You can make leaps of faith, and I certainly did. But, what I read made sense. It was logical. Also, the problem is not when you can make leaps of faith. It's when you have to, because there simply is no other way. And in science, you never have to. It's incredibly easier if you do, but you can choose not to, and arrive at the same conclusions.

Actually, I was twelve when I first read a book on Einstein and Relativity. The only thing you really have to believe at that time is that there can be no speed greater than that of light. Which you can verify later anyway. If you settle on that, the rest is pretty much understandable conceptually: if speed doesn't budge, then something else will have to, it so happens to be space and time. Not the details, not the math, but the high level description of restricted Relativity is pretty much understandable allright. I had far greater difficulty in understanding what the fuck it meant that "Jesus died for our sins": "Hum, the guy died because I stole some gum yesterday? But he died 2000 years ago, or so they say... *scratches head*"

Well, first of all, let me thank you (no sarcasm now) for a reasonable response. It seems quite more productive now to actually have a discussion with you. Which is really more than I can say about most people that take your side on this issue, if it makes sense to take a side at all.

I think we both explained our views elaborately already and that is a good thing. Others can come, read, and make up their own mind. And your last post actually made some sense and seems to me quite reasonable. I'll therefore just address one issue I think undermines your whole line of thought. I'm not advocating that Israelis (Jews, whatever) are any worse than anyone else. Nobody's perfect. But I do really think that on this issue you're far, very far, from being right. And that worries me, because you seem quite a reasonable person, and I'm inclined to believe that you are actually being honest. So:

This, my friend, is bullshit. Utter and complete bullshit. Iran is a hostile country to Israel, that much we agree. But Israel is also a hostile country to Iran, that is fact. So what? There are plenty of hostile countries to other countries. Hell, you can probably say that all countries are hostile in some way or another to all other countries. But it is one thing to say this, but another completely different thing is to say that country X wants to "nuke the whole world because they're fanatics".
That's something I've never seen any Iranian official ever say. And I do pay attention , trust me. It's like that other issue about the president of Iran wanting to "wipe Israel off the map". That was a bad translation. Intentionally bad, as it was Memri (check it out on Google please) that produced that translation, and it's quite obvious it's purpose is to advance Israel (or maybe not, I'll explain further along) agenda.
My point is this: You, the people of Israel (well, most people anyway) are being manipulated. By whom? By certain ones amongst yourselves, but especially abroad. What might be called "the Jewish lobby". So what is this Jewish lobby? For starters, the fact that it is Jewish is probably a coincidence, but a fact nonetheless, however, it's not composed of Jews only, many right-wing Christians also make part of it. And I'd say it's a bunch of people that actively profits from the current power and influence it has in Europe, US, and Israel. This might seem far-fetched but it's not. All you have to do is watch US foreign policy closely. But you need to put your Israeli and Jewish pride away while you do it, because that's what they feed on. So what should you look for in US foreign policy? In short: Israel.
Let me explain. If you look closely you see that the US always takes a position supportive of Israel. But that's only an illusion. What the US (and Europe and Israel) does really, is take a position supportive of the so called American-Jewish lobby (see AIPAC). So if the Department of State wants to take a harder approach on Israel in order to force Israel to take less hard-line positions, this lobby immediately pressures the US government and Houses to change that position. But if it is Israel that decides on taking a less hard-line position by herself, guess what the lobby does? It doesn't support Israel on that! It again pressures the US gov. and Houses to make Israel take more hard-line positions. So the outcome is always the same: US putting pressure on Israel to become more and more hard-line.

So these people want you to actually believe that the whole World hates you, Israel, the Jews, whatever it takes to further their cause. But in the long run, this is not in the interest of Israel, as it will only fuel more violence, which in turn discredits Israel and especially the US even more, which in turn generates more hate, and so on, in the classic spiral of violence.
But what do these people have to gain with this, you might ask? I honestly don't know. But whatever it is, it's certainly very important to them as they move considerable resources to achieve their ends.
Who's going to ultimately suffer the consequences of these poeple's actions? Israel if you ask me. It's the weakest link in all this. The lobby lives comfortably away from any violence, the US has all its power and fears no one, the Palestinians already lost pretty much everything, so that leaves Israel.
Because she depends on the US for money and protection, Israel is completely exposed to a change of heart in the US. Also, in case you haven't noticed yet, your country doesn't really collect many sympathies in the world. Of course, most people say that they're friends of Israel, but that's because if they don't they'll pay the consequences the "lobby" throws on anyone that criticizes Israel and, especially, the "lobby" itself.
You want my version of a scenario of doom? One that I think is much more realist than Iran "nuking the world"? Imagine that in a few months, for whatever reason, the voters in the US change their heart about the Palestinian issue, and they're no longer favorable to unconditional US support to Israel. That means the "lobby" looses it's influence, which is exerted through lobbying the politicians. That, in turn, means Israel will suddenly find herself alone in the world, surrounded by enemies. "Been there, done that" you'd say. Yes, well, at that time, Israel's neighbors weren't as well equipped and trained as they are now and, more importantly, Israel didn't have nuclear capability, which now she haves. So you'll have one cornered scared nation holding nuclear weapons, surrounded by revenge-hungry merciless enemies. In short, you have an imminent catastrophe.
So here's my advice. Know your enemy, and try to understand their motives. The Arab man, the Muslim man is not so different from you. There are fanatics everywhere, but they're overrated and can easily be spotted. Fear, Uncertainty and Disinformation campaigns are much harder to spot and bring much worse consequences. If you truly love your country, and you're ready to accept a peaceful solution to the mess you people got into, put your pride away for a few moments when you analyse what's going around you. It's not easy, but essential if you want to know the truth and secure a peaceful future for you and your own.

Peace

Well, this may come as hard to believe, but a tobacco banning law was enacted a couple years back in my country. Shortly after, I read on a major weekly newspaper an interview of the head of social security. When asked about this issue - costs vs. profits of tobacco to the government, and why didn't the government totally ban the thing as it was so costly for society - he replied something extraordinary: he said that people often think that smokers cost a lot to the state budget, but if they were to ban tobacco altogether, the social security system would collapse in a couple of years. Apparently, the people that die from lung cancer allow the state to save a lot of money that would have to be used in pensions and other retirement benefits to those same persons.

This can be extrapolated to alcohol I suppose. As a smoker, I've always wondered why is it that I have to pay more and more money to smoke, when everybody says its bad for everyone. If it's bad for everyone then ban the thing! I'm all for that. But now I know. Fucking hypocrites... To think that a state official comes up in public and says: "hey, smoking is bad for you, but we can't ban it because otherwise we'd have to support you for a lot more years, so you'll just have to pay more for it and eventually hide yourself because we have to give the impression that we're actually doing something to stop people from smoking!" is just mind-boggling...

You won't take crap from anyone heh? Who would've said.. Oh, that's right! I said it in my post. I was apparently right. Except that what you call crap is actually called dialogue, negotiation and compromise (and also billions of dollars - is that crap you don't take also? Figured not...) in the civilized countries. But that doesn't really interest you now does it?
So, sixty years ago there was a concentration camp for Jews you say. Well, for starters, nobody's talking about Jews. I though we were talking about Israelis. Unless you think that both are actually the same. But then I find it hard to understand how can the Palestinians live better occupied by a state and people that would never accept them as citizens, because they're not of the same race or religion or whatever it is that makes one a Jew.
And the concentration camp wasn't only for the Jews. You seem to forget about Roma, Communists, and all the other people that also suffered with that. You don't see them occupying other people's land and resorting to violence because of that now do you? What gives you the right of hijacking those people's suffering to advance your cause?
And don't you dare mentioning the Black people. Because they've endured suffering that you can't possibly imagine, for many times the time your country has existed as so. They have endured centuries of slavery and cultural destruction at the hands of many people and nations. Yet they aren't colonizing other people's land. Neither do they use that to make them special victims nor to extort money from others on baseless claims. Even when the ones that colonized their land and made them slaves still keep sucking out their resources they still don't act like your people and your country do. Maybe you have something to learn from them. Let me ask you this: If the Palestinians happened to be black, would that stop you from taking their land just because it was written in some book and you happened to need some? Probably not. Which makes you as bad as those that took the Black People's land.

Well, because for starters, it isn't your money. It's mostly the American taxpayers money. So you have a responsibility in spending it for productive ends and not for killing innocent children, women and men. You don't see the American taxpayers money going to Hamas do you? Perhaps that's why they have to literally manufacture their own defense mechanisms. Maybe the US should cut you off as well so that perhaps you could find more productive ways to spend the money your country can generate by itself.

And who are you to teach the Palestinians right from wrong then? Why should they bow to your will when you bow to no one's?

But still you avoid the important issues, as most of your people do. When in doubt, call on the concentration camps and the right of Israel to do anything it wants to. Word to the wise: you now have the upper hand, and the hijacked support of the government of the most powerful superpower in the World. It would seem that nothing can stop you. But no upper hand lasts forever. And when you loose it, people will judge you for the actions you took when you had it. I can guess what judgement they will pass... But then you'll come crying that people persecute you and hate you. No shit... But I guess that's the way you like it huh? An eye for an eye right? I can only feel sorry for the Israelis and Jews that don't share your pride and selfishness and the blindness they bring. For they will also pay for the crimes you are now committing, and that is a real shame.

Maybe it's because those rockets are about as basic as one can make them and they lack sophisticated target acquisition and navigation systems? I'm sure that if they had Tomahawks they wouldn't miss so much. Also, the allegation that it is children that fire those rockets is, as far as I've ever seen, just that: an allegation. I've never seen footage of children firing the aforementioned rockets. Or ever seen any Hamas element admitting so. Anyway, even if it is children that fire the rockets (why would people that are willing to sacrifice their lives in a suicide attack put their own children at risk before themselves is something I find mind-boggling and very hard to believe without hard proof) and that those rockets could eventually hit a kindergarten, that is no justification to kill those same children. I'm sure that with all the money Israel spends in weaponry, Israelis could find less lethal defense and deterrent mechanisms. After all, that's what 1st countries do.

I think you (Israelis in general and the ones that govern them in particular. I don't know about you, and I know that there are exceptions - which aren't anywhere as listened to as they should and as the war hawks are) just don't give a crap about the Palestinians and their children. After all, in the diplomatic level, Israel doesn't really give a crap about anyone or anything else, be it UN resolutions or the interests of its biggest ally and financer, or of its most important regional ally, which Israel effectively managed to alienate by unjustifiably killing nine of its citizens. Anything Israel (or Israeli-linked interests) does, becomes a PR nightmare that Americans and Europeans have to scramble to contain and apply damage control to. But I guess you don't really see that, do you? Israel can get along by applying the same recipe it does always: acuse inconvenient critics of anti-semitism and Israel hating. Even falling on the absurdity of accusing Jews and Israeli citizens of that, when they voice their criticism (internationally, as the press in Israel, truth be told, is actually quite free) of how Israel behaves as a country.

Until you people realize that what people hate is not Israel but Israel's atitude of complete disregard for anyone or anything else but their own (short term) selfish interests, or until the West and the US force you to, this is just going to keep going. And everyone, be it Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, Europeans, etc will keep suffering all the consequences of that. Once again, thanks a lot for that.

Seriously, I sometimes can't for the life of me figure if you people are just plain delusional and believe this or if you're lying consciously.

Palestinians did suffer a lot you say. First, I would say "Palestinians do suffer a lot". Secondly, exactly how much land, or relatives have you, or any of your ancestors lost in Israel at any time? Can you provide us with that info?
Thirdly, it's not just Palestinians we're talking about. Last time I did the math, the retribution ratio applied by the government and military of Israel has been roughly 1:400 i.e. for each Israeli casualty (civilian or otherwise), Israel makes 400 opfor casualties (civilian or otherwise). That would include mostly Palestinians and Lebanese in the recent years. Also, what kind of justification have you to give the people of Turkey for the nine Turkish citizens your IDF murdered on the assumption that they we're carrying weapons to Gaza, when all that was found in the boat was kitchen knifes and broom handles? Not to mention stripping European citizens that were on the same boat of all their property and documents, and never returning them? Or running American citizens over with bulldozers e.g. Rachel Corrie or shooting them in the head (see BBC's Dispatches on Gaza)? Were they also security threats to Israel?

Palestinians are seeing their land colonized by foreigners. Which is what most of the Israelis really are to the land they now occupy. They are long past the thinking with brains phase. It's pretty much desperation only that drives them. The failure of your government and society to understand this and apply a suitable solution that would demand compromise of both parts is what has thrown the world into the mess it is now with terrorism. Because of that reckless atitude and the complacency of the US and Europe towards it, no one can travel anymore without being subjected to frisks and detectors and bagage restrictions and x-ray machines. Thanks a lot for that. What I find ironic though is that your heroic founding fathers, never hesitated to blow things and (their own) people up to further advance their cause. Perhaps they didn't blow themselves up like the Palestinians sometimes do. Perhaps they should've. But that's not really convenient to talk about, now is it?

Why don't you people just occupy the damn thing once and for all and have the courage to openly assume that that is what you really want and that you won't stop at nothing to achieve it?

Have you people even considered that they didn't make an atomic device because they don't want to?

They're people too you know? They want to live their lives like everybody else. They don't because, in their eyes, a foreign-backed foreign power is usurping what used to be their land. So they take violent action against whom they perceive as their enemies and its supporters. But that doesn't mean they'd be willing to detonate nuclear weapons because of that. Why would they contaminate the land they claim as theirs with radiation? Not to mention destroying most it in the detonation itself?

When are people going to understand that terrorism is not a mental condition? It's a way of fighting. Normally used when you're at a very disproportionate disadvantage. Give them a force comparable to the IDF and watch terrorism decline sharply. Hell, why doesn't Israel use their nuclear weapons then? They have them. Because they're the good guys? Or maybe because they don't want to destroy what they're trying to obtain?

*sigh*

Well, I can't see how not to wipe entire cities of someone who's already willing to cease hostilities and instead showing them that you can wipe them can be idiotic. Specially considering that the US had the obvious advantage by completely controlling the Japanese air space.

Anyway, the attack on Pearl Harbor was far from being a blunder. It was the best option given the circumstances. It was a brilliantly executed and planned strategic move, given the assumption that the US would enter the war sooner or later.
The same reasoning could be applied to the German attack on Russia. Even more so when you consider that Russia (and Britain for that matter) only managed to get by with the enormous material and financial support from the US.

The real blunders as far as I'm concerned were the Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq wars by the US, and the invasion of Afghanistan by the USSR. Those were/are wars that were bound to be doomed at their very inception, because in those cases, sheer military power wasn't enough. It was like fighting flies with elephants.

What was wrong with just showing them the bomb?

Besides, hadn't Japan already offered peace before the two detonations? Let's get real here. No one in their sound mind wouldn't surrender to a weapon like the A-Bomb, especially at that time. Almost all the scientists involved in making the bomb preferred to make a demonstration to Japan, before actually deploying the weapons in real targets. The only reason the bombs were detonated was to warn USSR that America (or Harry Truman, as you prefer) had a shiny new apocalipse device, and wouldn't hesitate to use it. Prevent the loss of life, my ass.

It was a moot effort anyway, and the Russians were already working on the same thing, and wouldn't take long for them to showcase their toy as well.
So, in the end, only the Japanese lost with all this. Japanese civilians, women and children got conscientiously and mercilessly slaughtered (not to mention the consequences of radiation which can be seen still today, but I'll concede they might not be understood completely at the time) just for the Russians to see.
That is the truth, whether you like it or not.

Yes, I know. I sometimes get carried away, because I feel people don't get how important this whole issue is.

As for your quote, remember that while there doesn't seem to be a motive for Iraqis to slander Islam, there sure are motives for them to claim they're catching terrorists. Money and equipment from the US might very well be dependent on that they do capture terrorists (it probably doesn't really matter whether they can actually prove that the people they capture are terrorists). So there's probably a strong incentive for the military and government to make these kinds of claims. Nothing that hasn't happened before.

Nevertheless, I'm not claiming there aren't terrorists in Iraq, or even that they don't resort to sometimes brutal and abject means of recruiting. I am saying that such claims should be thoroughly scrutinized, because they are serious accusations that can spark/fuel prejudice and stereotyping which in turns leads to more violence, etc. Ultimately, we end up suffering with that. Not only are we more likely to be the victims of a terrorist attack, we also get our rights stripped in name of security...

Of course I am. But believing is not the point here. Like you said, you gave me five citations. Well, the only one with a modicum of credibility, clearly states that the allegation linking rape with suicide attacks was not independently verified. The others are echoes and offshoots of Israeli propaganda. So your citations prove or support nothing. So the allegations you reported on your first post are still baseless. At least in the way they were stated.

Ruthless people will exploit anything for their benefit. Islam is just another religion. There are better religions perhaps, but definitely not its older cousins Christianity and Judaism. We should actively resist the idea of Islam being a cause for terrorism. It's not. Christians have resorted to terrorism many times to advance their cause. Jews founded their country on it. But we seem to forget all that.

Persisting on that path will only bring the Western countries more headaches and possibly even worse consequences. The last thing we want is to start a war with Muslims. If we do, we can expect it to be very, very long. Trust me, my country's been there, done that. Nevertheless there are specific interests which seem bent on trying everything they can to debilitate and ruin Western/Muslim relations. You can see that in Europe's political speech. Something unthinkable 5 years ago, is now openly stated by UK, France and Germany officials: Multiculturalism has failed. Europe is beginning to adopt a harder stance on Muslims, restricting their freedom and criminalizing them as terrorists. This is a path to disgrace.
The Muslims resent Israel and its policy against Palestinians, furthermore, they don't understand how the US, despite all the sweet talk about liberty etc., continues to unconditionally support the Israeli policies, despite blatant violations of both human rights and UN Resolutions. This sparks anger against the US and, since Europe follows the US and Israel, against Europe. Yet people act as if their anger comes out of nowhere! As if they are only crazy people with a sudden wish to blow themselves up. What I fear is that, once again, Europe will become a battleground. I'd bet someone is wanting Europeans to do their dirty work of destroying Muslims and, as so, is pitching Europe against Islam.

This is why I must react so strongly to such allegations. They originate more from fear-mongering than from objective facts. And that is dangerous.

from the Digital Journal article:

and from Hyscience.com:

Well, IsraelNN.com? Hardly the source of unbiased, accurate and objective information about Muslims is it? Research like yours? Thanks, but no thanks. When are the news about Muslims making human lampshades and shrunken heads of baby Jews gonna come out? What about they eating them for breakfast?
There's an acronym for labeling this kind of allegations: FUD