"That is a matter of math, or not? Either you fix the wrong name plate, or you fix the place where you place them. I mean: if a wind turbine is rated to yield 8MW power at a wind speed of 30feet/sec but you put it on a place where that speed is rarely reached or exceeded, it can't be the wind mills fault."
Apparently, it happens often enough. One can put the blame on everyone else, the fact remains that the actual energy most windmills deliver are de facto a lot less than promised. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...
note that the situation won't improve, since the first windmill-parks are obviously going to be build in the best wind-covered places. Additional ones will get *less* good spots, since the best ones are already taken. So, it's not that they can't technically possibly get to their vaunted maximum, it's that they just don't, in practise. This relates to the stochastic nature of wind.
Changing the 'nameplate' to a more realistic output would indeed solve that part...well: why, then, do green sites/blogs/groups never do that? Note that this would also mean that, when they compare 100 windmills of 8MW to a nuclear plant of 800 MW, they're actually NOT using an adequate comparison, since they would need, in fact, *300* windmills for that, thus, with triple the price - and still being stochastic in nature. It's math, yes. So why does the pro-camp not apply it correctly?
"The costs are calculated quite different than you think. A guy pacing a wind farm somewhere surely knows how much energy he can expect over the year and if an investment makes sense."
Wrong. You may not be aware of this, but wind-energy is *heavily* subsidies by the state, in most countries. This, in turn, means the actually efficiency DOES NOT (or at least, far less) matter, since they don't earn directly from the cost/benefit that it delivers, but by being subsidized. As long as you can make profit with the subsidies, it doesn't really matter *how* efficient it is. The taxpayers pays for it anyway. And that's also the reason why, in countries that stop with all those huge subsidies, a lot of those wind-mill companies close doors and can't survive. In short, the whole wind-energy industrial complex is a heavily subsidised one, which only survives thanks to those subsidies (aka, money that was first derived FROM the economy, thus).
"That is wrong. If that was the case you would need for every classical plant a classical back up plant, too."
What ARE you talking about? A gas-powered plant does not need a backup, because it's not stochastic in nature. It has a constant, well-defined amount of energy (gas) that it can use. It can do load-balancing. Thus, it can level out the peaks and valleys of demand and supply (of energy) on short notice.
The fact you say is wrong, simply indicates you are totally unaware of the facts. They do. It's not surprising you don't know, because many like you just don't research things, but repeat what others (greens) say (and of course, they'll always ommit things that speak unfavourable of it). Here, let me give you a link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/je...
Please read up before claiming something is wrong out of hand.
"Obviously, because of the continent wide grids, wind plants can back up each other just as classical plants back up each other."
No, they can't. Because every windfarm is stochastic in nature, not just your own. This means you're basically playing statistical roulette, and *hope* it will *ALWAYS* be enough. And: WHAT 'continent wide grid'? Do you have any idea what trillions that would cost?
"I stop here with debunking your bullshit."
No, please continue, since we were just coming to the good part. As you can see - I've provided links this time - it's YOU who are - wittingly or (as it appears) - unwittingly spouting BS. You haven't debunked anything at all. I've provided clear counter-arguments to any of your own arguments, AND provided links to substantiate them. You didn't refute anything at all. In fact, most of your arguments were outright wrong.
Now, even using 'the smart grid', you didn't even touch on the inherent problems that I pointed out. How, if a broad weather front(s) arrives that makes it wind-poor at half your continent, are you going to provide energy to it? By the half that does get enough wind? but - think about this - this means that that half doesn't only need enough windmills for enough energy of themselves, but need DOUBLE as much windmills, in case the other half needs it. And vice versa. Thus DOUBLING the total price (and even make it tenfold with the smart net). But - as said, but which you ignored - it's even worse: if 80% of the time it DOES blow strong enough in the whole continent, this means half of the windmills are not needed, and are basically running idle. That is economic suicide: half your investment isn't worth anything 80% of the time! This could only work with eternal and massive subsidies from the state and thus taxpayers, which would drive up the price even more to outright craziness.
"Perhaps you should simply read about the stuff instead of leaning back on your couch"
May I suggest you do the same? You seem to be in more need for it than I. Basically every statement - and now you can see for yourself - was right, and you didn't debunk nor refute any of them with valid arguments.
"That are nice alternatives."
They're better, seen from a stable-energy delivery standpoint. But they have their problems too. And most impôrtantly: not all countries can use them, let alone use them in an economic viable way.
"Solar and wind are not stochastic. Or weather reports would be greatly unreliable."
Huh? You *really* don't know what stochastic means, do you? Here:
randomly determined; having a random probability distribution or pattern that may be analyzed statistically but may not be predicted precisely.
You seem to be behind the times: http://arxiv.org/abs/1510.0868... . And that windmills, who rely on the weather are stochastic in nature, isn't even contested anymore: https://books.google.be/books?...
The fact you do not realise that a weather report is *never* 100% reliable, but is, in stead, a statistical analysis of the weather patterns, with a certain degree of likelihood (which drastically falls down the longer one wants to predict), indicates you have no firm grip on the concept of a stochastic phenomenon.
Again, follow your own adevice and do some research first, and you'll see it IS stochastic in nature. Use the correct definition of the term, for starters, of course.
"So, wou want to tell me someone is so idiotic that he is placing a wind plant (not a single wind mill, if we talk about plants we mean a few hundred) at a place where he can expect no wind for a week or longer?"
You're just not getting it. It's a matter of probability. Large weather fronts can occur, that span vast area's, and give wind-poor conditions for days on end. In my own country, about 20 days a year are wind-still (even more than wind-poor, thus). Since it's due to a weather front, it can take several days in a row. WHAT are you going to do, then? Saying to the factories and companies they're just out of luck. and do note it's always a matter of probability: even if you had storage for 1-2 days, which you could abridge... sooner or later a 3 or 4 day wind-low will pop up. Even if you had a week that you could cover: it's only a matter of likelihood; if once in ten years a 2 weeks wind-low happens, you're AGAIN with the same difficulty. You can *never* assure a stable energy delivery, always, all of the time. And no, as I said numerous times (and you didn't touch): a smart grid doesn't solve this. And even if one would try, it would be hugely expensive an economic disaster if done by private firms (without subsidies).
Green-eyed people sometimes say: "ah, but far-off-shore plants have more wind". Which is true. But the same inherent problem remains: it STILL remains a probabilistic matter. And that's because it's a stochastic system. I'm not understanding why you guys don't get that.
The ONLY way to remedy this, is storage-devices which would capture and hold the energy for weeks on end, and being able to deliver it when asked. But think about this: for providing the world with that sort of energy, it would take millions upon millions of windmills, all located far off-shore, distributed all over the planet, all connected by a electricity low-resistant smart-grids, and all with huge, massive and expensive batteries... It would cost trillions. And you *still* would need to subsidise it to remain economically viable. It's pure madness. I don't get why greens imagine this to be an ideal concept. Some even promote it in their paper. It's nonsensical. And it's certainly economically absurd.
You could get the same amount of energy, far more stable and reliably, with a fraction of the cost, in other ways, like with 3gen nuclear plants and later on with LFTR-plants.
Really, it just makes no sense, if you look at it rationally.