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Geeks in Rolling Stone 153

Posted by CmdrTaco from the stuff-to-read dept.
The latest issue of Rolling Stone Magazine has an article on geeks written by our own Jon Katz. Jon has never pretended to be a geek, but his subjects, Jesse & Eric, definitely are. They both list Slashdot in their bookmarks and, well just read the article. I think a lot of us will find something in this article worth reading. Its for a mainstream audience, but I think its pretty fair.
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Geeks in Rolling Stone More

Geeks in Rolling Stone

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  • They're not geeks, they're losers! (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I'm just tired of seeing losers like this setting a bad name for the rest of us 'geeks' that do fit in in society.

    I was popular in high school. I was at the top of my class. I founded a computer club. I was a geek.

    I went to college and paid my way working part time as a sys admin. I went to parties. I worked summers at the park so I could get outside. I majored in CS and joined ACM. I was a geek. I had girl friends. I talked to people.

    Being a loser who shuts himself inside and can't deal with society is just a geek loser.

  • What it takes to make 6 figures (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The reality of the IT world is that years of experience don't count for squat beyond a certain point. Anyone with three years of experience is now a "senior engineer." The way to make the bucks is to go I*N*D*E*P*E*N*D*E*N*T and then you have to talk the talk (and only sometimes walk the walk).

    Learning to market yourself effectively will get you past that $100k/yr easily. I should know, I went independant two years ago and now I'm billing $135/hr and grossing over $250k/yr - and I am just a unix dude with exposure to admin, kernel, and application development but I was in the right place at the right time and was able to say the right words, so now I'm rolling in the dough (and it all goes straight to the bank, I still drive my 94 sentra).

    PS, even before I went independent, that boutique quant trading house on wallstreet, where Christos Zoulas used to work, damn can't remember their name, offered me $120k/yr as a salaried employee to do fancy-dancy admin work. So, for NYC I'd think $70k/yr is really low for a good sysadmin.

  • I wonder where to begin (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I don't know. How to even begin. My spiritual soul mates as it was. Everything bad and evil about myself just probably said in everything about their lives. Unlike them, I grew up before Internet Access was so widely available, and I had to resort to theft of services from college campuses to get it. Oh, many were the fake ID's I crafted to get onto college computer labs, simply to telnet. Or, to mud.

    Just read this made me cry, not just for what their lives were like, but because of how bad mine is. I resent everyone who insulted them. I guess never having lived in a shithole of a life, you entitled to be judgmental, but it's so unfair.

    Girls? *laughs* Women cross the street to avoid seeing me, people pass me on the bus, and on the subway. If I leave a seat empty next to me a on a crowded subway, no one under 40 will sit in it. I've been called a murderer, a sicko, or a pervert waiting to happen. I suppose in twenty years I'll resort to abusing women, or eating stray animals. Maybe panhandling, or something.

    Technically? I made the mistake of thinking that technical skills meant something, when they really don't. I have the emotional intelligence of a brick. Regarldess of how smart I'd like to think I a it's all meaningless and a total crock of shit. My nights are spent alone, sitting in solitary pursuit of games, MP3, pornography, or warez, all in an attempt to fill the hole in my soul. Long ago I discovered that they'll never make me complete, but I do it anyway, because it's all I know how to do.

    By the way, if I didn't scare you off yet. If there's a woman out there, who's reading this. Prove to me, that I'm not a total waste of skin. I've been convincing myself that I'm worth something, but somehow, reading an article like this proves that I'm not.

    Anonymous_Loser@yahoo.com
  • Perception is everything. If the article is written through the eyes of Jesse and Eric, and Jesse and Eric see Idaho as a wasteland, so it goes. That's not Jon's fault.


    ...phil
  • Yes. When you see the words "Jon Katz", move on.


    ...phil
  • Posted by DiegoGuy:

    I was talking on the phone for awhile, and had to take a break from reading it, that's why I put 2 hours...

    No, I don't need Hooked on Phonics. :)

    p.s. - Amazing what AC's will say just for the fact that they're anonymous...
  • Posted by Nick Carraway:

    I am eternally amazed at how inflated salaries become when quoted in articles of this ilk. Very, very few salaried engineers (approximately 5% according to the last EETimes survey) make more than $100K, and most of those are in the ASIC or embedded software design areas. Some of your best web designers may exceed $100K, but they're probably unusually talented. I'm glad that the two kids in this article are doing allright, but I'm also a little worried that others like them might foresake a CS or EE degree for a high-paying job right out of high school. I know it's not in vogue to say you need a degree these days, but believe it or not, you're better off taking some classes and interacting with your fellow students than sitting by yourself in the glow of a CRT. These kids are making more than I did while co-oping for my degree, so they are definitely doing well. Best of luck to them...
  • Posted by LarkMan:

    Living in a small (under 35K people) town, lucky that I even have 56K (more like 45333) dialin access, making a lowly $34K/year, could all constitute having a pathetic existence. I do however know how to cook (not just nuke stuff), interact in public (both professionally and personally), actually buy software and music, and ...gasp... even go out on the occasional date.

    Katz could not have two more cliche-ish geeks, could he?? I was somewhat offended. Granted there are a lot of geeks like them out there. There are, however, a lot like me, as well.

    Moreover, I really have to wonder how these guys would do in a situation where it actually means that they are going to have to interact with people (lusers). They are more symptomatic of overall large problem in the IT field. Companies pay lots of money for IT people, and get employees whose "people skills are retarded" (actual quote from a CIO-type). Notice Katz didn't get info on how these guys do at work. That would be interesting.

    Don't get me wrong - I wish the guys well and success in whatever they endeavour. My sincere hope is they find something real eventually. Actual reality can be fun, as well. Helps me deal those lusers....

    -dan
  • Posted by Fleeno:

    That's exactly what I meant by my post, which was attacked. I don't want to call myself a geek if people think a geek is a common criminal.
  • "any code of conduct whatsoever"? Your inability to imagine any code of conduct besides current law is an extraordinary failure of imagination.
    --
  • "First, I still don't believe there's any justification for committing a crime..."

    Wow. Need I list the people, today considered hereoes, whose heroic acts were illegal in the times and countries in which they were committed? Can you really not think of the laws, anywhere in the world, that you would not require people to observe in order to meet your moral standards? I think you would have to have a seriously twisted political philosophy to stand by this assertion.
    --
  • Although Caldwell is a wasteland, I can't say Boise is. We have good skiing only 45 minutes away, and great skiing 2.5 hours away. Whitewater rafting is also 45 minutes close, and I can sit naked in at least a dozen natural hot springs within an hours' drive. 5 minutes from downtown I can't see downtown because I'm in a nature preserve. There's an active underground music scene. I can walk up to Dug Martsch from Built to Spill and have him say Hi to me because we went to high school together. A river runs through the center of town that's still safe to swim, tube, fish in. I work in a web design company with giant clients, and I haven't had to leave any of my friends. The horizon isn't 200 miles away. I can still find used Moog equipment in thrift stores.
    I had an option to move to Chicago (still do), and I wouldn't go there for the world. I can't trust a place where I don't have to look up to see the horizon.
  • Uh, no. Why do you ask?
  • A bit. That is, I come from a small town in what's referred to as the "North East Rust Belt". The town was, and still is, going to hell in a handbasket on greased rails. The folks I hung out with in high school could fit the types briefly outlined in the article, and while I came to geekhood late in life - after grad school - the marginalism of the two fellas did ring true, and close to home. There was a time when I was working in a bicycle factory, wasting my life, etc. If I didn't get turned on to literature in my last semester of hs by a real geeky English prof, I shudder to think where I'd be right now.
  • I normally don't read jk's essays, but I rather liked this one. Despite the somewhat rattled organization of the piece, the story itself was pretty good. I come from a small town in Upstate New York, and I can relate to the cramped, nowhere, go-to-get-out-of-here feelings expressed by Eric and Jesse. Maybe if jk's submissions to /. were like this, I'd read him more.
  • No - I've never owned a car. Never felt I've needed one and in my current incarnation as a graduate student I can't afford to own one anyway - hence my post querying how one could own a car and still plead poverty. However, as my fieldwork has been in Indonesia and E. Africa, my definition of poverty is possibly at variance with that of some westerners... Nick
  • Not quite sure how you can afford to own a car and still plead poverty...

    Nick

  • Judging from the responses to this article, I must not be a geek. After all, I enjoy living in Idaho, I go outside ocassionally, I don't steal software or music, and I have never used drugs.

    Heck, I am even (gasp) a Mormon.

    On the other hand, my computers are on all of the time, and they certainly do run a wide variety of software (none of it happens to be creating false ID's at the moment, but that is something to look into :).

    I would submit that perhaps a more fitting description is Computer-Nerd. It's the same sort of thing as Jon's 'Geek,' but without all of the the negative social connotations.
  • First, I still don't believe there's any justification for committing a crime, I don't care how poor you are. But these two go beyond that. They are proud that their illegal activities have been extolled in a major magazine. That speaks poorly on them, the magazine, and the author. If I was in a situation like that, where I had to commit crimes on a regular basis just so I could move out, I would be ashamed of myself.

    --
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address
  • It's not just Jon Katz articles post by Rob. It's also articles about gaming on Linux, for example. I filter out Linux articles, but I don't filter out articles on games. What's happens? Most of the gaming articles are about Linux games!!!! Argh!!!

    --
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address
  • I wholeheartedly agree. In fact, I think it would be better in general to filter articles by author rather than by poster. That way we can all attend to what we like and avoid conversations like this one.
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product
  • yet another great article from Jon. i was suprised that the two people in the article got good jobs, as they just started playing with linux and didnt really know how to program, as the article led me to believe. but its great they were successful in getting good jobs and making good money.
    --
    Scott Miga
  • In one of Rob's stealth-Katz postings - "Katz v Taco: Futurama" - Katz writes: "This time, the target is us - nerds, geeks, the power of computing, the sci-fi culture and the insanely-hyped Millenium."

    Maybe Rob meant to write that no-one other than Katz would claim him to be geek. :-)

    Regards, Ralph.
  • I thought this article was a very good read. Many people have lives like this and many don't realize how common it is. I really think that Katz has written some good articles and I look forward to his future work.
  • No! Don't write about yourself. It's the lack of Katz-isms and a storyline that doesn't revolve centrally around Katz that made this piece good. I don't give a flying fuck about Katz's "nerd discovery," his first online frag, or anything else in his life. You're right though, Katz did hit gold writing about other people. *Other*. Key word there.
  • I mean, let's face it, a good fraction of IT professionals make 6 figures

    Dunno bout that, it depends on your years of experience. In NYC, a fully-featured *ix admin of 3-5 years experience will fetch ~$70k. Don't forget, though, that NY, LA, SF, etc will have higher costs-of-living across the board (phones, insurance, utils, food, etc) which eat up a large amount of that.

    so it just doesnt make sense to keep shopping at Kmart and trying to NOT fit in around the office

    Heh. I can't even shop at K-Mart.. I wear (US sizes) a 58 long (that's XXXLT in t-shirt speak), size 20 collar, 47" waist, a 15 shoe, XXL gloves, and a hat of 8.5.. I typically order my shirts and shorts at landsend.com (they actually stock 100% cotton garments in 3XLT! Joy!), and buy dockers or jeans at a couple of local joints.

    You don't know the fun of walking from one end of 8th street in the Village to the other, going into each shoeshop, and not being able to find a single pair of shoes. And I haven't worn a properly-fitting hat since age 14 (those 'one size fits all' baseball caps look like yarmulkes with sun visors)...

  • The reality of the IT world is that years of experience don't count for squat beyond a certain point. Anyone with three years of experience is now a "senior engineer." The way to make the bucks is to go I*N*D*E*P*E*N*D*E*N*T and then you have to talk the talk (and only sometimes walk the walk).

    I've met (and cleaned up after) enough of these folks to know I could do it, if it werent for these damn scruples.. ;)

    Learning to market yourself effectively will get you past that $100k/yr easily. I should know, I went independant two years ago and now I'm billing $135/hr and grossing over $250k/yr - and I am just a unix dude with exposure to admin, kernel, and application development but I was in the right place at the right time and was able to say the right words, so now I'm rolling in the dough (and it all goes straight to the bank, I still drive my 94 sentra).

    Fair enough. I've been a Perl hacker for about 7 years, but I tend to have too little patience to sit and debug memory leaks and pointer junk to make a living off it, though I can usually tickle bitchy code enough to get it to compile on various systems (AIX, HPUX, Solaris, Linux, DEC/OSF) as long as support for what the author looked like she wanted to do was there.. btw: seriously, look into buying a condo or house. You're getting raped anally by FedGov and NyGov if you aren't deducting mortgage interest, but then again you consult so you probably deduct toilet paper.. ;)

    PS, even before I went independent, that boutique quant trading house on wallstreet, where Christos Zoulas used to work, damn can't remember their name, offered me $120k/yr as a salaried employee to do fancy-dancy admin work. So, for NYC I'd think $70k/yr is really low for a good sysadmin

    Yah, but that would mean working for a bank again, and wearing a tie, and dealing with all the concomitant bullshit of an organization that relies on discipline to mitigate the stupidity of their workforce. My job might be (relatively) low-paid, but I actually work with smart people and I have some pretty neat perks (like about 200 IP addrs on a 10mbps frac-T3 to play with, my U10/333 + 24" 1920x1200 monitor, maytag-repairman work load (thanks to Solaris and Linux), shorts and t-shirt, sexy chicks to ogle, etc). I can double my pay by quadrupling my stress: what kind of return is that? I could have probably broken into 6 figures if I took that job at Deutsche Bank, but the place looked like a fucking meat grinder, and I had just had a year of Y2k at HSBC.. I had _no_ intention of trying that again..

    I see where you're coming from, and I envy you your freedom, but I don't envy you your risk. For me, it's not quite all about the benjamins, but I admit I might be bitchier if I couldn't afford my 99 Grand Cherokee Limited.. (That's black with tan leather.. I call it Megaweapon.. ;)

    I'll be at UBCon this weekend, probably playing Illuminati and checking out the dealer's room, and hoping they've brought back the swordsmiths.. ;)

  • I for one am sick and tired of hearing these articles on the internet culture. The internet is just a means for like-minded people to talk to one another

    Is it me, or did you just contradict yourself? When referring to culture (or subculture), you're basically referring to a community, with a set of mores, roles, memes, etc shared among its members. It is possible to use the internet simply as an informational/communications tool, if that's the level of depth you desire. But you shouldn't belittle or underestimate something you choose to not participate or believe in.

    MUDs, mailing lists, Usenet, Slashdot, these are examples of the communities which the internet enables, and can each be considered subcultures within the overriding culture which rests atop the Application layer.. And unless you're a total misanthrope, the value of the internet lies not in the hardware, software, wires and switches which make up its infrastructure, but rather the data that rides on it.

    If it wasn't for this data (which can be musical, cultural, graphical, etc), and yes, the lusers that generate it, I would be out of a job, so please forgive me if I sound a mite defensive.. ;)
  • If you were in Silicon Valley, you'd be making roughly $40k

  • One poster proclaims the subjects of Mr Katz's article to be "the white trash of the computer world".


    That was timur, who is becoming famous on /. for being, well, a complete and utter asshole. His sig says it all - he comes to a predominately linux oriented site and then includes a sig insulting to anyone who uses linux. What a prick. Talk about lack of social skills.


    Otherwise, yeah, I was reminded very much of myself when reading this. I too came from a lower middle class background, scraped by on practically nothing to get through college (and I had to join the army too). Although my background was liberal arts, I didn't get into computers 'til late - I was 26 (33 now).


    These guys are unpolished gems, works in progress. I sincerely hope they go to college; I for one was sorry that they entered the horrible 9 - 5 crap shithole world so quickly. I delayed it as much as was humanly possible.


    Go to school guys, you won't regret it!!

  • That's not my definition of a social life, it's my definition of a LACK of a social life.

    Speaking of lack of social skills: you come to a predominately linux oriented site, then attach a sig which is highly insulting to linux users ... um, you are the one with no social skills. What surprises me is that you haven't been flamed enough to remove it yet.

    Probably you were the passionless, goody-goody type in high school who did everything your parents told you and didn't question anything, studied hard and made straight A's. Probably you are bland and uninteresting, and your insulting post, which shows nothing but bile and insensitivity, underscores both your lack of social skills and your ponderous vapidity.

    Say what you want, but from all accounts so far, I think I'd rather get to know them than you.

  • Oh, I dunno, Timur. I remember a buncha years ago when I was a college dropout so green and desperate for work that I took a technical writing job at $14K/yr. And I wasn't the most urbane or perfectly-adjusted guy you were likely to meet, either.

    They're nineteen. Give 'em a break; there's still a lot of living for them to do while they get used to being adults. I'm 37, and your brashness makes me wonder if you're closer to my age or theirs.

    These two guys aren't perfect by a long shot, but you can't deny they've shown some guts, tenacity, and initiative.

    After reading how you picked apart the article to tear them down, I wonder who real loser is. It's neither of them.
  • Congratulations on making a life for yourself in this area. I too live in the Chicago/IL area, and I hate it.... I been thinking it is the grass is greener syndrome, but now I am unshure. Perhaps I'll feel better once I get some of my writings on it out, but right now I just feel bogged down and trapped, like a tremendous weight is laying on top of my coffin, which just happens to be chained shut and underwater. Perhaps if I get a new job, I will perk up, or perhaps I won't, I never seem to know. Well, if ya ever are in the area of Medinah, IL... email me if you wanna find out, and feel like getting a couple ppl together to play Quake, QuakeII, Half-Life and Tribes, shoot me off an email, we are always looking for people to join us. AND social event of the highest geek caliber, well not highest but high for the gaming geek, hit Chicon [gibbed.com] as far as we know, the largest Chicago area Quake tourney / LAN party yet. About 300 people at the Ramada Inn on North Avenue in Glendale Heights..... Well good luck guys, wanna help a fellow geek find a job?
    argh
  • Rolling Stone = paying gig
    Slashdot = Siberian labor rate
    Also articles like this one don't go into print until after they get edited, which may be part of the reason that this article was a lot better than most of the Katz articles that were original to Slashdot
  • Not just that, but they should check out Working Class Whites [virginia.edu]. I came across it when doing some research for a class, and it changed my perceptions on the term "white trash". I used to use it, but now I cringe at it. some of the website is, IMO, scapegoating, but most of it is very justifiable complaining... The term (and others) have been used to denigrate the poor for too long, and I'm making a concerted effort to look on those words like I would any other racist term.

    (Still looking for a job...)
  • For everyone of the numbnuts who continually criticize Jon's articles - why don't you try writing something yourselves instead of just reacting to what other people write.

    This article was pretty good. The sad part is that I can really relate to Jesse's high school experiences (very similar to my own.)

    Here I am at 33 years of age and I am a geek making only $84,000/yr now. Why am I not doing any better financially? Cuz I never learned to smooze and grovel.

    Keep up the good writing, Jon.

  • There is no cookie cutter geek. There is no point getting upset about people who don't fit the idealized desciption of a "hacker". It's pretty funny how hackers are supposedly "non-conformists" when they savage each other over superficial differences in upbringing and personality.

    Everyone's different. That's what makes life interesting.

    P.S. Feynman smoked wacky tobacky in addition to taking the ketamine. He was really into the disassociative thing for awhile...but as far as I know it was part of a phase. All things in moderation, yes?
  • Well, being a geek does not have to mean being obsessive about computers, and vice versa. Had a fellow student in CompSci that is married, plays golf on the weekends, likes to dress nice (wears a suit on the job) and has a number of interests not even remotely connected with technology. He is also one of the better programmers I've ever met.

    On the other hand, someone being obsessively into physics or SciFi or medieval reenactments or whatever can be a prime specimen of geekdom withut ever using a computer.

  • Good article, though definitely Katz. Your stroy sounds a bit familiar, though I started a few years later than Eric and yourself did. I, too, am living in a dull city, with few friends, with slow internet access. Sigh. What's a guy to do? Ah well.
  • Those who use "white trash" as a pejorative should read Jim Goad's
    _Redneck Manifesto_ and be forced to work in the cotton fields wearing blackface.
  • Oh, you live in Memphis? :)

    phil

  • Open mouth, insert foot.

    I like some of Katz's stuff and read every article he posts to slashdot. I still find an occassional news bit on slashdot that I haven't already seen on Yahoo! or News Now, so I continue frequenting this place (despite the recently implemented 'free-in-my-face-auto-scoring-of-Perens-posts').

    This time, I'm gonna try not to make Rob cry... but, sheesh. Jon has never pretended to be a geek?


    give *Rob=clue

  • Maybe Rob meant to write that no-one other than Katz would claim him to be geek. :-)

    Maybe what Rob meant to say was that in this particular article Jon ...

  • Did anyone want to cry "BULLSHIT" when Katz stated

    At best, they can move up to programming, Web development and design, the management of computer networking systems, and easily make $150,000 to $200,000 in almost any big city in the world.

    I understand that there is high demand for good technical people today, but $150-200k is a bit more for programmers/web designers/network managers than I've seen anywhere in the industry. If they are working as independent consultants, there's a chance they could bill that much, but there's also a good chance that their educational background will be called into play. Most of the jobs in our sector I've seen in the $150-200K range have been CIO type positions, where non-MBA types may be, but they are certainly the exception, rather than the rule...


    I wish both Jesse and Eric the best of luck, but hope that they'll take the opportunity they have and grow up a bit... Software theft and Music theft are still theft... With much of music, and in the game industry, lack of sales (due to pirating) does have a direct impact on the creator/developer.
  • The only thing remarkable about this story is
    the fact that it's considered worthy of being told. Hands up anyone reading this who hasn't skulked around in classrooms on their own, worked in shitty jobs, gotten involved with the 'wrong crowd', etc., etc., etc.

    This is life, unless you're a breeder. It may be news to Jon Katz, but it's nothing new to me. And it's hard to see his romanticisation as anything other than patronizing. The fact that the Dreary Duo don't realize this is not to their credit.

    K.
    -


    --
    To the extent that I wear skirts and cheap nylon slips, I've gone native.
  • I agree. I'm a *ga sp* mormon too. Did you detect
    an Anti-Mormon sentiment there or was it just me
    being overly sensitive? However, I do have to
    agree with one poster, most mormons are very clicky.

    I think these guys are 2 low class social-rejects
    who got very lucky. I'm disappointed in your
    article Jon. Though you had more brains than that.
    ******************************************* *
    Superstition is a word the ignorant use to describe their ignorance. -Sifu
  • These kids don't know what poverty is. They had food. They had a place to live. They had jobs and a car, albeit not a very good one. Oh, what a hard life...

    -lx

  • I note with a mixture of pity and amusement some of the resoponses that this article has generated so far. One poster proclaims the subjects of Mr Katz's article to be "the white trash of the computer world". While that might seem very insightful to the poster of that response, I think a statement of that nature is more of an indication of what type of person the poster is. I come from a similar background that the two subjects came from with the notable exceptions being that I come from a big city and have never sold fake ID's. Alter the circumstances with regard two those two things and change some names around and that very well could be me. I too didn't know what it was like to have my parents pay for school. I went to a community college when I had the money and have about 50 credit hours to date. Three years ago I was making $8.00 an hour, managing a bookstore, eating ramen twice a day and basically wondering what I was going to do. Then I met a buddy of mine while attending an army reserve weekend and I was fortunate enough to be able to leverage experience obtained in the military to get a job as an entry level Sysadmin. I made $38000 a year to start. Quite a jump. While I make quite a bit more than that now, I have not forgotten what is was like to eat ramen for three week stretches, just to get by. So yes, you could say that this article struck a cord in me. I just am curious how many others have similar stories. To those who really believe you have to have a degree to get a decent job, bull. You need to be curious, technically competent and willing to work obscene hours...:-) Please don't misunderstand me, I am not decrying education. I just am saying that if you want to go to school, go for the education and to learn...don't be one of those people who just go to get a sheet of paper. When I was in the Army, I met more than one officer who had a commission because of a college degree, but couldn't lead their was out of a paper bag. Since I have been out I have worked with many people who got jobs because of their degree and were thouroughly incompetent. Yes, you can get a job if you have a degree, but will you respect yourself in the morning? ;-) -Just my thoughts Saint
  • Glad you enjoyed yourself. At least pick a better topic or something. Playing off of other people's emotions *isn't* funny. At least I have the courage to not post as a coward.
  • Well now... don't be so harsh on yourself. Although a bad way to meet women, I'd say you have me interested. You are welcome to email me if you'd like.
  • That was a great friggin' article. Let me know when you're ready to move to an even less hip town than Chi that happens to have RoadRunner. :-)

  • This was definitely the best Jon Katz that I have read here yet. The difference was I was able to read the story seamlessly without noticing "Katzisms" throughout - nothing really jarred the stream of thought of the article.

    That being said, I was fairly disturbed by the content of the article, so much so that it's taken me overnight to determine exactly what bothered me:

    • Does anyone else here find it deplorable that the two people from the article think that the Internet is the real world? That it alone can be trusted, even looked to as a father figure (according to Katz, at least)? I'm not blaming them for their viewpoint - either society really let them down in some very basic ways, as was suggested in the article, or perhaps they suffer from a medical condition which is causing this alienation, as suggested by another poster. Either way, I feel profoundly sorry for someone that can only find life and meaning in an artificial world filled with objects and people that may never be exactly what they seem. I'll admit that real life can be very difficult to deal with, but a life spent only in front of a computer avoiding real feelings and interaction seems to be more of an escape from reality than an acceptable substitute.
    • My other reaction after reading the article is that I don't agree with Mr. Katz on the topic of character. Certainly risking everything to start a new life somewhere you've never been is a big step, and I wish Jesse and Eric luck. If they succeed by working hard and persevering in the face of difficulty, they will have demonstrated character. Even failure after making their best attempt will demonstrate character. But their lives up to this point don't demonstrate character, and after reading the article I don't have any impression that they intend to change. I understand that they were poor and marginalized by the society that they lived in, but that doesn't excuse making fake IDs and stealing software and music.

    Real character involves living with honor and sticking to your ideals in the face of hardship. Some posters have pointed out that in some cases the law may be wrong and a person in good conscience may break the law because of their belief that the law is wrong. Standing up for your beliefs in this manner would demonstrate real character, but this isn't the impression I get from the article. They weren't making fake IDs because they had strong beliefs that 19 year olds should be able to drink, they were doing it to make a fast buck. Likewise, they don't appear to have strong beliefs concerning the freedom of software (source or otherwise) or music on the Internet - they just don't pay for these things because it's inconvenient for them. That is not living with honor, and these are not actions that should be held up as examples to the community.

    Before ducking into my flame-shelter, I'll leave you with one point to ponder. I'm not perfect either. I've never faked an ID, but I have copied software that I shouldn't have. It was wrong when I did it, and I'm not going to do it again. Probably no one reading this has lead a blameless life. However, even though you or I are not perfect, we still should stand up for what is right. It isn't right to fake IDs, it isn't right to violate copyright laws for software or music, but it also isn't right for society to marginalize two people who are obviously intelligent but may have problems interacting with other people. Again, I wish Jesse and Eric good luck at their jobs in Chicago, and I hope that they have some more opportunities to discover the wonders of the world outside their apartment.

  • Wow. Generally Katz is pretty good, sometimes better, sometimes not.

    _this_ time --- well, I just thought that article was very well done; really terrific writing + a good story to boot.


    =moJ
    - - - - - -
    Member in Good Standing,

  • Let me get this straight.

    He emails a headhunter. For experience, he lists that he likes to fool around with computers and he works in a computer store in a small hick town. Sight unseen, he gets an interview in Chicago where he installs a hard drive and fields a few questions. Then, BANG, 32K a year plus bene's.

    Hey, I've installed hardware and O/S's, troubleshooted Win9* for my office, even programmed a few Perl scripts and Java apps. No biggie, I thought. What kind of job can I get by just walking off the street?
  • It caught fire FIVE times. Bet you never had a car more than two years old. Have you ever replaced your own brakes? How about spending a weekend _under_ your car, covered in grease and rust in order to past inspection?
  • Let me agree. How about this:

    I'm writing this from my PII450 which is just a small part of an 11 computer network (if you count the four system Beowulf cluster as four computers) connected to a 512K ADSL bridge (tweaked to 1088K outbound) that supports two different domains (fluidlight.com and nospin.org) and a grunch of mailing lists. At my house. And I'm a lightweight.

    I work for a company that makes Linux-based networking products. I'm majoring in Electrical Engineering at Boise State University (not Idaho State...Katz needs to check his facts!)

    Micron Technology is the largest memory maker in the US. Zilog is just down the road. Micron Electronics is number 10. Hewlett Packard's single largest facility is here.

    Don't like tech? Albertson's, Boise-Cascade and Morrison-Knudsen have headquarters here.

    Yeah, maybe Caldwell isn't the hip, high tech scene of a geek's desire, but if Katz's boys cared to drive down the road 30 miles, then his article would have had no meaning.

    As usual, Katz has written an article that manages to show that yet again he can drag those old blinders out of the barn and see just what he wants to see. I hope that the money's good.
  • Hmmm...how many trips to Idaho? If you made any, then you must have been traveling with your eyes closed.

    Let's see...technological wasteland that it is, Idaho is home to:

    Micron Technology (corporate headquarters)
    Micron Electronics (corporate headquarters)
    Zilog (corporate headquarters)
    Extended Systems (corporate headquarters)
    Boise Cascade (corporate headquarters)
    Morrison Knudesen (corporate headquarters)
    Albertson's (corporate headquarters)
    Hewlett Packard (largest single facility the company owns)
    TCI/Primestar
    MCI

    Let's see...ADSL is available. Boise State University offers degrees in Engineering and Computer Science.

    AND...snow and water skiing is 15 miles away. So is the forest. Like the desert? 15 miles the other way. Rivers? One goes through the middle of town...and you can swim in it 'cause it isn't polluted.

    Maybe you couldn't screw up writing about these guys, but, on the other hand, they are screwed up enough that you took the line they gave you...and they reeled in a big one!
  • I have never been to Idaho, but I am sure you people aren't lying. I just think that Katz likes to overwrite. By overwrite I mean like how some actors overact. His writing sounds neat and everything and it sounds like he knows what he is talking about, but if you really listen to what he is saying, there really isn't much there. It's like he could write for an hour about the dog jumping over the fence and you might think you are reading a great story. In reality you just spent an hour reading about a dog jumping over a fence. This story, was really just about two guys that moved to Chicago. I am moving from Naples, Florida, a real wasteland for technology to Seattle, why not right 20 pages on my struggles. I grew on the poor side of St.Paul, moved to Naples, realized Naples sucks and moved to Seattle. End of story, who cares. I don't have anything against Katz or the two characters in his story, I just think that I will be skipping the rest of Katz' posts, he got my twice.
  • I generally ignore all Katz articles,
    but I'm glad this one made it past the filters.
    I think it was insightful, entertaining, and
    well-written.

    Jon caught the inherent feel of what it means to
    be a geek; the sometimes hopeless feelings as well
    as the aspirations and dreams.

    There's a little Jesse and Eric in nearly all of
    us and he did a good job bringing that point home.
  • You've met the wrong kinda women, then. My very non-geek girl fully supports me about what I do with computers, mostly because I try not to talk shop at her while not talking down either. She even thinks my nickname is 'cute'. Just keep looking..
  • I have to agree with some posters here that Katz is getting better. Most of the time I start reading one of his articles and by the time I'm near the end my attention starts fading. Not so with this one. I found it a higly enjoyable story about two guys and their life. There still was some of that superfluous abstract techno philosopy blahthering stuff Jon writes so much, but it was less than usual. I'd say keep up the good work, you're nearly there.

  • You're doubtless doing your tagline as a result of ZD's recent quotes of /. posts. IANAL, but I doubt its legal significance, as quoting someone generally falls under fair use.
  • Otis,

    I feel for you, brother. I'm at the other end of the spectrum - 29" inseam, I'm 5'7" tall. Haven't worn a pair of Dockers off the rack my whole life. Always gotta send 'em to the tailor first.

    In reply to the others about attire, I work at one of the largest Investment Banking firms in the world (not just US), and we're casual here. Not just casual as in "yeah, you're a geek - you're allowed to wear that" but casual as in everyone from Management on down is in jeans and sneakers. Dress up day is Dockers, and I don't think we could have a casual day without violating some Chicago ordinance.

    There's not always a need to dress up to make yourself, or your employer, feel better about you. My employer likes me for my technical, not my social skills.
  • I'd like to say that I think that this is one of the most honest portraits of geeks I have ever seen since so much geek and hacker lore has been idealized to an incredible extent.

    I've noticed on slashdot an internal geek schism developing over the self-definition of what it means to be a geek. In one respect I appreciate that your if your ideals are to be defined, its better to do it yourself than to have somebody else do it for you.

    Some people find the definition of geek as used in this article offensive. They would like to present geeks as suits with a rebelious streak, highly-paid, highly-skilled workers who just happen to be a little offbeat. They would like to push the this stereotype of geekdom into the closet along with those 80's geek movies like wierd science and real genius. They don't like to see geeks portrayed as people who would take drugs ,steal software and have poor houskeeping and social skills.

    Do geeks take drugs?
    some people who would probably be considered geeks that took drugs were:
    Robert Heinlein.
    Paul Erdos.
    Richard Feynman (used ketamine).
    Probably the majority of the homebrew computer club had smoked a joint at one time or another (hey is california).

    Do geeks steak software?
    In stephen levy's book _Hackers_ the fact that Bill Gates objects to people copying and distributing his software is presented as proof positive of how square Bill is.

    Do geeks have poor social skills?
    Probably yes, If they had lives would anyone spend their college years hanging out with the TMRC or or spending days puzzling over the wiring in a PDP.

    I'm not trying to say that geeks *MUST* be unkempt thieves, but there is at least some evidence that some geeks are. The point is, probably the same point that people have been trying to make for years in a much more coherent way, that there is no real geek archetype. The icons of geekdom are are not one-dimensional cardboard cutouts, they are not just stories. They had lives, they did drugs, they left dirty dishes in the sink, they stole software, they made mistakes. The portrait of the geek as a zen monk who worships at the alter of technology is a lie.

    The only thing geeks have in common, and probably should have in common, is a passion for knowlege and understanding, using whatever means they need to get it, be it reverse-engineering MS products, or stealing software to mess with it, or using ketamine as Feynman did. It would be a shame if geeks put all this energy into understanding everything *except* other geeks.

  • I thoroughly enjoyed the article. It was very...I dunno...Shocking to see the less noticed end of the Social Spectrum. Although I'm not as polar to your guys' end, I do find myself in similar situations as yourselves. I have no idea what I'll do once I'm out of school, but the article gave me a bit of knowledge that I'm definatly going to have to work a hell of a lot harder to establish an existance outside the world of ones and zeros.

    Anyhoo, I thought that the article was damn good and I wish the both of you the very best of luck and hope the both of you find some women that treat you well. God knows I can't...(grumble)

    Peace,
    Kagenin
  • What with comments like These two are the white trash of the computer world I had this writer pegged for a snotty ivy-leaguer, but look at its user bio and I see BIOS programmer / OS/2 advocate.

    Reminds me of my last visit to officeplex, all those copies of 0S/2 lying unwanted in the bargain software bins...

  • word (Score:1)

    by jslag ( 21657 )
    [I'd use the AOL tag, but now that it's in the Jargon file it would feel a little funny.]

    All I can add is that sure, the guys in the article are losers... if they're playing the same game as mr. preppy asshole. If having lots and lots of girlfriendz and going to a good school and visiting mom and eating apple pie are the ultimate good, then these guys aren't doing so hot. But life is a little more complicated than that.

    Also interesting to see where the immediate ancestors of this post are coming from: AC talks about how great he is, and Mr. Name says something honest and risky. Chalk another point for the user accounts.
  • because I hate to think about someone sitting and doing it by hand.
  • I really enjoyed the article, and it seems that every Katz article I read gets better. I agree with the earlier post, that Jon writes really well about people.

    Thanks Rob and Jon :)
  • ...but even though I have that stupid Katz person excluded from the articles that I view, I am *STILL* subjected to this idiot's opinion on everything under the sun, because every time he writes his happy little clueless bullshit, people (get this!) LINK to it under their names, thus nullifying my KatzFilter. I protest! PLEASE let me have my KatzFilter! It's all that enables me to enjoy /. on a regular basis. Is there any way I can enjoy this site without being subjected to this moron?????
  • bought the car 3 years earlier for $500, good enough for you? Never assume you know everything.
  • Ever slept in your car for 2 weeks so you can wait till your next paycheck to pay the dorm fees and move in since you spent your last dime on tuition bills? I have. Blow it out your ass, Mr. Suit.
  • I concur. I am typing this from my cubicle, deep in the metal heart of a computer corporation, located in Nampa, Idaho, which is right between Caldwell and Boise. Sure, I may get to smell the delicious smells from the sugar beet factory next door, but I have a T3 line to play on, Fedex can find my house, And I could quit this job tomorrow and be working in IT somewhere else at the end of the week.

    You can be a geek anywhere you want, folks.

    Lotek---

  • Some examples of hackers through the ages:
    • Introverted Geeks
    • Isaac Newton
    • Steven Hawking
    • Extroverted or Charismatic Geeks
    • Richard Feynman
    • John vonNeuman
    • Complex Geeks
    • Thomas Jefferson
    • Alan Turing
    • Nichola Tesla

    Different personalities, but all valuable human beings. The introverted types often have an incredible ability to concentrate on a single task for extended periods of time. There are certain problems that require both technical thinking and good communication skills where extroverted geeks excel.

    In my mind, the geek or "hacker" is one who is not afraid to get his hands dirty and delve into the unknown - somebody with an innate need to know how things work - someone with an innate need to create something new and better - someone who questions authority (but not just for the sake of being anti-establishment). The people who fit this description may come from all walks of life, and might be endowed with a variety of different accessory personality traits.

  • I wish both Jesse and Eric the best of luck, but hope that they'll take the opportunity they have and grow up a bit... Software theft and Music theft are still theft... With much of music, and in the game industry, lack of sales (due to pirating) does have a direct impact on the creator/developer.

    Yes, true. But think back to your teens (assuming you aren't currently a teenager) - how many of us never copied a friend's LP onto a tape, or never copied a friend's software to hack with?

    These guys, with little resources, took their education into their own hands. I think most of what they've done as teenagers can be easily overlooked. Few of us are truely innocent.

  • Any code of conduct whatsoever? Even the labeled "criminals" in the article drew a line between stealing software and stealing other items(thoughts/ideas{digitally reproduced a million times over} vs. physical objects). And if you want to talk about code of conduct, look at the post I responded to, is that the kind of code you are looking for AC?
  • If I was in a situation like that, where I had to commit crimes on a regular basis just so I could move out, I would be ashamed of myself.

    You should be ashamed of YOURself. No, seriously, you're an asshole. You personify one of the major failings of geekdom, and humanity in general, the inability to see the world from another's perspective. Does it bother you that much that someone who doesn't even know anyone in your tax bracket can do the same job as you? That you might have something in common with someone you believe to be "white trash" as you so eloquently put it. Judging from your statements (which seems trendy considered your opinions were based on a Katz article in Rolling Stone) you have never faced many of the toils these guys not only faced, but triumphed over. If I had to pick teams, I'd take them and kick the everlivin' sh*t out of you, jerk-off.

    Moderate away......
  • "Stiff, desertlike wind blows dust across the interstate just outside Caldwell, Idaho, the grinding gears of passing diesel trucks barely drowning out the mournful bellowing of doomed cattle on either side of the road."

    Ok, my turn:

    "Stale, recycled air hangs heavily in the office. The low murmur of conversations and the monotonous clicking of keyboards are the only sounds heard. The defining silence is periodically broken by a ringing phone or the beep of a finished compile job."

    Please don't take this as an insult or criticism, guys. I'm just having a little fun. (BTW -- Can I have a job?) :)
  • I really liked this quote from the website:

    "Treason to whiteness has become a battle cry of devotion to humankind."
  • Posted by DiegoGuy:

    [first 2 paragraphs are my personal life, skip them if you want to get to the computer part of my life]
    I just spent the past 2 hours reading the article and I loved it. It gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling to know that there are others out there like me. While I probably have had less struggles than these two, and I have yet to move across the country and get a job making > $30K/yr, I can relate a lot with their personal lives and struggles through adolescence. I was born in Montana, lived in Nevada for several years, and only within this decade have lived in California (btw, we have Cable Modem access here Jesse and Eric). My father dropped out of high school when he was 15, and my mother graduated from high school, but didn't further her education. Both my mother and father left Los Angeles and San Diego, respectively, and headed for the "wide open skies and fresh air of Montana", as they would say . My father worked on drilling rigs and was sometimes away from my brother, mom, and I for several months at a time. My mom worked in a cafe as a cook after I was born and could be babysat. My brother (step) came to live with us when I was just a baby and he was five.
    Anyway, we moved to Nevada after my mom got a job in the airline industry, and that opened up a whole range of oppurtunities for her, as well as me. It got us out of the rural state of Montana, and into Nevada which had some more oppurtunity. My dad continued to work in the drilling industry, and when I was ~10, my brother left to go live with his real mom. When I was 12, my mom and dad split up, and that kind of devastated me. Then, next year I made a new friend who was into computers, and lived on my street. He showed me Wolfenstein 3d, and the like, and at that time I really liked the gaming aspect of computers.
    A few years later I moved to California, and the $3,000 I had saved my entire life through working (mowing lawns, etc), I spent on a shiny new computer (this was ~December 1995). It had Windows 95 preloaded on it with too much software (sound familiar?), and I thought it was the coolest operating system in the world. Then, we got AOL, and I used that for awhile, but I had been reading the local ComputorEdge magazine in San Diego, and noticed people arguing about having "direct" Internet access. So I managed to get the "WOW!" service that Compuserve was offering because it was somewhat of a direct Internet access option (although it was still proprietary in nature). I got tired of that, and got an account with a local ISP with my 28.8 modem. It was a dream come true - I could finally use all the 32-bit Internet applications such as "The Internet" icon on my desktop (IE 2.0), and Eudora e-mail. I then started using that for a few months, and naturally being a geek I got bored with Windows 95 and wanted to venture into new and more interesting things. (this is ~March 1996). I had still been a straight A student in my high school during this time, but I noticed a lot of my time was being consumed by my overwhelming urge to search for new and interesting things to do with my computer. I discovered the interactive side of the Internet, started browsing newsgroups and online bulletin boards, and used Online Traveler for awhile (saw it on MTV). Then I was talking in one of the virtual world's and someone said something about how you could download free software on this thing called "EFNet". I thought that was kind of convenient, so I tried that out for awhile, and started using all the latest and greatest software on my home computer.

    Now, I would like to defend Jesse & Eric on this subject - downloading commercial software. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it if you are just a geek at home interested in learning new software programs, but I DO see it as wrong to use commercial software in your business where you are making money with it. The businesses are the main generators of revenue for commercial software vendors, not teenagers who use the Internet all day long.

    After awhile, I got bored with all the latest and greatest Windows software, and had heard about another operating system that people on the 'Net had been starting to use quite a lot - Linux. (this is ~May 1996) So I tried Slackware '96 out, and it was somewhat interesting to me, although I felt I was going back in time with the command line (felt a lot like DOS). I hadn't even realized the power of having a UNIX operating system on my PC back then, but I did after a few months of using it. I continued to try out all the latest and most expensive (I thought it was interesting to be using $20,000 software programs like Softimage|3D for free) Windows software on my PC, but I began to get tired of the instability of Windows 95, and moved on to Windows NT Workstation 4.0 when it was released in August of '96. This was after 3 months working my first computer job that summer doing marketing analysis at a plumbing supply company. Anyway, I really liked Windows NT Workstation as a client operating system, and I continue to like it to this day, due to it having the majority of off-the-shelf applications on the market (althought Linux is improving greatly in the client area). I managed to graduate high school after my grades dropped from straight A's to D'c & C's due to my obsessive/compulsive use of the computer, although I did take AP computer science and other computer classes in high school. My year of graduation was 1998 (last June), and I wanted to work around _people_ for once in my life, so I got a complete BS job working at a fast-food place for 3 months until I could afford my own car. I then moved on to a $7 / hr job in a retail store, and worked there for ~ 6 months. All this time after graduating high school and having much free time (due to this being my year to take off before college) I immersed myself into every aspect of computers. I finally bought my own hub and ethernet cards, and got another computer, and setup my own LAN at home with Linux being the server. I got tired of working my retail job, and knew I could do something better with my life, so a friend of someone I know (who is a software engineer) gave me a programming job for his software company. He wooed me, and promised "$20 and hr in just a couple months", and told me about making more than my mom. I started working for awhile, and I loved the work, but I got stressed out to the point where I got sad and lonely, and took a leave from the job for a week, my boss was cool about the whole thing. It was so bad that I had to go to the hospital and get medication. (this is ~1 month ago) Now I come back to the job, and my boss starts giving me a few projects, but I get stressed out again (medication takes ~1 month to kick in) and don't work for a few days. Now I can tell my boss is getting a little annoyed, but he assures me that "the brightest minds in this world always have some personal problems". (this is ~2 weeks ago) Now, he hasn't called or anything, and I am feeling hopeless. My medication is now kicking in and making me a lot more stable, so I am at the point where I can work day in and day out and be productive, but he is not even calling any more. I have ~$900 in the bank, and I almost feel like doing the same exact thing that Jesse and Eric have done.

    So, I am now at home (still living with mom), and 8 months graduated from high school with no prospects in my life as of yet. I have 3 years of intense experience with computers (due to my enourmous amounts of free time), and some experience at my current programming "job". (but my boss doesn't call anymore)

    I don't know what to do now, but I know a few things - I would love to continue working in the computer industry, and hopefully make enough money to get me through a good college. I have great people skills (due to my recent job in the retail store industry), and I have great computer skills (lots of *NIX, lots of Windows NT, Windows 9x, Pascal, some C++ experience in AP computer science mostly, ASP (Microsoft) / VB, etc). What should I do? Should I try my luck driving across the country or up north to Silicon Valley and see if I can make something of myself and get myself through college?

  • Being a loser who shuts himself inside and can't deal with society is just a geek loser.

    Actually it's more like a loser who happens to be a geek. I was going to post something like Timur did but decided against being so harsh.
  • Having lived inside and outside the Idaho/Utah system I can say the politics in that area are as detrimental as they are beneficial to people like Jesse and Eric. On the one hand, you don't have to worry about locking your doors. You can go outside at night. The women are easy to fall in love with.

    On the other hand it's a very very clickish area of the country. You're either a NonMember or a (cough) member and even the most brilliant people can end up swapping cards for the rest of their lives if they don't play the game.

    Would geeks like that have become the next Steve Jobs if they lived in, say, Los Angeles or would Linus have ended up an unemployed bum if he grew up in Idaho?

    I wouldn't believe the line about unlimited jobs. Like anything you read in Rolling Stone, Jesse and Eric were extremely lucky. For every Jesse and Eric there are a thousand equally skilled geeks taking the same chance, ending up on the street, and definitely not appearing in Rolling Stone.
  • I have no problems with Katz, in fact I like reading his articles, but please don't say he's never claimed to be a geek. He's claimed to be a geek regularly. Although he admits to not being a computer expert, his definition of geek includes himself.
  • You need to get Jon to post stuff like this article HERE!

    This is good stuff, the best of what I like from Jon, no pretension, no nonsense, just clear personable writing.

    From now on Jon, WRITE ABOUT PEOPLE. Write about yourself, write about geeks, write about non-geeks suffering/learning tech. Don't write about technology directly EVER AGAIN. Point it at people and you become 2 - 4 TIMES the engaging writer.

    Thanks, BTW.

    P.S. I wasn't sure they were real geeks until they hit the first few posts on /. (and aren't AC!)
    --
  • Giving users the choice to filter content is a really great feature. I think that Rob has done a great job with the moderation and all the neat functions here on Slashdot. But I see a small problem. I have my prefs set to block Katz articles. This is the choice that I made. I do this because I don't want to read Jon Katz articles. If Rob posts Katz articles, such as this one or one of the movie reviews, it makes it past my filter. This defeats the purpose of a filter. I can always just skip right along as soon as I see Katz's name, which is what I do, but this just puts all of Rob's work to waste. Right now this is not a big problem at all but as Slashdot grows, more people will want to filter certain authors and will be unable to, do to this "stealth posting" technique. This is a fairly minor gripe but it does irk me. Can we fix it?

    I think this is on topic for this article because THIS ARTICLE is the subject.


    Thanks for all your hard work Rob.

    Joe
  • Give me a freakin' break! These two are the white trash of the computer world (and probably other worlds, too). First off, I sure hope they aren't using their real names, because they have admitted in publich to commiting numerous crimes, including forgery and piracy. I hope they get arrested. The average person is going to read this article and think that all geeks are like this.

    Let me pick some juicy quotations:

    "The Internet has guided and shaped much of their lives -- how they think, what they do, what kind of future they will have. It is the only thing in the world they trust."

    That's really scary, because the Internet is not something I trust at all. If anything, the Internet is the one thing you CAN'T trust, because you have no idea who it is you're talking to at any point. And unless you use encryption on everything, people can monitor what you're doing.

    "'For me, the Net isn't a substitute for life,' he says. 'It is life.' Jesse likes to say that the life he and Eric live is the real Real World."

    That's pathetic. I don't think I need to comment on this - the words speak for themselves.

    Referring to someone whose parents paid for his education: "Jesse shakes his head. 'I'll have been working for five or six years when he gets out.'

    And that's supposed to mean what? That a nobody from some hick town with 5 years experience selling fake ID's is supposed to have an advantage over someone who's been studying for 4 years to get a college degree?!?!? HAHAHAHA!!!!

    "'Can't say I've paid for any of them. Or for any game or piece of software I've ever used, either.'"

    Just lovely - this article glamorizes theft. Somehow, we're supposed to feel sorry for this guy and let him steal software and music?

    "Jesse has a thriving social life, but not in the sense that most people traditionally use the term. It exists almost totally in his head"

    That's not my definition of a social life, it's my definition of a LACK of a social life.

    "His friendships are characterized by a stream of gifts - games, music, software. It would never occur to him to tell a friend that he was happy or sad."

    Again, this is not a definition of friends, it's a definition of lack of friends. True friends care about your feelings. These people obviously don't.

    "A week or two ago, he went hiking along the Boise River on a bright day and landed in the hospital emergency room with second-degree burns on his legs."

    All that time on the Internet, and he doesn't even know what sunscreen is for.

    "but engaging in a conversation that he does not control tires him out"

    Oh yeah, great social skills indeed.

    There's more, but I think I've made my point. Granted, I feel sorry about their dysfunctional families. Obviously, that makes their situation more bleak, and they've been scarred by it. But glamorizing them like this is a crime, IMHO.

    --
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address

  • Thanks for the amazing amount of e-mail. Between /. and RS readers, it might take me longer than usual, but I will answer it. This is the best response to anything I've ever written, and I'm proud it's up here.
    I doubt I could ever really convey how much I admire Jesse and Eric, or even convey enough what they went through to get from there to here. They're heroes of mine.
    Thanks for the great messages. Thanks also to those of you who write and said you think my writing here is improving. I have a ways to go, but I like to think that's true. If it is improving, it's because of all the educating you're giving me. I'm listening too -- shorter, clearer, smarter. Easier said than done, but I'm trying and will keep trying. I wish I could write more pieces like this.
    Rolling Stone is one of the few places where you can..and this one took six months, and a number of trips to Idaho and the Midwest. But I'm eager to finish this book, and grateful for all the nice words. Even I couldn't screw up writing about these guys too much.
  • Thanks for the amazing amount of e-mail. Between /. and RS readers, it might take me longer than usual, but I will answer it. This is the best response to anything I've ever written, and I'm proud it's up here.
    I doubt I could ever really convey how much I admire Jesse and Eric, or even convey enough what they went through to get from there to here. They're heroes of mine.
    Thanks for the great messages. Thanks also to those of you who write and said you think my writing here is improving. I have a ways to go, but I like to think that's true. If it is improving, it's because of all the educating you're giving me. I'm listening too -- shorter, clearer, smarter. Easier said than done, but I'm trying and will keep trying. I wish I could write more pieces like this.
    Rolling Stone is one of the few places where you can..and this one took six months, and a number of trips to Idaho and the Midwest. But I'm eager to finish this book, and grateful for all the nice words. Even I couldn't screw up writing about these guys too much.
    P.S. Jesse and Eric are doing Quake 3.
  • Sorry, gang, but this part of Idaho is not quite the high-tech wasteland that is portrayed in the article. I live (and work) in Boise, which is 15 or so miles from Caldwell. There are high tech firms running the gamut from small, 50-person software shops (where I used to work) to huge multinational high-tech firms that have been around for 50+ years (where I currently work) here. Not to mention other large coroprations, such as Albertson's and Boise-Cascade, that have huge IT departments that need people. Add to that the fact that BSU has one damn fine CS program. The result? Boise is one happenin' high-tech town (of course, US West needs to get of its ass and get more complete DSL coverage, but that's another story).

  • This is really what people on Slashdot are like? That's pretty disappointing. I can't see why it is that Katz thought these 2 were fit to write about. I understand what its like to not have much money, and I can relate to their lives growing up. However, they need to grow the hell up. Is no one else offended by the fact that the bulk of their existence is involved with criminal activity?

    I can't believe they have the nerve to talk about character. If they think somehow they automatically have character because they've had a rough life, they have no clue what character is. Stealing software, music, making fake IDs, those activities don't do much to indicate any character at all. All that is ok, of course, because they didn't have a priveleged upbringing. The world owes them, and they shouldn't have to pay for things like everyone else.

    By choice, they have no friends, no social skills, and feel such pity for themselves as to compare the internet to heroin. That's bullshit. There's nothing addictive about the internet. If you choose to sit around all day on-line in chat rooms and think that somehow makes you smarter than people who watch tv all day, you've got problems.

    What scares me even more is that there are people like this actually entering the job force. This is not who I want to see working for a consulting firm. A couple of elitist punks who have no social skills, no morals, and a completely warped view of the world.

    It makes me sick that John Katz somehow thinks this kind of lifestyle is worthy of glamourizing. If this is the kind of people geeks are, I guess I was mistaken in thinking I was a geek.

    -lx
  • I note with a mixture of pity and amusement some of the resoponses that this article has generated so far. One poster proclaims the subjects of Mr Katz's article to be "the white trash of the computer world". While that might seem very insightful to the poster of that response, I think a statement of that nature is more of an indication of what type of person the poster is. I come from a similar background that the two subjects came from with the notable exceptions being that I come from a big city and have never sold fake ID's. Alter the circumstances with regard two those two things and change some names around and that very well could be me. I too didn't know what it was like to have my parents pay for school. I went to a community college when I had the money and have about 50 credit hours to date. Three years ago I was makeing $8.00 an hour, managing a bookstore, eating ramen twice a day and basically wondering what I was going to do. Then I met a buddy of mine while attending an army reserve weekend and I was fortunate enough to be able to leverage experience obtained in the military to get a job as an entry level Sysadmin. I made $38000 a year to start. Quite a jump. While I make quite a bit more than that now, I have not forgotten what is was like to eat ramen for three week stretches, just to get by. So yes, you could say that this article struck a cord in me. I just am curious how many others have similar stories. To those who really believe you have to have a degree to get a decent job, bull. You need to be curious, technically competent and willing to work obscene hours...:-) Please don't misunderstand me, I am not decrying education. I just am saying that if you want to go to school, go for the education and to learn...don't be one of those people who just go to get a sheet of paper. When I was in the Army, I met more than one officer who had a commission because of a college degree, but couldn't lead their was out of a paper bag. Since I have been out I have worked with many people who got jobs because of their degree and were thouroughly incompetent. Yes, you can get a job if you have a degree, but will you respect yourself in the morning? ;-) -Just my thoughts Saint
  • Way to go, Jesse, Eric and Jon.

    Some may remember the RS article a few years back about Cyborganic. Now, I love the folks who did that dearly (and I was even at a Thursday Night Dinner or two before it all kind of dwindled away), but this gets much more to the reality of what's happening because of the Net and the kinds of social changes in our society it's making.

    There's a real story about real people here. Jesse and Eric's story is very familiar; I love living in Portland, Oregon but I moved here by choice as an adult. Growing up here, especially in the inner suburbs, you see a lot of what Caldwell is like, the outcome of 50 years of development ruled by TV, cars, minimalls and crappy construction. The Net may not change all that but at least it offers a new trajectory for those who don't want to be hemmed in.

    The high school kids I've talked with in Portland all say how dull it is here. They can't wait to graduate and get away, whether it's to college or not. Then a few years later a lot of them come back, because even the drearier areas of the Northwest offer more real sense of community than the urban east.

    The point is that the net offers an opportunity to do things and go places because of who you are, not where you are. That's a big, big thing. And it's not just a big thing for geeks, although the net "takes care of its own" first and foremost :)


    As for those comments from AC whiners here, Jon, Jesse and Eric, heed the words of the Ancient Net.Godz:

    Ne illegitimi carborundum.

    -------
  • The mouse button and the D key are your friends.
    Never forget this.

    If there's one thing more annoying about /. than weak jonkatz articles (of which there have been only a few, given the total sum of his input here), it is the tired whining about them.

    I'm only saying this once because meta-whining is even more boring.

    --------
  • well, here goes, .. my $0.02. "Character is a trophy you take away from trouble". yes, I believe that 100% but financial trouble is just one of many types of 'trouble'. I really don't see how being paid through college and "not even having a job" qualifies someone as being deficient. you don't get to pick your family. Character is something forged when you're put under pressure, usually moral pressure. "oh look that guy next to me knows the answer. hmm I can almost see his exam sheet." "well I *deserve* that money. should I just take it?" see my point? someone who doesn't have financial advantage proves their character (either good or bad) the same way.

    My office mate (I'm in graduate school at Duke University) put himself through college 100%, co-oping at IBM, and I must say, you can tell. There is a certain confidence built through hard work.

    a word to the wise - get out as much as you can. being a geek means being technically efficient and knowledgable, and DOESN'T mean being a hermit! I am proud to be one, all-night coding, kernel compiling, hacking, you name it, I'm there. but what fun is it if you don't have people that you can bounce ideas off, talk shop with, and just plain converse with? Just because you know the intimate details of the Linux TCP/IP stack or some such soup of detail, does not mean you have to be socially inept.

    ------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------
    practice makes perfect; and not just at debugging, that goes for social skills too.
  • I come from a similar enough situation that I sympathize with them. Granted I don't think hanging about on the computer is a social life, but not everybody is able/willing to deal with the norms.

    I'm making my own way through college, I'm managing it on loans and working 20-30 hours a week. And I DO think that it's built a lot of character, enough to almost drive me mad a time or two. I've never made fake ID's but I know I thought about it, I especially thought about making a bathtub-load of LSD to finance college. And it wasn't because I'm especially inclined to criminal activity, it's because I was desperate.


    It's really easy to sit on your moral high horse and say 'No one should ever commit those crimes!' when you have three square, college paid for, and your parents to fall back on if things go to hell. Did they go out and mug people? No, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying you're damn quick to judge.

    When your in your own particular circle of hell you'll do damn near anything to get out. See what you do when you land in a bad corner with your back against the wall.
  • In reading over the Rolling Stone article I was amazed at how superficial it was.

    My personal background is from a small town in Illinois where I spent my time in high school being picked on by the jocks and what have you, plus all the esoteric intellectual stuff. The point here is that I am what I would consider (and most of the popular people in high school) to be a geek.

    The portrayal of Jesse and Eric, although reflecting how some of the people out there will live, is only a small minority of people, even in the geek realm. My take on things is that most of the people that build their own computers and spend time online are not like what is depicted in this article. They are mostly just people like other people. They have problems and they desires like other people.

    Using the internet does not give you any special powers or status. The internet is just a collection of information and a way to communicate. In essence it does not greatly differ from reading books or talking on the phone. Ideas and knowledge. This whole "subculture" thing is overdone.

    I for one am sick and tired of hearing these articles on the internet culture. The internet is just a means for like-minded people to talk to one another.

    Don't get me wrong, it is a great tool that can help provide opportunities to those that might not otherwise get them, like Eric and Jesse, but using the internet does not effect who a person is. These people would exist without the internet and have similar lifestyles. Its just the technology that is new.

    I wouldn't be suprised if I get flamed for saying what I've said here, but I don't care. I just wanted a counter-statement to all this "subculture" talk on the internet.

    Take it as you will.

    -Adam

  • You, regrettably, are uninformed... (Score:3)

    by Chris Johnson ( 580 ) on Thursday April 08, 1999 @08:50PM (#1943455) Homepage Journal
    ...or totally intolerant. But then, Katz didn't know what he was looking at, either, so I can't blame you for his inability to explain it to you.

    Apparently Katz wants to have Asperger's syndrome when he grows up.

    I'm serious- just like there was the discovery years ago that there were millions of 'ambulatory schizophrenics' walking the streets, you just got a close-up look at the value system of an Asperger's person. At least one of them is, if not both- they probably don't know it because they've found niches that keep them out of the hospitals and homeless shelters by the skin of their teeth- and it's a real condition, a lifelong one with no cure, a weird other world of radically different values and priorities.

    Have you ever heard the name Temple Grandin? Temple is an autistic woman and possibly the greatest designer of stockyards and livestock handling architecture the world has ever seen. She has always struggled to simply survive the world- but then on the other hand she has what she herself refers to as the 'Sun workstation' in her head, the mysterious savant-like ability to take a set of design problems, turn it over to her unusual and gifted/hobbled brain, and come out with a solution way better than normal humans could hope to find, somewhat like the 'lightning calculator' prodigies. It's a sort of geek Borg-like synthesis- people like the character Data, who can do remarkable feats of computation and even true creativity- but who are helpless at a dinner party without instructions- and who rebel at always having to be given instructions, because they are not _stupid_, just different- in some ways very different.

    Is it any wonder that we retreat to the computer sphere where we can thrive and use our strengths?

    Yeah, I did say 'we' for a reason- I live with Asperger's myself. It's not too much of a problem, though it is a disabling condition in most circumstances. I steer away from social interaction- unless it's with people I have something significant in common with, it wears me out absurdly fast, to the point that I develop physical symptoms of stress. I was ordered by a shrink once to go right away to the emergency room of the hospital. Why? I'd been trying to sort of 'fit in with the mainstream', in particular to get willingness to try your regular sort of people-oriented job (rather than the low-pay but geek-oriented jobs I'm doing now). I was a good boy, right up to the point where the shrink informed me the stomach pains that made me sweat and lie awake at night and guzzle Alka-seltzer over was gastric ulcer recurring on me, and that I could be dead in days if I didn't fix whatever it was that was wrong. Then I stopped being the good boy and considered the idea of just being _me_... and yes, I do have some freaky skills, the sort Jon Katz longs for. In particular, I'm right off the chart in particular types of mental modeling, the specific test being one of a set called GATB, in which you see 2D shapes and answer which, of a set of 3D shapes, the 2D shape can be deformed to. I obliterated this test, set a ten year high- and it's typically geeky that I also loved it and wanted to keep doing more of the exercises.

    I don't know why I'm going to all this trouble to explain all this. Nobody really cares, least of all me- my life remains the same set of capacities and challenges whether or not you, popular head-of-his-class AC, think I'm a loser or not. In fact, since trying to measure up to your value system damned near literally killed me, I'm pointedly not interested in trading in a life where I can be healthy and accomplish things for a life where I look socially acceptable and 'play well with others' and die in a few years.
    I'm only reacting to this notion that, of the nerds and geeks, the reclusive ones, the ones who can't deal with eating right or hygiene (I'm borderline- having a bad, bad hair day, but not overly rancid, thanks :) ), are loser geeks, and the geeks who run the computer clubs and go to parties and have girlfriends/boyfriends and pursue a healthy active social life are _good_ geeks to be emulated and used as the yardstick.

    This is not only angering, it is unfair, because historically, large numbers of nerds, geeks and other major contributors to 20th century technology- hell, any technology, ever- have been these people you scorn, geeks without social lives, sometimes without friends, but with brains that can do things like hack on code for 30 hours without rest, or mysteriously arrive at revolutionary ways of doing things.

    Sounds like Ubermensch? (btw, you do know who Nietzsche is?) Well, it's more like LOSERmensch, and that changes NOTHING about it. Humans vary, and the geek/nerd is well within the overall spectrum- brings things to society that cannot be simply duplicated by masses of people putting in 9-to-5s and then going off to socialize with their circuits of social obligations- and I for one will not just sit around silently and listen to people who are kind of like me, called losers. I don't see them as losers. I'm as maladjusted as they are- except in my areas of strength, or even savantlike ability.

    If you don't like the 'bad name' set by those you associate with, I'd have to suggest that you better get used to it. There's a very clear correlation between certain types of mental illness (defined as 'ill by the standards of normal society) and hacker skills. It's not just about having more time to practice, either- the extreme hacker archetype is _qualitatively_ different from your normal smart guy. There's a whole spectrum going all the way from Joe Regular Dude (who happens to be a damned good coder) to weird personalities who seem to be telnetting their thinking from the planet Neptune, to RMS (just haha-only-serious). Joe Regular _cannot_ do some of the things RMS has done, and probably can't do what the guy from Neptune can do (though Joe's a hell of a lot easier to cope with).
    This is not the sociological version of rocket science. This is _obvious_ to anybody who's made the slightest effort to do the research. Anyone asserting that 'shut inside low-hygeine geek losers' are a bad influence that need to be trained to act like humans... is only illustrating their inability to understand the reality of geeks, and the computer subculture, and the human mind itself.

    I could log out to post this but I'm damned if I will. I'm speaking for me, others might identify with some of it or not. Clearly some will not. Not my problem- I just refuse to be blackmailed into some expectation that growth for me involves learning to act more like Joe Average, have outside interests, socialize etc. and not be 'a loser'. I rather think that, having put a lot of work into understanding this, that I'll go on being me, thank you- which will continue to be a 'me' many people would consider rather maladjusted, a 'me' which Jon Katz would appear to be blankly awed by (except I've sassed him too much), a 'me' so depersonalised by the impossible, unattainable expectations of society that for years I didn't even feel human at all- and finally, a 'me' I'm beginning to understand and accept- not on moral grounds but the sheer pragmatism of 'what works'. And being a geek, nerd, perhaps even a hacker in ways, works for me, where nothing else did.

    Whether or not Katz's geeks consider themselves Asperger's people, their worldviews coincide with my own painfully-acquired one well enough that I don't accept your labels for them at all. They are not 'losers'. They're different than you. Deal with it because you can't change them: it's only fair, they've spent all their lives, as I did, not being able to change people like you.

    Flame on: it'll be interesting to see who 'gets it' and who doesn't. Sounds like your mind is already made up, AC.

  • Quoted from the article (Score:3)

    by sammy baby ( 14909 ) on Thursday April 08, 1999 @02:06PM (#1943456) Journal
    Jesse is incredulous when asked whether he pays for music, as if the idea is brand-new to him. For a second, he has no idea how to even explain it. "Um, no," he says. "Can't say I've paid for any of them. Or for any game or piece of software I've ever used, either." The question sparks a long riff: "I mean, I'm not going to pry open a warehouse and steal a TV. I pay for material things - food, clothes. But intellectual content - software, music - you can download on the Net."
    Jon - after a quick read through the article (I haven't have time to give it good read yet), my initial impression is that we - insofar as geeks are in any way a cohesive group - haven't come very far at all. It made me very sad, and I'm not sure I can even articulate why.

  • The Dance of the Flaming Arsehole... (Score:3)

    by JesseD ( 34060 ) on Thursday April 08, 1999 @09:53AM (#1943457)
    This is the above mentioned Jesse. I hope you like or at least accept as mundane reality the piece in Rolling Stone about us. A small caveat, it's not about technology much, so if your eyes glaze over when you read anything but manuals, you're in for a glazing...any comments, complaints, bullshit, comradarie, rib-jabbing, leg-pulling, mail-bombing, or plain unmasked hatred you feel inclined to unleash, do it to daileyj@icsp.net

  • Save me from my boring days at work. (Score:3)

    by twiggy ( 104320 ) on Thursday April 08, 1999 @10:28AM (#1943458) Homepage
    This is Eric from the piece. Hope you like the story, or at least the photographs by Ethan Hill. My e-mail's not in the piece, so here it is. twilegar@icsp.net. The only thing I wish is that Britney Spears was on the cover again :)

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