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Journal salimma's Journal: Separation of ritual and dogma 29

Journal by salimma

Do you find yourself belonging to a certain religious denomination, or finding the rituals appealing, without subscribing to their most central tenets?

Such is my experience with religion. My father is agnostic, my mother Catholic, and I spent a total of ten years in evangelical mission schools, during which my religious beliefs underwent a topsy-turvy journey, oscillating between Catholicism and Protestantism, religious fervour to apathy, bigotry to tolerance. It is quite amusing how hot-headed evangelical preachers in particular criticise modern science without understanding the least bit of it - like the dismissal of evolution as such: 'if we were descended from monkeys, then why has no monkey given birth to a human?'

It is said that most people experience a peak of religiousity at the age of seventeen, and it probably holds true in my case. My disillusionment with organised religion started when noticing that in the last mission school I went to, in Singapore, all students, regardless of religious background, were required to attend weekly sermons, with the exception of the Muslims, due to cultural sensibility. To my surprise my reaction was a slight envy - it's not fair that they could skip this drudgery while other non-Christians, specifically non-evangelicals, have to burden it - and I began questioning my beliefs; prior to that I had always thought of myself as a liberal Christian/Catholic, in that I did not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible but accepted the idea of a Christian God.

I appreciate religions now at an intellectual, cultural level. It is the appreciation that even non-religious people could feel towards religious paintings, carried into religious rituals themselves. My favourite type of service at the moment is the Catholic Latin mass, this despite Roman Catholicism being the second-lowest scoring religion in my Belief-o-Matic test score from Beliefnet. I am likewise interested in Sufi poetry and music, as well as Tibetan Buddhist chants, without necessarily subscribing to all their beliefs.

It is quite saddening (and to be honest, maddening) talking to fanatics who refuse to countenance the possibility that other religions might be equally valid (the contention being that in such a case, all religions would be invalid), this black-and-white, all-or-nothing belief. Such a belief, alas, is not limited to the Taliban and Saudi Wahhabis; a growing number of Christians subscribe to this mindset as well.

Was Huntington correct in his prediction of citizenship being replaced as people's main identity with their religious preference? Or would most people become more accomodating of other religions as globalisation brought people of different cultures and beliefs together? From anecdotal experience, alas, both seem to be happening simultaneously; I know Christian evangelicals going on missions in Peru (already a Catholic country), and Singaporean Christians having a 'Vision 2000' of converting half the country into evangelicalism, and know of Hindu and Muslim fanatics; likewise I know of moderate Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and Jains.

What is your take on religion; could one consistently belong culturally to one religion while holding privately a different set of beliefs?

Tue May 20 Update: Found an excellent on The Atlantic Monthly on religions and civilisations: "I'm Right, You're Wrong, Go To Hell" by Bernard Lewis, an excerpt of it below:

To what extent is a religiously defined civilization compatible with pluralism--tolerance of others within the same civilization but of different religions? This crucial question points to a major distinction between two types of religion. For some religions, just as "civilization" means us, and the rest are barbarians, so "religion" means ours, and the rest are infidels. Other religions, such as Judaism and most of the religions of Asia, concede that human beings may use different religions to speak to God, as they use different languages to speak to one another. God understands them all. I know in my heart that the English language is the finest instrument the human race has ever devised to express its thoughts and feelings, but I recognize in my mind that others may feel exactly the same way about their languages, and I have no problem with that. These two approaches to religion may conveniently be denoted by the terms their critics use to condemn them--"triumphalism" and "relativism."

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Separation of ritual and dogma

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  • I've often thought that being Catholic was more a state of birth than a religion, mostly because of all the people I know that identify themselves as Catholic although they haven't been inside of a church on a non-holiday in years. While the various flavors of Protestantism tend to be more binary: You either are one or you aren't. The interesting thing about both forms of Christanity is that (with a few exceptions) they tend to teach tolerance of other religions.

    However it seems to me that many of the curr

    • I've often thought that being Catholic was more a state of birth than a religion

      That certainly accounts for Spain and Italy having one of the lowest birthrates in Western Europe :)

      Most mainstream Christian denominations (and mainstream Suniism) preach tolerance, I believe. The most fundamentalist Christians tend to be those who claim there is no such things as denominations, thus asserting themselves the bearer of the only true religion.

      Hey, that sums up Wahhabism [wikipedia.org] pretty well too.

      My respect of other

    • The interesting thing about both forms of Christanity is that (with a few exceptions) they tend to teach tolerance of other religions.

      Since when?

      I'm sorry but I know protestants who aren't even tolerant of Catholics, much less other religions.

      • To be more clear, yah, you said "with a few exceptions", but quite honestly, most evangelicals I have ever known were not tolerant. That's a huge segment of Christianity in the USA; I can't speak for overseas.

        • That's a huge segment of Christianity in the USA; I can't speak for overseas.

          Insofar as Christianity is the newest of the main religions in Asia, I would say the situation is even worse; a higher proportion of the Christians are active Christians instead of cultural Christians, and intolerant evangelists made for a higher proportion than in traditionally Christian countries.

          We have lots of 'hip' churches that use rock music, and money-minded preachers that hold services in hotel ballrooms and go around

      • I'm sorry but I know protestants who aren't even tolerant of Catholics, much less other religions.


        Interesting; you might want to read the article I linked in an update; it discusses 'triumphalist' religions and why they would tolerate different sects of their own religion even less than a totally separate religion.
        • Yah, I just finished reading it.

          I suspect that triumphalist vs. relativist is much more individual in nature than it is a characteristic of a given religion. Certainly a religion will lead in one direction or another, but Christianity has been more triumphalist on the whole in the past than it is today, and I had a strong impression that the Ottoman empire was reasonably "tolerant" (I liked the George Washington quote) especially as compared to some of today's more restrictive Islamic regimes (e.g. Iran, a

          • I had a strong impression that the Ottoman empire was reasonably "tolerant"

            The Ottoman empire was reasonably "tolerant" as you said - there is just the poll tax for non-Muslims and the recruitment of Christian children to be raised as Muslims join the Janissariat, their elite guard; they had nothing like the Inquisition, at least, until the Young Turks took over in the early 20th century and instituted the Armenian genocide [armenian-genocide.org]; that is more ethnic-based than religious in nature though.

            As I said, I think t

  • Was Huntingdon correct in his prediction of citizenship being replaced as people's main identity with their religious preference?

    I have heard that 'accusation' leveled at everyting from politics, to economic theory, to sports. Citizenship is on the list but certainly not the end of the list. Me thinks that many of the people that write a lot about that were never really spiritual to begin with and have a quite passing knowledge of whatever they think is replacing religion.

    I happen to be Baptist (no, we
    • "Catholics gone wild"

      The best part of the RC church is, IMO, catholic girls away from mom & dad for the first time at college. :->
      You wouldn't believe what these upstanding ladies will do with a wine cooler (Hey, they were cool when I went to college!) or two for plausible deniability.

      No, I wasn't catholic then. I am now, on paper.

      • The best part of the RC church is, IMO, catholic girls away from mom & dad for the first time at college. :->

        My sister is in a Catholic school, and I can vouchsafe that such a phenomenon is quite common among Catholic schoolgirls - my sister's friends - and single-sex schools in general, actually; I had the misfortune of attending a boy's school for two years.

        Teaching in a Catholic girls' school must be every male teacher's fantasy :)

    • Me thinks that many of the people that write a lot about that were never really spiritual to begin with and have a quite passing knowledge of whatever they think is replacing religion.

      Huntingdon is probably referring more to political religious systems, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran and the Talebans. Though it is interesting to observe that clerical Iran is gradually evolving into a democracy, with the Islamist clerics (a lot fo the reformers are actually clerics as well) hanging on to power through their

      • From what I heard from a Lutheran friend, their rituals are pretty much Catholic, actually.

        I was raised Episcopal and converted to Catholicism in high school, quickly followed by dropping out of the church entirely in college. If you look at the "family tree" if you will, the Episcopal (aka Anglican, or Church of England) and then Lutheran splits off the main body of the Catholic church are the first and therefore the closest in similarity. Many of the others, evangelicals etc. are splinters of splinte

        • If you look at the "family tree" if you will

          Hey, I never really considered denominations in such an evolutionary term, but it does seem to fit observations quite well :)

          Apart from the Orthodox, they're the first major splinter group and their rituals, while equally traditional, are rather different. Then again it could be argued they have developed separately from the beginning.

          The same could probably be said of the Coptic and Armenian churches, but your observation seems to hold for post-Orthodox spl

          • Then again it could be argued they have developed separately from the beginning.

            That would be my position :-). The "original" foundations of Christianity are bifurcated (or as you point out, multi-furcated, but really there are two dominant forms that came out of the origins of the church).

            I'm sure that is a rather uncomfortable point to make to a practising Anglican :)

            Good point; no offense intended to any Anglicans reading this :-). I can't seem to recall the origins of the church being discussed whe

  • Which means we get the Catholic rituals with none of the annoying theological hangups. It's also a denomination which may well hold the current title for most clergy to be branded heretics (even Bishops are regularly accused of heresy, especially from outside the ECUSA!). I say it's better to be a heretic than a child molestor, though.

    • Which means we get the Catholic rituals with none of the annoying theological hangups

      Ah, an American Lutheran :). Alas there is no Lutheran/Episcopalian church I know of in northern England, where I'm studying.

      The Anglican and Catholic services here are watered-down - the Anglicans don't even do the confession of sins anymore, and priests from both camp appear to have lost the power of incantation, so they just drone on and on for an hour...

      I say it's better to be a heretic than a child molestor, thou

      • Indeed. I assume, since Luther himself was married, that marriage is permitted among Episcopalian clergies?

        AFAIK, marriage is permitted in all the Anglican denominations. The ECUSA even allows clergy to divorce and remarry...

        • AFAIK, marriage is permitted in all the Anglican denominations

          Oh yes, I somehow misremembered Episcopals as being American Lutherans instead of Anglicans.

          Anglican clergy has been allowed to marry for a long time - considering the origin of the Church, it comes as no surprise. Does the ECUSA allow women clergy though? The Anglican Church in England and Wales was quite split over the issue, the High Anglican wing opposed and the Evangelical wing in favour.

          • ECUSA has ordained women for over 25 years. The current controversy (and what's led to the heresy charges) is over whether uncloseted homosexuals can be ordained.

            Of course, the ECUSA may merge with some of the American Lutheran groups in the next few years anyway.

            • The current controversy (and what's led to the heresy charges) is over whether uncloseted homosexuals can be ordained.

              That would make them really liberal, in relation to other churches. It is more of an issue with Episcopals than with Catholics I suppose, since with the latter any form of sex is supposed to be forbidden. Though as has been seen, that policy causes problems of its own.

              It would be interesting to see if such a policy change by the Episcopals catalyse the liberalisation of other churches'

            • The current controversy (and what's led to the heresy charges) is over whether uncloseted homosexuals can be ordained

              This might be of interest; the Church of England just appointed its first bishop in favour of gay rights [telegraph.co.uk].

              What is the formal relation between the ECUSA and the Anglican Church of England and Wales? Would it be like that between the Greek and Russian Orthodox, or even closer?

              • There's the Anglican Communion [anglicancommunion.org], which is more of a loose confederation; for traditional reasons, the Archbishop of Canterbury is treated with some deference, but all the constituent bodies are formally equal. There's general agreement on ritual, though not necessarily on doctrine.

      • Ah, an American Lutheran :).

        Oops, correcting myself here. I somehow misremembered the Episcopals as being related to the Lutherans instead of the Anglicans.

        My mistake :)

  • First off, what a great JE, thoughtful and very interesting.

    I was raised catholic and still (I have not been baptised/confirmed in anything else nor have I denounced my membership/etc) a current catholic. I always hated going to church on Sunday mornings cuz our family would always be late, and my father would INSIST on sitting in the front pews. Twas an embarassing time indeed. Nowadays I hardly go now which is something I feel guilty of now and then.

    Currently, my gf is SDA or Seventh Day Adventist,

    • I always hated going to church on Sunday mornings cuz our family would always be late, and my father would INSIST on sitting in the front pews

      Ah. We used to go to the main cathedral in Jakarta, which is always chock-full, so there is no way people who are late could find seats anyway. It is quite embarrassing when we were not quite late and there were some seats scattered near the back, so one would have to excuse oneself past several people to reach a seat. And if anyone is knelt down in prayer.. :)

      Y

      • And if anyone is knelt down in prayer.. :)

        Nowadays I believe the ushers don't let anyone in until particular times during the service. lol. I remember when we were really late and the priest/deacon was reading for the gospel, and STOPPED... until we took our seats, in the SECOND ROW. My god (literally), I was embarassed, but my dad still insisted on sitting near the front.

        Your girlfriend cannot be *that* close-minded though, or she would not even date a non-SDA?

        Yes, and that's prolly why she's

        • I always thought in Catholicism, there were three levels. Baptism (near birth), First Communion, & Confirmation. Where in Confirmation there was a 'choice' in the matter of being catholic or whatever. What I hated even more was sunday school (Jesus, why did it have to be so early in the morning lol and I'd miss my early morning cartoon shows).

          Yes; the way it works in Indonesia though, is that most Catholic kids get their cathechism in Catholic schools. Now the system is like in France, you're suppo

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