*seems* - is just ... seems :-). what is today doesn't warrant the tomorrow ... and this tomorrow looks gloom for tux as there is no tux without young, fresh blood ... i don't know on which planet u live but m$ moved strong on the enterprise development domain not only on the desktop - and on the desktop tuxi is and will be a no-no. there is no market dominance without the desktop ... rest is just silence ... in the last 7 years i haven't seen even one enterprise deployment on linux, all j2ee or .net was win server. on tux i seen only couple of crappy php sites, basta ... wake up, Johny the user-looser gives no crap on couple of supercomputers or what is running his 4x4 automatic guzzler ... what he cares is seeing his porn nice and smooth without the need to swear why his box doesn't play the latest f[u]c*katlon mpg ...

good, then go and live in a capitalist society with your proud attitude and see how can u make-it without the sell guys - the subject of the topic shows it - u can't, just like that. i would like seeing the it driven as an engineering field not as a market commodity - this was the idea i dreamed about when i went to uni - when win95 didn't existed yet - but billy and steve took it over and here we are - i was a big linux fan and still i am from an engineering perspective - but the tux as a commodity it is done. the capitalist society dynamics kicked its ass - maybe it will still make an impact in the societies where the NA capitalism is not well received/perceived - but not here, where the money are :-). for making the money showing attention/coming to u - u have to be a commodity - which the tux isn't anymore. M$ was extremely smart in the last decade leaving the tux/OS grow and make waves - has helped them loose the image of the unique Master Of Evil - now, they share the title together with Google, Oracle, IBM but what they gained - they show their products are a real commodity ppl buy for driving and getting done personal and biz tasks -and, for the last KO kick they can point the finger to the alternative. hasta la vista tux - without being happy about it, but really sad; the core ppl attitude did the damage, they didn't get it that after the initial enthusiasm and success for keeping the pace and continuous evolution just waiting for benevolent idealist contributors will not last long - they didn't got the ecosystem clues. who doesn't adapt - leaves the niche to the better adapted - this is the dinosaurs history.

gush, the wheel turned ... clearly u the young generation software/manager guy who learned about doin' aka *software engineering* with java summer camps ... the typical deviation strategy ... whatever ppl in mngmt layer would like to believe ... software engineering IS and WILL remain ... engineering ... which is HARD ... the rest is bullshit; quality, good and correct/expected behaving code comes from the hands of ppl ... if these ppl have to enslave for getting the job done - they will not be pleased and will deliver shit; others, will not care and will deliver it continuously for making the mngt guys - u - happy for one hour. of course, this can't live long - and it is obvious, just look at the statistics of enrollment in CS ... nobody buys anymore into the bullshit of the marketed cool profession as IT/Programmer ... other areas of engineering required many decades to mature and become established professions - the it biz steve jobs/bill gates style - tried to grow like the miracle kid. Learning a new language is not difficult - become really proficient on the platform is. Without showing proficiency in applying the language accordingly to the platform/domain&paradigm - knowing it is useless. I may know C/C++ as language perfectly - but without hands-on on platform/domain specific APIs/libs - is is useless; pretending that u do it just because ur code compiles at a certain point in time has no value as long as the same code is going to be a pain in the ass in long run just because u learned the lang over the night by googling and reading couple of mins some api hello world samples - it is the equivalent of masturbation - becomes addictive and makes u think u do it for real - but when u face the real challenge all u can deliver is just premature ejaculation ...

huh :-) - your answer proves my point - nothing makes me more happier - the same stereotype answer learned for counter attacking the point I support - how lame and standard, couldn't you find something new, not copied - always blame back the lazy programmer? Hehehe, i do programming since before C++ was born; till 2000 I did only C/C++ - I never touched VB or else; since 2000 I have Java on my baggage and since 2005 I do equally well C#. I guided my fellow students who where not very skilled at getting the guts of the code - and now I'm a proud father of two. I see the evolution of the profession for almost 20 years - and, I see the job requirements of today comparing with what was not so long ago - 5,6 years. in the name of the business streamlining - which, of course, I bet you are a big fan, the demands have become crazy; just look on monster - most of the programmer jobs require all possible major programming languages(Java/C#/C/C++/VB) and domain specific (SQL/JavaScript) plus a gazillion of frameworks and platforms; all the friends I have in the industry curse when hear about letting their children follow in the steps - and I'm with them; If you go to a hospital for a brain tumor surgery would you like to have the manager assigning an orthopedist to do it just because they streamline, or to have the same surgeon doing two or three operations - maybe different at thee same time? Or, supposedly you are charged with crime and the death penalty expects you but the judge tells you that in the name of the streamlining a tax-law lawyer is going to take care of your case - and of course, they going to proceed at the same processes in parallel with other 2 convicted? Give me a break, go and smoke your management bonus, or enjoy alone at the pub your salary - your position shows obviously you are not doing programming for a living for a family with children. Does Java have pointers? How does .NET compare with Java in method arguments passing? How about C++ virtual functions vs anonymous classes in Java or delegates in .NET? Is OOP inheritance supported in JavaScript? What is the difference between the RModel and OOP paradigms? Can you answer these questions in 1 min without googling? Of course - it is rhetoric - I can never check if you did it or not.

see, obviously you are just a manager who thinks he knows programming - your argumentation is typical, like copy and paste of the code, I seen it multiple times for many years :-); just comparing the amount of information and the absorption speed and effort required from a programmer with the same process required from a professional in the fields of medicine, law or auto mechanic points to it; there is nothing to compare here. only looking into the dynamics of the fields is sufficient to see why there is no comparing. This is what makes programming unique in this regard. I don't argue about the need to learn - it is normal and expected, I argue about using the process of learning as an excuse to overwork the employees for hitting the maximum bang with no other consequences but negative for them: burning, family and social ties rupture, health damages - mental and physical etc. You can fight how much you want and have time on this thread, but this is not going to change the reality; the outside world knows already enough about the abuse in this industry and very few youngsters in North America - less and less, are going to take the school and enter the field. for sure, for some time the need will be covered with young slaves in the modern colonies of Asia, but this one too is not going to last for long time when the society will become rich enough so that the youngsters will find other niches where they will fell more inclined to take on :-). Medicine, law - and even auto industry engineering have a long existence and life because they promise long term vision for their professionals - which is not the case for IT, and this makes it doomed if no change will be adopted.

Gosh, this is long ... in the real world nobody is going to buy the time to argue about it :-). you can live with it, but the consequences will be against the scope :-), the reality shows it - myself I would like to live in a world where developers are all humble, clear minded and hard working guys - but it is not like this unfortunately and it is a sad experience for me too, but I learned to live with it so that I can move my agenda further :-) otherwise my scope will fall and I will be nothing else but the rude nerd nobody wants to work with me :-)

Foolish is to compare any other profession in sense of the keep-up effort with the programming domain. just give me a single example where the domain change is so heterogeneous and fast paced as the IT/programming is and would suffice. exactly because of this crazy fast paced change rate the cheapest solution for the employers is to switch the onus on the employee. of course, only the very young ones without any social commitments besides themselves or the same category but seasoned ones or the ones ignoring these commitments will make it - but for the other ones is a discriminatory practice.

Well, this forever-enslaved profile maybe was appealing to you and somehow you got the smell of it early - but this is particular to you; the never getting bored factor is attractive as long as at some age it doesn't come in conflict with other social responsibilities you naturally get into like a family, children etc. And for sure many programmers do the coding with pleasure and are learning new things with the same pleasure - but are not pleased when they are forced to do it at the detriment of their personal and family life. Me and for sure others have an opposite understanding of what a salary is and for sure is not *that ANY salary position means you'll be expected to get the job done regardless of how many hours it takes*. This is just dumb, have you ever seen a lawyer or a doctor doing it? This is sweatshop mentality. Your whole posting smells of the hidden message that you represent exactly the ones enslaving the coders and you outline your expected submissive attitude towards your wealth creation process. If the industry silently promotes antisocial personalities of obsessive, compulsive workaholics - this is discrimination toward the other ones and a strong case for review by the work legislation .

see, this is the problem - and I have to acknowledge that I did the same mistake myself many times - you develop a long, logical argumentation for defending your scope; this is just useless in the real world - you still remain with the RUDE stamp for ever after; the best strategy is - just don't do it, or accept that you will pay the consequences :-).

Socially wrong - and you just don't see it - even now; however right you are from a nerdy point of view - for the outside world you are the RUDE ASSHOLE if you behave like that even if the right answer is typed HUGE AND CLEARLY ON THE FIRST LINE OF THE ONLINE HELP :-) - yeah I yelled :-). I am a programmer and I feel piss off till the verge of my fingers when the dumbest question hits my ear but I don't forget that being rude doesn't change something positively for anybody but for sure is changing me being perceived as a rude asshole. If we thought that programming is holy art where only enlightened monks will read its secret codices between the walls of monastery and practice its rituals hidden by the stupid, not smart enough ordinary ones - we doomed ourselves. This attitude dissociates socially - and we see it; this is what give success to Microsoft and took it from IBM & Co. This is the result of a fake elite industry where the lucky ones with a tremendous genetic baggage, the powerful social connections and historically timed decisions got the control of it. This poisoned the industry with the spirit of being god-like and disrespecting the mortals - guess what, the mortals kill rude gods who don't fit their needs; the history is plenty of examples - but it requires to read history too and not only computer books and code for getting to it.

that's all folks - the youngsters are much more socially connected and skilled than we were at their age; also, they get the clue of the social context much better than we did 15 years ago. And what they see is a career in an unregulated domain, totally havoc and chaotic, where the abuse and the overwork is the norm. there is no career path marks to follow and nobody can tell you where you going to be in 2 or 3 years. A continuously changing professional knowledge baggage is not attractive, its consequence is obvious - your whole time life should be allocated for keeping up. The dreamland of computing is not anymore there - the harsh reality has taken its place and young people are not stupid; they want to be able to enjoy their life normally instead to enslave to the corporate. 15 years ago the Linux and the Open Source was started with lots of fuel from people keeping strong to a beautiful idealism - this is gone; they are not to blame - myself I have respect for a generation who has the power of the dignity and the will to say NO! STOP! this is my life! - we should all do the same.If a profession takes away your life - forget it, it's just not wort it.

Nothing unexpected ... as more power you have less fear you have about the consequences of getting caught lying; also, the ethical and moral burden is not anymore an issue as we are brain washed for decades that lying is the normality when the liar must show leadership or has political reasoning. So, welcome to the future where things are well established that the ones owning the power will own it and pass it to the ones they will choose as fit to perpetuate the same status quo. Hooray to the glory of the North American Bison Citizen ...

Well said; agree totally,

You are right; apologize for making the socialism sound like the klu-klux-klan scary crow - there is nothing wrong with it but in the head of the purportedly ultra-ego-centric-brain-washed-NA-bison voter. Mental sick people can't see how important is mental health for them :-)

hihihi, me too ... but not for so much, just 8 :-); also, some more than 5 on US before Germi; I think I had a grasp of both of them quite deep :-)