But since non-human animals can't give us consent to take the milk they produced for their own offspring, that stolen cows' or goats' milk is not vegan.
Well, if you go into that, plants cannot give consent either. It seems like the only way out for vegans is starving to death.
"Giving consent" assumes being aware of the implications of what is happening. Unless you assume animals have the mental capability of understanding the abstract notion of property and the difference between stealing and buying, the act of giving consent has no meaning for them.
please remember this topic started with breast-feeding. there is a huge leap from a mother "consenting" to give her own child her own breast milk and attempts at interpreting cow behavior as "consenting" the being treated in the industrialized way by which milk is largely obtained (in the u.s. anyway).
also, isn't it a bit absurd to think property has anything to do with consent? i suppose if you want to drape the term "property" over an animal's desired treatments of their own body, i'd have to believe any animal is mentally capable.
Milk is vegan, if the animal you obtain it from, consents to give it to you [...]
But since non-human animals can't give us consent to take the milk they produced for their own offspring, that stolen cows' or goats' milk is not vegan.
That's highly subjective -- How do you define "consent" when it comes to animals without speech? Modern cows certainly don't look like they're objecting to that part of their treatment (it even saves their lives, actually). If you're saying they only do that because they were bred that way (which is correct)... Well, the same can be said for human females.
well, one easy standard to apply is "would they do were it not forced on them?" i have yet to read about or see any animal in the wild stockpile their milk outside their bodies, let alone for consumption by another species.
Exactly. Those who say the US can use mass transit have never been here.
San Francisco is not like Denton, is not like New York City, is not like Kansas City, is not like Conshohoken, is not like Phoenix, is not like Columbus, etc.....
You also can't use mass transit in farming communities.
umm...i live here. i live in los angeles, capital of sprawl. i've used mass transit for over 10 years to commute (normally, i don't like shameless self-promotion, but if you want proof of at least the last year and a half or so, check my blog.). i say we could use more.
you can always find places where it won't work (sorry, can't speak to whether denton and conshohoken actually fit the bill). but are we making the most of where it can work?
. beardo's point was simply that you can be healthy as a vegan, not that you can not be healthy without being vegan.
I'm not sure that your reading of it is correct. You seem to argue that he's saying that he's healthy DESPITE being vegan.
that's not at all what i'm arguing. actually, that's what i think you're arguing. if neither of us are actually arguing that, then let's drop it.
I guess you can interpret his post like that.
His argument, as I read it, was that he is vegan, healthy, and that being vegan is in part a foundation of that health.
right. to which you replied "a diet need not be vegan to be healthy." well, he never contended the opposite or even close. he just said you CAN be vegan and perfectly healthy, not that you MUST be vegan to be healthy. from my understanding of the term "straw man" (take something someone didn't say and refute it easily), this is a perfect example.
Seeing as HIS own follow up response didn't accuse me of straw men or other gross mischaracterizations of his argument, I'm not sure your reading is correct.
just because he didn't call you out on it doesn't mean you didn't do it.
maybe you're making the point that diet doesn't affect health?
You do realize I explicitly wrote that "a healthy diet is important." in the post you are accusing me of making the point that diet doesn't affect health right? I'm pretty sure your going to have a tough time reconciling that without some pretty irrational leaps of logic.
well, you did write "a healthy diet is important," of course, but you also pretty plainly said a vegan diet did not contribute to his health ("not this"). i'm not sure i'm the one that needs to do any reconciling here.
I eat a vegan diet
Not this.
nice straw man. beardo's point was simply that you can be healthy as a vegan, not that you can not be healthy without being vegan. of course, maybe you're making the point that diet doesn't affect health?
The hardest part of climbing the ladder of success is getting through the crowd at the bottom.