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Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

And yet there are still some reporters who do investigations.

Yes. Some. Dare I say a vast minority. Given how we're constantly hearing about some blunder in the industry about popular media outlets running with a false story because they don't check their sources it's a real problem. It's beyond the general stupid masses. Even some of the smarter people will typically have some media outlets who they think are "trustworthy" and then take stories on face value. It doesn't take much for a slip-up to screw someone's life.

Heck the general public has gone bat shit crazy only last week on revelations that Snowden has compromised national security because the Russians and the Chinese now have American secrets. Or so pretty much every major news outlet has repeated based on some anonymous source that talked to a single paper.

I have seen no evidence that the general public has gone "bat shit crazy" or even noticed the story. Perhaps you are paying too much attention to news sources that magnify the facts to get a more interesting story. The technique has been around for more than 100 years: see Yellow journalism.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

my opinion, the libel laws should apply only to an accuser who is willing to defend his accusation in public.

Just no. If the statement was made publicly, and the the speaker should reasonably have known it was false, then they must be subject to the law. Damage may already be done! You'd give people a pass to hit-and-run.

I will not endorse such a scheme.

Yes, I would give people a pass to hit-and-run. I would do so because I believe the only alternative is disallowing anonymous libelous speech, either by suppressing the speech or piercing the anonymity. The problem is that the definition of libelous will be perverted by the powerful to include anything that makes them uncomfortable, and that leads to the suppression of anonymous dissent.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Reporter investigation? What's that?

No seriously for the most part investigations are a thing of the past. We live in a world where everyone is a live reporter themselves. An accusation gets made and moments later it hits twitter, Facebook etc, and millions of people know you as a paedophile. Then you come out through a reputable news agency and millions of people will think "Of course he says that, he's trying to hid the fact he's a paedophile!". When things go REALLY south you may even find reputable news agencies pick up what's making the round on twitter as fact, and then your Wikipedia page will have that listed as well complete with references to the media.

Anonymous Cowards can do a lot of damage in the modern media because the masses in general are stupid. Heck last week someone took a selfie of themselves against some poster, and some white knight though he was taking a snap of a child sitting further away, took his photo and it was shared several 10s of thousands of times on Facebook until someone AT HIS WORK mentioned it.

And yet there are still some reporters who do investigations.

I think you have identified the heart of the problem: "...the masses in general are stupid." It is my hope that, in time, the masses will become less stupid. Even so, I would rather suffer from the stupidity of the masses than risk the suppression of all speech that offends the powerful.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

I have faith in people's intelligence. Maybe I'm wrong,

And history shows pretty clearly that you are.

Libel laws did not arise out of some lawmaker's whim. They developed over a very long time, and for very good societal reasons.

Knowingly and intentionally (not the same things) making false statements about somebody can do real damage to his or her reputation, livelihood, family life, etc. I mean real damage, in the same sense as a broken leg is damage. Once that's done, maybe they won't have the resources to fight back. Clearly that would be a one-sided situation favoring the "false witness". That's why there are legal remedies.

Of course legal remedies aren't a panacea. It takes money, time, and effort to sue somebody. That's why sometimes even if it really is libel, and really can be proved, and the injured party really does want to sue, he or she may not be reasonably able to at any given time for a number of reasons.

In order for libel laws to be effective, it has to be possible to identify the accuser. Even when it is, the accuser may be beyond the reach of justice, for example by being dead. The major benefit of libel laws, in my opinion, is that they provide a public forum (court) where the issue can be debated and a neutral party (judge or jury) can publicly decide who is right. That doesn't work if the accuser can't be made to defend his position.

In my opinion, the libel laws should apply only to an accuser who is willing to defend his accusation in public. Society should give no weight to anonymous accusations unless they are accompanied by a persuasive argument. If the accusation involves criminal conduct the State can pursue the criminal case. If it doesn't, the accused might feel that a public response to the argument is warranted.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

You have a good point, and I don't have a very good answer either. There is the evil of being persecuted based on unfounded rumor, and there is the evil of "the right to be forgotten" leading to unpersons as described in "Nineteen Eighty-Four", where the inner party controls history.

Personally, I feel that the risk of tyranny is the greater of the two evils. If somebody is unwilling to deal with me socially because of a rumor about me that they've heard, and they are unwilling to ask me or those who know me personally about it, then I accept that I lose out, either on a friend, a job, a customer, or whatever. It's a price I am willing to pay.

Furthermore, I am not sure the evils that follow an unjust accusation will last forever. In time, those who rejected you will realize that you aren't such a bad guy after all, and your social status will slowly recover. Yes, people meeting you for the first time will be put off by the old records of the rumor, but those close to you will, I believe, eventually forgive you.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Free speech does not imply freedom from the consequences of your speech. If you make untrue accusations about someone you can be held accountable for your actions. The government is not stopping you from speaking, which would infringe your free speech rights. if you do it anonymously then it is not ureasonable for someone to want to pierce the veil of anonymity.

The road you are going down leads to suppression of speech which the powerful find uncomfortable. I would rather have the ability for an anonymous speaker to remain anonymous, no matter what he says. I would rather make the effort to ignore hateful and foolish speech than risk the suppression of dissent.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

Let me introduce you to Dale Akiki. Patently false accusations, including that he had sacrificed a giraffe in a church classroom during Sunday services, landed him in an extended court trial. He was eventually exonerated, but for a long stretch of the 1990s, everyone in San Diego knew he was a satanic pedophile.

An interesting article, thank you. It recounts a shameful period of American history, when people were convicted of child abuse based on manufactured evidence. However, I do not agree that "everyone in San Diego" believed that Dale Akiki was a satanic pedophile. My daughter was living in San Diego at the time, and I don't think she believed it. In fact, I would venture to guess that most people in San Diego who were even aware of the trial treated it as theatre.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

If it is a bare, unsupported, accusation, just deny it. If the smearer offers evidence, offer evidence of your own that the accusation is untrue.

For example, an ad to show that I am not a witch. Everyone will believe that.

If the original accusation was simple "She's a witch" then it would have been better to ignore it, in my opinion. Apparently she thought she could ridicule her opponents by turning it into a joke. Maybe she is right.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

I have faith in people's intelligence.

You're joking. Have you taken a look at people lately?

I know what a mob can do. I'll never forget the Watts riots. Nevertheless, I believe in the basic goodness of people. As best I can tell, most people who riot are looters, just trying to steal stuff. They feel like if they don't take something they are foolishly depriving themselves. I don't see any evil there, just greed and selfishness.

There are truly evil people in the world, but they are by far the minority.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1) 233

For this kind of smear, in this kind of context? No, no "more speech" isn't the solution, it actually makes it worse to issue denials as it makes the original allegation more prominent, and makes a large percentage of the population think it might be true because "there's no smoke without fire."

Doesn't filing a court case do even more than a denial to make the original allegation more prominent?

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 1, Interesting) 233

Fine, but doesn't there have to be consequences when someone just makes shit up about someone else? Especially when it's something that is such a powderkeg in current climate? We don't consider it reasonable that people prove a negative, so you're already on the backfoot if someone decides to start a rumour. With Twitter and Wikipedia, it's very easy for a rumour to get repeated so much it feels like the truth.

I have faith in people's intelligence. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most people will see through baseless accusations, and not simply react to them with revulsion. If I were accused anonymously of pedophilia, with no further details, I would simply ignore the accusation, and I think most people would.

If somebody makes something up about me there are consequences: he loses credibility. I think that's enough. Yes, if you say something loud enough, and often enough, people will start to believe it. However, the Internet cuts both ways. I can deny a baseless accusation in a blog post, and anyone who cares enough to check will find it.

A system which could somehow suppress false accusations runs the danger of being perverted into suppression of any criticism of the powerful. I would rather have no suppression at all than take that risk.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 2, Informative) 233

In other words, this is intended to have a chilling effect on political speech.

That depends. If you think smear campaigns are a legitimate weapon of politics, then yes.* ... * In which case you're welcome to explain how this is not a legitimate defence against smear campaigns.

The proper defense against a smear campaign is not to try to silence the smearer, but to defend yourself against the merits of the attack. If it is a bare, unsupported, accusation, just deny it. If the smearer offers evidence, offer evidence of your own that the accusation is untrue. The cure for bad speech is not less bad speech but more good speech.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 3, Informative) 233

Accusing someone of molesting children is political speech now? Sure...

Isn't it right that people are careful what they say about other people?

I am a firm believer in free speech. The cure for bad speech (as the accusation apparently was) is not less bad speech but more good speech. If I were accused, anonymously, of pedophilia, I would not try to use the courts to find my accuser. Instead I would ignore the accusation unless it was repeated by an identifiable person, such as a reporter asking if it were true. I would answer the reporter by saying it was not, and offering to cooperate with the reporter's investigation into whether or not I was a podophile if he felt the accusation was credible enough to be worth the effort.

Comment Re:Bill Hadley is going to be disappointed (Score 2, Insightful) 233

When he finds out the commenter was an 11 year old middle-schooler on his lunch break in the library, and not the great political adversary that he's making it out to be.

Not only that, but it's exceedingly difficult to make an example out of an 11 year old, to other 11 year olds, and not looking like an out of touch politician who's been expertly trolled by someone one fifth his age. This seems like a huge waste of resources, politically and judicially.

I don't think he will be disappointed. I think the purpose of the lawsuit is to send a message to Mr. Hadley's future political opponents to be careful what they say about him. In other words, this is intended to have a chilling effect on political speech.

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