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Journal rdewald's Journal: The Executionator. 29

Journal by rdewald

Well, as I'm sure most expected, Gov Schwarzenegger decided to do the politically expedient thing and step aside from his opportunity to spare Tookie. One thing is clear, Arnold's not finished with running for office.

It's also pretty clear that he is not made of the kind of stuff it would take to make a stand for morality against the mob sadism of those who believe we should kill people to show that killing people is wrong.

Some number of employees of the State of California will commit the coldest, most premeditated, most senseless form of murder there is. They will knowingly kill someone they don't know, for reasons that make no moral, logical, rational, or philosophical sense. The killing will accomplish nothing, make no one safer, right no wrong, bring no one back, accomplish no gain for the killers, nor for those for whom they kill. No lives will be saved, nothing of value will come of it. It is just sadistic senseless brutal violence. Mankind at it's worst. No one will be at risk when it happens, no threats will have been issued, there will be no emotional crisis to mitigate the savage coldness of the murder, no advantage will be gained, it is utterly and completely senseless.

Go on, Arnold. This is how you get votes in this country, and it is shameful and tragic. Tookie's pain will be over soon, the rest of us will have to live with his blood on our hands.

This discussion was created by rdewald (229443) for no Foes, but now has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

The Executionator. More

The Executionator.

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  • I'll take it. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by bethanie ( 675210 ) * on Monday December 12, 2005 @08:14PM (#14242944) Journal
    I, for one, am happy to have the blood on my hands.

    It's not about killing to show that killing is wrong -- it's about the fact that when you take another person's life (outside of the conventions of war), you have forfeited the right to your own.

    Killing this man won't undo the wrong that he's done, but it will prevent him from enjoying the privilege which he has denied to others, that is, of living his life out to its otherwise natural end.

    I can be kinder and gentler about a lot of things -- but not about this. Good riddance to him. Let him celebrate his "redemption" on the next plane.

    ....Bethanie....

    • I'm going to have to agree with bethanie here.

      I don't know what the particular circumstances of this case are, but to me it doesn't make much difference. If someone is a serial killer, then yes, by ending their life you can prevent the loss of many others.

      I'm not big on the life in prison without parole deal. Financial strain on the law abiding citizens to make sure someone has a nice comfortable life that they no longer deserve. Yeah, prison's no picnic I'm sure, but it's better than what they

    • Please at least read the first paragraph. From Jon Carroll: [sfgate.com]

      The death penalty is wrong because the state (which is to say: us) should not be involved in killing people, particularly in cold blood. To kill people because they killed people -- it doesn't make any actual sense. A society should be slightly more civilized than its sociopaths. Revenge is an understandable emotion. Greed is an understandable emotion too, but stealing is still not legal. The death penalty does not deter and it does not cure.

      Willia

  • I'm not in favor of the death penalty. For a number of reasons. But I do think it is logical. I teach my children every day that actions have consequences, and I try to make those consequences match the action. Many believe that the appropriate consequence for the taking of human life is to forfeit one's own. Seems pretty logical to me.

    I personally would rather see life in prison with no chance of parole. At the same time I do not completely dismiss those in favor of capital punishment as bein
    • Reason is a construct, a concept that we use in order to understand the world. It is subject to many inflections.

      For example, if one believes that God rewards the killing of people who believe something, or don't believe something, then killing itself becomes a rational decision. If you were to believe that I was going to kill your children, that I could not be stopped in other other way then by ending my life, even if you had no empirical basis for this belief, it would be rational for you to kill me, wo
      • I am new to the anti-death penalty camp. So I'm still processing a lot of things and often I have emotional reactions to statements myself. In both ways.

        As you say, our preconceptions, our world view, the places we start- heavily infuence where we end up. That just makes sense.

        What is interesting is that you and I are coming from very different places and taking different paths, but we end up at the same ultimate destination in regards to capital punishment.

        I think that murder is

      • Killing isn't wrong.

        Murder is.

        There is a difference.

        Shooting someone in the back with a 12 gauge when they're flat on the ground is very far from shooting armed burglars in your livingroom.

        If you believe all killing is wrong, then I must also assume that you believe police should only carry less-lethal weapons? How do you propose to defend your nation from your neighbor who doesn't have the same reservations about violence? How do you stop the group with automatic weapons slaughtering people in a school

        • Appreciate there's a difference between the declaration that killing is wrong and the vow to never do it. Please.

          • Of course, what purpose does the declaration serve though if it doesn't affect the way you behave? If you're willing to in an extreme situation consider lethal force to be necessary, what does it matter if it's right or wrong?

    • I personally would rather see life in prison with no chance of parole.

      Effectively that's a death sentence without the balls to enforce it, instead passing the bloody hands to your grand-children.
      • I don't think so at all. I think if you could ask Williams right now, he'd jump all over life in prison instead of execution.

        There are, I think two ideas in opposition here. The first to me, is a human being who has proven that they have the capacity to take others lives. Such a human should not be allowed to be out amongst other humans. If you apprehend such a person, then set them free, and they do it again; how could that be acceptable? Therein lies the appeal, in my mind to capital punishme
        • My fundamental issue with life imprisonment is its inhumanity. Most obvious that we would never treat an animal so poorly as to lock it in a cell of that size for the duration of its life. More subtlely, it shows a willful lack of responsibility on the part of society to enslave future generations to enact its punishment. Life imprisonment is a death sentence, just extended for a few generations. If one feels strongly enough to sentence a man to death for their crimes, one should be responsible enough to do
          • Not really... Life imprisonment does allow "reversal". Now, I don't know much about this case in particular, but consider that an innocent man could be sentenced to death. Such things have happened, so don't say it's not possible.

            If you kill that man, and the truth is uncovered someday, you cannot undo what you have done.

            If he's imprisoned for life, you can at least give him back the rest of his life and eventually "buy back in damages" the years you have robbed him.

            No, life imprisonment is definate

            • I didn't say it was the same, I said that life imprisonment was effectively a death sentence. Consider the plight of an innocent man sentenced to life in prison, whether he is exhonerated or not, a grave injustice has occured. That grave injustice occured when he was convicted, and even worse, we caged him like an animal. No, the death penalty is not inhumane - the inhumanity is a judicial system that is broken to the point of allowing the innocent to be convicted rather than allow a few guilty walk free.

              As
  • If someone has been proven to be a murder (and let's assume for sake of discussion that this case was proven), is it not reasonable to kill him to keep him from murdering again? Maybe that by itself is not justification for ending his life, but does it not contribute some portion of a valid reason to kill him?
    • The argument assumes facts not known.

      You don't know that someone who has committed murder is going to do it again at some point in the future, just as you don't know that someone who has never committed murder will not do so at some point in the future.

      The argument pleads for certainty that simply doesn't exist.

      The issue is punishment. Is death punishment? Then we are all condemned at birth, aren't we?

      There's not an argument that holds up. You can't make sense of killing. It's wrong.
  • I'm against the death penalty.

    Period.

    I think it's a sad day for all of us, and says more about us, and what we think is right, than we probably ought to be comfortable- and certainly more than our little rationalisations do.

    If killing is wrong, don't kill.

    How hard is that?
    • Letting people get away with doing bad things -- the WORST things -- without being punished -- punished in the WORST way -- is wronger.

      Period.

      Removing a tumor from humanity that does nothing but suck positive things from us is NOT wrong. It is necessary. If you don't kill the cancer, it takes over. And THAT is a waste of life.

      ....Bethanie....
      • Letting people get away with doing bad things -- the WORST things -- without being punished -- punished in the WORST way -- is wronger.

        Period.

        1. I am kind of scared of you now. 2. Death is hardly the worst punishment, technically there are a lot of things that we can do to a person that would make them wish they were dead.

        • 1. Yes, my dear. Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. :-)

          2. You are absolutely right! There are worse punishments than death, and ways to make people *wish* they were dead -- but imposing those upon criminals, unfortunately, is not really a politically viable option.

          I guess it's scary that I feel this way. But I'm angry. And I'm angry because I'm afraid. I'm afraid because fucks like this Tookie shitbag have made the world a more dangerous place for me and my children to live in -- and he was personally responsib
          • This is obviously a touchy subject for a lot of people. And if you don't want answer this, that's fine. I'm really not trying to bait you, I am just trying to understand your level of fear and anger if that's where you are coming from. You say that torturing someone is not really a politically viable option, but do you think this is what he deserves? Would a lifetime of pain and suffering be more fitting than death?

            From the information I have, I believe that Williams is a murderer, but I think that there

            • Yes, I think that making him wish he were dead would be a good thing. Not merciful, not "right" -- but I think it would be the appropriate consequence for his actions.

              Just because you can't manage to catch and convict every criminal doesn't mean that those who ARE caught shouldn't be punished to the fullest extent possible.

              Actions have consequences. When natural consequences don't happen of their own accord, then consequences must be imposed. No, it's not fun, it's not enjoyable -- it's fuckin' HARD wor
              • so, rehabilitation is worthless, and death is the only possibility?

                So... we really don't care about whether killing is wrong, only about whether it's us or them doing the killing?

                So... you're scared that they'll kill again, and that justifies you taking lives?

                And killing is really only about vengeance, but somehow you don't deserve to be killed in turn? Because, oh wait, because they're BAD, and that means that you're allowed to give up on them, that you don't have to value their life. You stop loving becau
                • I'll consider rehabilitation as a viable alternative when we've perfected revivification.

                  It's not about who's doing the killing -- because he already DID the killing. FOUR times over. That means he forfeited his right to live. He didn't value life. He made a decision & committed an action based on his values (or lack thereof). That action has consequences, and whether or not he suddenly becomes *sorry* about the action he committed does NOT give him a reprieve from suffering the consequences.

                  No one

      • Letting people get away with doing bad things -- the WORST things -- without being punished -- punished in the WORST way -- is wronger.

        So punishment is good in itself? What if the death penalty makes murder more likely (for example)? Death for death has created needless cycles of revenge in many cultures, and although having a central administrator of punishment avoids endless tit-for-tat, the death penalty certainly gives the message that killing is morally acceptable in some circumstances (outside w

  • Killing a person for killing a person (or in this case killing AT LEAST 4 people (in a racially motivated murder by the FUCKING way)) is a perfectly cromulent way to deal with a person who has become useless. Utterly and completely useless. Not unlike the concept of the outlaw. A person OUTSIDE the law a person who can be killed with no repercussions to the killer. This useless piece of human waste has no purpose on this Earth. Killing him embiggens the least of us. He has no right, no reason, no purp
    • ALL CAPS doesn't make you any more RIGHT. Well, I should say, CORRECT. I think it does actually make you more right...

      See, my dear friend, my concern is not for Tookie. I don't know Tookie. I might like him, I might not, I really don't know. My concern is for me. I don't think I'm any better off if he's dead. I think I am better off in a world that draws the line at killing, so I advocate for it. Whether or not there's a "use" for Tookie is not a concern of mine.

      I have fantasies of beating people wi

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