was wrongdoing and incompetence on the part of a few soldiers.

      I'm sure that they will be punished.

      • I am not denying that there was wrongdoing and incompetence on the part of a few soldiers.

        Well, that is a start.

        But cruel and unusual treatment was routine. It was official policy [washingtonpost.com] -- approved at the highest levels. There were procedures established for it. Stripping prisoners naked, not letting them sleep, tying them up in uncomfortable positions, exposing them to extremes of heat and cold, threatening them with attack dogs. These were all established procedures.

        So, it was not a few rogue sol

        • The failure to punish those soldiers was the incompetence I referred to.

          Let me be clear: soldiers violating the rules need to be punished.

          Personally, I have no problem with using sleep depravation and other such mental stress tactics on enemy combatants this way unless it violates a prior agreement between us and them (which they are also bound to).

          Note the word "mental". I do not think it is appropriate to sexually abuse these people. Making them go naked is right on the border, and I am undecided on it
      • As of this writing there are about three dozen deaths in custody under investigation. Various organs of the the US administration can't agree on the exact number. Note: This death in custody [1accesshost.com] didn't occur at Abu Ghraib. It wasn't even US Army personnel. It was the Marines this time. They killed a guy, beat him senseless, and let him broil under the desert sun.

        And the Marines are still at it [signonsandiego.com].

        So, if a cop commits a crime should he or she get a lighter sentence than an ordinary citizan, the same as a

  • I think it has to be said -- Iraqi Prisons look a lot worse today than when JDWTopGuy wrote the parent journal entry on May 12th. More news has come out. And it all looks bad.

    It seems clear that the abuse was not just half a dozen rogue GIs.

    Pathology reports are coming to light showing an increasing number of Iraqis were beaten to death during interrogation. Some of these guys are being interrogated in the prison shower. Why would an interrogator interrogate someone in the shower? The only explanat

  • Hey JDWTopGuy! Why did you go AWOL?

    Maybe it is because you are feeling too shocked? Maybe, when you started this thread, you didn't realize a significant proportion of your compatriots were committing torture in your name? That is how it appears to many of us, around the world. Maybe you followed the links and it seems that way to you too now?

    Well that is forgiveable.

    But if you just decided you didn't want to listen to people who disagreed with you, I think you should re-evaluate the strength of y

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