Ok, let's put one thing straight:

Microsoft has the full right to do what it wants with Windows.

If the wants to forbid anyone else to bundle, it can do it. If it wants to scrap it into the trashcan, be it.

What Microsoft has no right to do is to claim what Windows is not. They claim it is an Operating System. Cool, I have my little-pretty program here, I want to run it on Windows. No way? Then don't tell me you are selling an operating system. Call it whatever you want - a all-bundled system, an application complex, the bloat of the gloat or the gloat of the bloat...

But "Operating System" is something with a clear definition, with a definite purposefulness and for which Microsoft has no patents, trademarks or special privileges. Stop using it, stop using the OS definitions to describe Windows and be happy. Like Sony and other companies.

However Microsoft does no do it. Why?

Because it is afraid of loosing potential market?

It fears that someone may come with some new bright idea and they will not be able to surrepteously bundle it?

Because this may create independent systems upon which Microsoft will not have a hand on?

Because it will be much harder to asfixiate a concurrent?

And for how long such opportunism will continue? Until all creativism is crushed and the land barren?

"Fascists were not doing anything wrong in the 30's and they are not doing anything wrong now. Yes Fascism sucks and is completely totalitarian, but their aim for the good will of the Nation, without needless democracy is _NOT_ evil or even slightly unpleasant."

Sorry, pal, but I've been so messed on politics that your argumentation just flashed like a mirror on my memories. I pushed up, a little bit, the arguments, but sincerly, it is almost the same wordings.

Have you forget the findings made by DoJ in the 90's?

> "I don't see noise directed against Apple or Linux or BSD, likely because they are {not monopolies | high enough in market share | something else that I can't grok}."

Why you want to see them? Apple is really a monopolistic granitic stubborn deadhead, but which has enough links to Open Source and independent developers to be out of oversight.

Linux? There are no problems here... Where you see a problem? There are tons of projects of every size, form, taste and possible genetic mutation. Even the word "pet" is hard to be used here. Yes, "Welcome to the Jungle". I'm quite happy on it, btw. 11 years on the row.

BSD? There are NO problems there. Absolutely NOT a SINGLE problem. They are not the Jungle. They are The Primordial Matter.

All problems are with one company that clearly and undoubtfully tried to kick every one out of its Empire. And I am not making up things. There are the DoJ and Eurocommission investigations for everyone to see.

Besides, problem is not pet projects. It's hypocrisy to compare OSes to Congressional Pork. Pork is bad because it's budget, real taxpayer money being eaten. However, an OS is something that is supposed to support a miryad of different programs, not matter their purpose, intention and necessity.

If it an OS does not do such a thing, then it is not an OS. It's a gamepad like Gamboy or Playstation. If Microsoft wants to produce gamepads, it shall stop claiming Windows is an Operating System.

Sorry but reminding of Milton Friedman on these days, it would be the same as advocating for Monarchy right after the American Revolution...

Yes, you may bash me that I am remarking that freedoms may be not so free. And you may keep yourself on Milton Friedman, while the Economy slumps under his theories.

But I do prefer a chance to have some other new and real freedoms tomorrow. And not being fed by the abstract, scholastic and spooky "Free to Choose" under the absolute totalitarian rule of Microsoft. Even if that means some lack of universal pluralism today.

Great discussion going on! Some good remarks, some so-so.

Let me note one thing to everyone. This is mostly a reflection on History and how it can apply to what we have here.

Ancient Greeks had the knowledge of the steam machine. Yes, we can say that they played with it as a toy and so on... But the problem is that they had not only the steam machine! They had all the basics to build machines, besides they were pretty advanced on using them as we know now. Not so long ago a very complicated machine was found that amazingly modelled the solar system. They were toys, but pretty elaborated toys.

Now we perfectly know that steam machines came up into life only in the XVII century. More, all the machinery stuff was mostly reinvented! We didn't know Greeks went that far until recent time.

Why?

Some people say that they, and Romans afterward, stuck to their "way of things" - slaves do the work, why we shall do something serious out of these machines? Why we need to substitute them for something... Better? Or worser? Or just different?

Now, they kept their society. Where is that society now, we perfectly know.

Is no one afraid, that sticking into the "way of things", we will just build our own doom? Yes, I know that it is hard to see the Future and probably no one of us will see the Avenge of Linux. Most probably there will never be such an avenge but someone will reinvent Linux on its basics. But, sincerly, I would prefer that even the basis for such things will never come into life! Because, if this happens, that will mean that we have choosen the most stupid historical path - no-way street.

Now I leave two questions for everyone here -

On trying to make a wholescale standard on Linux, aren't we burning bridges?

What do you prefer - an imperfect world and a future of Chance, or a perfect system and one-way to nowhere?

That's a pure twisted view of reality. First, the *nix environment was never supposed to go PC. Besides, the forkings were a pure necessity as you were dealing with systems for specific tasks. It was a hardware/software symbiosis and not selling computers to every freak on the street.

Windows came into force not because it was the attractive place to develop but the only one. IBM made a pretty good mess out of its OS/2 to be something workable for the lay user (not without the help of M$ btw).

Linux rose up in the end of the 90's, when Windows had the total and absolute monopoly on everything PC. So, in fact Windows IS loosing its position, not winning it. Yes, it lost 1%. But lost it and Linux is still here.

About binary compatibility... That's pretty heavy one. Frankly, have you ever used Linux in a working basis? I haven't had no binary compatibilities for years and I am a Linux user since 1998 (and admin since 1994). What compatibility are you talking about?

Really I don't use Windows anymore, except for some pretty rare games I play once in a while. But just an year ago I had to deal with a horrible mess on a Windows server. I was pretty amazed to see the same problems, the very old same way, as I saw several years ago - upgrade and we go boom.

I don't know, maybe Microsoft finally solved this 20-year old problem for the last year I have not been touching Windows? Really? I doubt.
 

The worst will be to excel on one and not be able to say a word on the other eight.

And even worser is not to be able to understand anything else, but only the excellence of the grammar in the language you believe to understand. Usually those who excel are even uncapable to understand dialects. You know how pretty is Jamaican English? Several years ago I could easily understand it. But, many english speakers don't make an idea of what Jamaicans say. Quite sad.

You living on Earth, not in Nutziland.

Sincerly, it seems I have been in a time machine for all these years.
Quite long ago I was an active ./'tter. Some 8-9 years ago. We had lots of FUD, Flood and Flame around here.
And you know what is the most strinkgly thing I see now. Entered time machine. BRRRRRRR. Zero... I'm exactly in the same place at the very same time I left.

Back then, there were already tons of people claiming the Hell and the Tartarus for the way Linux is built. Well, apart of remarking that Linux is JUST a kernel, let me mention a few things. Just as 9 years ago.

1. GTK, KDE and alikes are probably not ideal code. But they are two standards well fixed and working on Linux environment. Don't like them, push for YOUR standard. Don't like anything at all, gather your team and MAKE your standard. I AM a KDE fan, I LIKE KDE and have been using it since it was a raw alpha stuff. Now my friends at one work, where I was the all-power BOfH LOVED GTK/Gnome and could not see KDE by 2 thousand miles. And that's what is GREAT on Linux - there is a CHOICE!

2. I use KDE on most of my desktops. But on my Eee PC I use Enlightenment as it is much more economic and has all the resources I need there. I have also a Zaurus (Linux, of course) and a server without graphical BLOAT on it. I also have a router with Linux on it. Now., are you telling me that all this hardware will work perfectly under a "standard"? Aren't you telling me that if I will have ONE desktop, then every dumb programmer will demand that the graphic system shall be EVERYWHERE? Look, I know what programmers are and how many of them think, specially the IDE crowd. If this thing goes this way, I am pretty sure that we end in a all-embedded, full-featured, completely geekish MONOLITH. And then, problems will not be only compatibility. It will be price... And probably my Zaurus will have a few kilos more... Besides, what will be the difference from Windows?

3. Frankly, only a dodo doesn't know that problems exist on the development of many libraries. But, what is a community for? People this stuff works and it will work while there is a community. It is not just a question of volunteerism but self-discipline. While I have been pretty inactive for these last years, still, when something was real wrong, I would knock the bugtrackers and developers. And without this, there is NO Linux. There is a product. Want to use it? Great, consume it. But then, don't blame for the bloat, monolitics and managers believing they are masters of the Universe. If you want to turn Linux systems into pure consumer products, you will have to be bound into what the seller thinks is best for you, not the contrary. You have only two choices - you either accept it or not. Considering what happened in the past, with IBM, Apple and Microsoft, I believe that such environment on Linux will be pretty damaging. And, frankly, it makes me wonder why the whinning is coming from Google.

People, don't give your freedoms. I know it is quite spicy for me to say this, I am in no way an american patriot, but the America's Founding Fathers had some true words about "giving up Freedom".

On which of the languages I know?
Sorry, but sincerly, it is pretty hard to remember the grammar of some 9 languages I know. And I am not taking into account programming.

More. It is pain to take into account the grammar of each language, if you are reading almost simoultaneously three or four languages.

Yes, it's a handicap I cannot stick into a specific grammar. But I can read on several languages and write, in a possible comprehensible manner, on them.

Now I know several jerks who are too sticked to grammar, make a whole fuss out of it and are only able to create a complete nonsense out of a text. If I note that I had these cases on juridical documents, which decided will someone go to the gallows or not... I do prefer my horrible grammar.

ModDown offtopic but I get pretty mad when people try to teach grammar not by the error but by playing smarties.

Maybe I would recast it. Used for more than 11 years, last time two weeks ago...

Sincerly, if I well remember it was time limited, almost since the very beginning. If you remember the gratis version, then you are older than me :)
Anyway... Let me push my brains.... Eeeeee, pushing... There was a command line version that seemed to be wholly free. But as I was already a *nix master of Zen (ok, bash me), I didn't had such a need to use it. John the Ripper and others did much better on *nix and were much more stable, if my memory tells me correctly the story.

Anyway this was a great tool but a tool "on-the-fly". For me. I knew several people the used it systematically.

Why do you ask? For the Cow? Make some research. You are from an .edu...

I used it in on-the-fly tests. Sometimes it came with more than 80% of passwords being cracked in minutes. Yes, it is not optimal, it is a pure Windowzz program with some bloat inside, too much brute force and a pretty bad tendency to overload the system in certain occasions. For a fast check the tool was simply ideal.

Imagine that you have a major breakup inside a pretty critical place. Now people, as dumb as they usually are, claim everything but, it is not their fault. Don't go for John the Rippers & Co. They are for pretty serious stuff and less to check Windowzzz crappy systems. You have a job to do and it is not playing magick tricks on a circus. You pick up L0phtCrack and make some runs on the spot. And you come with a result that most passwords are "1234", others are not less smart and several people have no passwords at all. Particularly those same jerks where the break'in happened.

Half job done...