What attitude? I mean if you think it's remotely smart to try and hit on a feminist in an empty elevator go right ahead. But a) you'll probably make her feel uncomfortable rather than sexually interested b) she may escalate the situation in ways you don't like.

There is no order. It is advice. Ignore it if you like, but that means you are a bit of a creep who worries women rather than attracting them.

Well in this specific example, because he followed her into an otherwise empty elevator. But men can use their legs to get themselves alone with women in all manner of creative ways. Have you heard of walking?

If you think she's going to humiliate you, and that worries you. Don't hit on her.

She didn't humiliate him on a youtube video. She said the conference was great and there were lots of people that got what she was trying to say about the way women were treated in the community, except this one guy, it was like 4AM and she said she was going to bed, she walked onto an elevator and a man got on with her. '"I'd like to talk more, want to come to my room for coffee". "Guys - don't do that. It made me uncomfortable. A single woman, in a foreign country, at 4AM in a hotel elevator. Don't ask me to your room after I've spent the day talking about sexualising makes me feel uncomfortable." {paraphrased semi quote} That's not humiliation, that's calmly explaining her position and why she thinks guys shouldn't do that. What part of your brain flips out at a person calmly asserting their own boundaries that makes you think it is humiliating?

Women will get over their discomfort when a certain and significant percentage of men don't get angry at women who decline their sexual advances.

I'm not sure what women you have tried hitting on, or how you are doing it - but if you are not getting reactions like 'no thank you', it's probably because you are being an asshole. The last time a female humiliated me for showing an interest and making a move was when I was 14. Hey,if you are generalising all women as needing to 'learn how to cope with angry men calling them a bitch for not wanting to sleep with them', maybe that says something about how you view women, and thus talk to them, which they pick up on, and thus humiliate you as a tool to get you to change whatever is causing them to react that way.

The fact that you don't see why you should be a gentleman on the grounds that some women are unpleasant is the final clue that you're doing it wrong.

well 'you' didn't - but the 'side' you are defending did.

If you are having difficulty knowing whether a hug is wanted or not, don't hug.
If you aren't sure about the difference between a welcome friendly consensual greeting hug and an unwanted sexual contact hug - then you are probably a social problem and people are already talking about you behind your back. You referenced Bora Zivkovic. Here is the edited accusation against him which he admitted to:

"He began describing his own experience of going to a strip club. Then he described himself as “a very sexual person.” Then he told me about his wife’s sexual and mental health history. Then he began telling me about his dissatisfaction with his current sex life with his wife. Then he reminded me that he was “a very sexual person.” Then he told me, in an awful lot of detail, about how he almost had an affair with a younger woman he’d been seeing at conferences.

. At the end of the meeting, I hugged him, which may seem bizarre; but earlier he’d identified himself as a “hugging person” and so do I, generally, and I was still in shock and trying to smooth over the incident."

When you have considerable power over someone, veering the conversation towards sexual topics like that, is harassment or at least stupendously inappropriate and creepy, immorally so. It gives the impression (deliberate or not) that in order to get what you want (the thing he has the power to provide) you'll need to know that he is 'a sexually frustrated sexual person who is open to casual sex outside of his marriage'. This is like saying 'You want my contacts? Suck my dick!"

If you are ignorant of this social interplay - avoid talking explicitly about sex with women you've just met and you should be fine. I don't see any accusaionts against him for sexual assault. What exactly are you trying to say?

Yes, all rape is unwanted sexual contact.
Not all unwanted sexual contact is rape.

This was about unwanted sexual contact in general.

Except we're talking about a specific report of this incident happening. It's called ElevatorGate. Have you looked that up yet?

I have not even partially accused you of being a molester? Monster? Or whatever. I asked you a rhetorical question to show that what I am saying is perfectly reasonable. IF you are going proposition strange women, don't do it when they're alone with no help or escape. You agree with this position, and go further and say just don't proposition strange women. That's absolutely fine. I've never done either. The MENZ of the internet DEMANDED the right to proposition strange women at 4am and many of them said they were entitled to do so in elevators or wherever else they felt like doing it. There was a whole controversy. Called ElevatorGate. Have you highlighted that phrase and selected 'search Google' yet?

I'm aware of what I posted. Let me quote it to you.

If you don't want to look like a creep - ask the girl to your room around witnesses (they don't have to hear, just as long as you make it feel safe for her to refuse).

IE., sat at the bar together where there are other patrons in the bar, a bartender and maybe some security.

Or maybe in lobby of the hotel as you both walk towards the elevator where there is a receptionist and maybe some security and other hotel guests milling around.

Who in his sane mind asks a random women he never has met before about 'sex'?

Elevator Guy.

So what is your nonsense post/accusion about?

ElevatorGate.

Don't interpret bullshit into other peoples posts!

You haven't laid any groundwork of my interpreting other people's posts, so this random nonsense is strange to see.

No I didn't. I specifically said twice that it does not need to be within earshot.

Why would anyone do that, oh yes ... certainly in your experience this happens.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/E...

That's what this subthread is about.

I mean, seriously!
Do you think these are place women really want strange men to proposition them for sex?

Dark Alleyways
In the park at night
In a low traffic stairwell of a near empty building
In an underground parking garage
In an elevator
On the subway
Just before she opens the front door to her inner city house at 3AM in the morning

Because if you do, then you are the one with a serious problem.

On the other hand, elevegator guy could have have quietly asked her on the way to the elevator and if she said 'no', he could let her catch the elevator on her own. But he waited until it was enclosed space with nobody watching. You don't see why this might not be cool?

I didn't suggest you do that.

I suggested you made sure there were people around, not necessarily within earshot.

Do you think walking up to strange women when they are alone with no prospect of immediate help around and propositioning them for sex is polite?

It is perfectly logical to call a tomato a vegetable. Because it is a vegetable (culinarily speaking). It's also a fruit (botanically speaking).

Ah, 'some "feminists"'. They're always up to no good those 'some "feminists"'.

First, we're talking cold propositions here. The kind of proposition where there has been no previous conversation/flirtation etc.
Second, I didn't suggest doing it so others can overhear - indeed I pointed this out. Just so that they can see what's going on - or at the very least the lady you are propositioning has an easy way to get to witnesses (so avoid metal cages suspended in the air, for example).

This is because some men are gigantic assholes who, when it is safe for them to do so, get aggressive at 'bitches' that turn them down, and being alone with a testosterone-fuelled human with hard-on is pretty terrifying because the consequences can turn horrifying. If you want to know what such men can be like when women don't submit and they have basic anonymity? Check out the internet.

So be the gentleman, always make sure the ladies you proposition can politely turn you down without fear.

If nothing else, realize this - if you cold proposition a woman on her own, she may feel that it isn't a 'request' and you may end up inadvertently raping or sexually assaulting someone if she says OK out of fear. I doubt you'd be prosecuted for such a rape, but morally you'd be a rapist. Play on the safe side, always give girls an out.

I'm glad to see you have corrected your argument from it's previously incorrect position.

They don't define "unwanted sexual contact." For example, Bora Zivkovic had a habit of hugging women, some of whom didn't enjoy it. That is literally an "unwanted sexual contact." It may be creepy, unpleasant or inappropriate, and it should (and did) stop. But it's not rape.

This study is about unwanted sexual contact, not rape. If you don't know what unwanted sexual contact means, take a course. Hint, pressing your body up against an unwilling partner is unwanted sexual contact.

This study doesn't distinguish between unwanted hugging and forcible rape, and it doesn't break down the 26% figure into more or less violent forms of unwanted sexual contact. It doesn't even give the number of violent rapes.

Aww, does it not discuss legitimate rape? It's a study about sexual assault.

If you have an unknown number of unwanted huggings, at one end of the spectrum, and an unknown number of violent rapes, at the other end of the spectrum, then that's a big grey area.

Not if you are looking at rates of sexual assault. In which case, it's exactly what you were looking for.

I'd like to see a better-quality study.

You're free to fund one, or if you think you can do better - perform it yourself.