Here's my take on it.

"Outside" the universe is undefined in the same way as division by zero and Not A Number are undefined "values".

One could say it "expands" into the nothingness of non-existence however the whole idea of "expansion" and the resulting question of "into what?" is only an attribute of one particular way of describing a reference frame (a particular reference frame that comes naturally to us because we're inside looking outwards).

Let's change the reference frame:
freeze the "border" of the universe all the way from the big bang until today and towards whatever future and treat this "border" as a constant.

What does the changes within this fixed "border" look like?

A "singularity" (bending the word, hope you understand) which internally increases (so far at least) in differentiation and separation of non-nothingness and nothingness, internally.

Somewhat like a fractal like for example a Mandelbrot set, however a fractal which only moves "inwards" and which along the dimension of time changes from a point of even distribution into a point of infinite internal complexity in all dimensions as if it increased in existing complexity at the very same time as you zoom in on it.

Another description would be us looking out at things moving away and instead of thinking of those things as if they were expanding away we instead think of us as falling away from them into increased complexity. Those things are also falling into increased complexity however we're falling faster than those things closer to the "border" of the "singularity" and those things closer to the "center" of the "singularity" are falling faster than us thus giving us the illusion that we're falling faster than both (the distance to both groups increases at an accelerating pace as everything continues to fall faster).

Back to the "universal fractal". Just what would such a fractal look like?

I don't know but I know of a description that seems to catch the gist of it: it's turtles all the way down ^_^

P.S. turtles as opposed to seahorses.

Or instead they're just being stupid, it's not like we've ever been close to running out of stupid :3 (And moderators; no this is not a troll, however it could be said to be a reading comprehension test).

As a counterargument to your reasoned (and reasonable) conclusion I highly recommend experiencing the hivemind workflow as can be found when for example an Anonoymous operation takes off. I had the pleasure to witness that for OperationTunisia and it was amazing, it lived up to the concept of the word hivemind.

I am not saying that Stuxnet was the result of a public freely available hivemind (everyone would already know if it was thus it obviously wasn't), only that there is no reason why it couldn't have been (including the possibility of creating physical rudimentary mock-ups for testing, lots of people all over the world have easy unfettered access to high quality workshops and materials).

Now would the same possibly be achievable with a closed non-public hivemind? Could be.

I will never underestimate the potential of hiveminds again, I hope their implementation expands towards the completeness as described in science fiction. I would most likely permanently join/merge with such a "meta-being" if given the chance.

I wanted to try to give a thorough description but realized I could not do the experience justice. When Operation Tunisia took off it had previously existed for at least about a week with low activity, however in about two hours the following was done:
- several free 12-connections limited PiratePads established for information gathering and press releases
- PiratePads deleted by hostiles and restored from local non-"save point" sources with minimal losses
- adequate data had been collected for the Tunisian network infrastructure with a focus on governmental nodes and assessment of them
- Tunisian governmental technical defensive measures identified and understood
- specific tactical choices discussed
- specific strategical choices made and reinforced
- press releases

Access to the physical hardware is a false assumption.

0. If you run light and dirty then you simply make the deployment the test. Probably wouldn't cost you much more than few free meals and some interesting junk and freebies if it failed (everyone gets their pay from doing "real" stuff anyways).

Ask yourself; how many people would notice Stuxnet if it didn't succeed? Very few if you ask me. How many would have any more solid proof (not rumors built upon rumors) if it did not succeed? Nearly no one. It's no different than right now.

1. If Iranians can build it then a lot of countries can build a test mock-up, most likely on the dirt cheap because the physical properties of resonance are not dependent on the controller (the controller is just manipulated to cause it).

Siemens, lots of money, required bureaucracy, they all become red herrings with this and other things in mind. No overkill required :) Pass directly through go but do not go full retard :3

The part of the actual intelligence world that would talk directly with NYT (and if not then the source is by definition not credible) about anything like this unless it was a sanctioned manipulation (by definition not credible) is zero zilch nada.

0. Please mod parent up.

1. Yes China did it (not Finland lol, one of the companies is just a Chinese owned company in Finland), it's the suggestion that makes the most sense from a practical point of view. I'd also like to emphasize that Stuxnet is subtle and elegant ---far east sensual finesse--- , attributes in very short supply from the US and Israel in recent years/decades.

2. One should be grateful for Stuxnet no matter who did it but remember it is extremely likely it was China. Yes China has some very serious human rights issues including Tibet but they can also do good and deserve credit when they do (and Stuxnet is not the only thing to be grateful to China and the Chinese people for).

2. It won't ever be declassified, I doubt there are any papers in the first place. Why do people mistakenly assume things can't be decided and organized without paper? The Chinese explanation would be a tight and relaxed (not a contradiction at all) operation without any need for specific documentation or written approval of any kind [SH/BG]. I wouldn't have a single problem running it myself nor would most people with half a brain :3

It's stuff that was most likely put together during a tea break and a few nommy take-out lunches with a very few people at different companies in the same city by the people with the knowledge: a "downwards up run" that when confirmed feasible just required a yes/no answer from a mid-ranking intelligence official with a solid situational awareness (so as not to make anyone get in trouble afterwards) i.e. someone who made sure to cover his/her Chinese ass from on high before giving the go-ahead :)

(Yes this non-Chinese wants it to be true: it's how this kind of stuff is supposed to be done if done right).

3. NYT and almost every news-article from the western world suffers from such a massive confirmation bias it's actually entertaining. It's not news though nor journalism.

*drums stomach*

By the way: congratulations to the people of Tunis and the relatively (compared to batons and bullets) modest but high-spirited and helpful efforts of Anonymous. So far so good.

And no; one won't read much about that angle in any newspapers :3 a hint or slight mention here and there but not much. Doesn't matter but shows how little information there usually is to be found in ordinary "news".

Looks very promising.

The chat logs can be complete forgeries. Look at this chat log please (slightly modified to display on Slashdot):

T 1293136794 18 EndYandY> lalala!
T 1293136799 18 Globulism> c access tot he accnt using the inductive splice
T 1293136801 18 Sinter8> so all you need is a shovel?
T 1293136804 18 Globulism> line access yes
T 1293136805 18 zpill> stfu
T 1293136806 18 Sinter8> and a drop?
T 1293136809 18 EndYandY> WHAT?
T 1293136811 18 Sinter8> do you have proof?
T 1293136811 18 Globulism> wait I'll post
T 1293136814 18 EndYandY> what are you talking about?
T 1293136816 18 2xic> SIPR hardhack
T 1293136819 18 EndYandY> ur going to jail :D
T 1293136821 18 2xic> lol'
T 1293136824 18 2xic> US death camp
T 1293136825 18 Globulism> snd344bgu.i2p
T 1293136842 18 zpill> jesus

Now that is a completely fake chat log, any normal chat log is only text and anyone can make anything. The easiest of course would be to create two accounts, go to a room, and log a private conversation with yourself...

No, SIPRNET is not hardhacked.
No, the US does not have to check every inch of their network cable in situ.
No, the US does not have death camps.

All fake, promise!

Whose lies are you going to believe anyways? :P

Do I misunderstand or are you saying you recognize the totalitarianism for what it is but would like to keep enjoying the bread and circus for as long as it lasts? I'm not going to call you any names, your attitude is very understandable. Totalitarianism is scary. I became afraid of my own supposedly democratic nation yesterday (not the US), it was illuminating, likely overblown (see what I did there?) but still illuminating.

Honestly without malice: to stay safe you should not make the kind of post that as you have, you should carefully not vote for anyone who has such notions, not sign up for or support anything at all because everything can be misconstrued, never discuss things with friends or acquaintances. The list goes on forever no matter how absurd, you might want to steal, memorize, and burn, a copy of 1984 to acclimatize yourself. I'm not being mean, to be "safe" requires such efforts and in addition simple luck because everyone is a criminal and now everyone is also a terrorist.

Your situation is also the main component of how totalitarianism always works, no matter if it is a boot covered in blood and shit pressing down on your face, or instead; a fashionable beautiful and highly polished stiletto heel pinning down your every move, always, for you and any descendants for eternity, unless finally enough people rebel if at all possible.

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/b9f0899e6537431b462ffcb16d9398ad is all I can do right now as far as I know but certainly much more is required. And this is no longer just about some diplomatic gossip, it is no longer just about the US. It is about freedom. It is about the US, Switzerland, France, Australia, the United Kingdom, Sweden, and maybe the entire western world, maybe absolutely every "democratic" nation that was meant to stand for something better than the rest that clearly aren't democratic. It is about the future of the world as we have known it and the ideals we and any representatives were supposed to have and cherish.

Become your own source: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/b9f0899e6537431b462ffcb16d9398ad (use the magnet link).

Any conservative against the current "cablegate" is a conservative in name only. I'm a "rightist" myself (but not easily defined as a conservative, more of a mix of things).

Not just any conservatives but any libertarians or any liberals or any and all against totalitarianism are fakes if they do not stand against what is happening.

If the purportedly democratic nations of the world that are supposedly governed by the people and meant to be representing the people are unable to protect a citizen of a purportedly democratic nation - a citizen under an international arrest warrant because of the prosecution's nonacceptance of his offer of testimony that was given in accordance with legally established and legally accepted methods, a citizen charged with a fabricated crime consisting of a nonsensical redefinition of rape and nothing else, anywhere - and if they instead not only turn a blind eye but encourage and perhaps even abet his demise, then they are just as guilty and not democratic at all.

Of course the government of the United States of America is not among such democratic nations nor is the current USA a republic in anything but name, that is by now abundantly clear. Australia? Switzerland? Sweden? The United Kingdom? France? The way things seem to going they might not be any better than the US.

The damning evidence of the cables is in the massive reaction that is taking place, and keep in mind that little has been released so far.

What can we do? How can we join the fight for freedom? There's the insurance file at http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/b9f0899e6537431b462ffcb16d9398ad but what else can one do? I am asking for suggestions. The bank accounts are being closed, the drop-off box revoked. How can anyone willing participate in this modern fight against blatant but highly polished totalitarianism?

I love America but now I also hate and despise the government of the United States of America, I used to be a strong and vocal friend but they've become an enemy. If I am representative for others similar to myself on the European right (and that might well be the case) then the government "Yanks" should shit their pants because it means they have extremely few friends left.

Yes the cables have contained little new although it has been a source of confirmation and embellishment --at least to this anti-idiotarian. However for this "rightist" the US federal government response to the cable leaks gave the most important information of all: the government of the United States of America is now unequivocally the enemy of freedom.

It's the same as with this year's Nobel Peace Prize; when I first heard who had gotten it I was somewhat surprisingly (at least to myself) lukewarm and skeptical, I was unsure if it was a move that would help rather than hinder increased freedom for the Chinese people. Then the Chinese government removed any and all doubt I had with their reaction.

I'm highly skeptical of the "leftism" and editorial mischief and propaganda that Wikileaks have previously done. I'm skeptical of Assange's personal character. These things remain, however the false accusation of rape and the massive public censorship taking place (DNS, Amazon, PayPal, PostFinance) makes those issues completely irrelevant and insignificant in comparison. It is the current actions of the United States government that has convinced me that as of right now the United States of America is a totalitarian enemy of freedom.

So for now I download and seed the insurance file http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/b9f0899e6537431b462ffcb16d9398ad

Not much but I know two things:
1. This "neo-con" "far right" freedom lover - me - is no longer a friend or ally of the totalitarian government of the United States of America.
2. Other European "rightist" freedom lovers are taking notice, some publicly under full names in national newspapers.

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/b9f0899e6537431b462ffcb16d9398ad

We used to all be "criminals". Now we're all "terrorists". The United States of America is now no better than the Islamic fascists. Both need to disappear. Violence is required.