I think someone erred and the first line should read something like "Forbes journalists writes..." rather than "jahard writes". Unless of course user jahard is the same person as the Forbes reporter, in which case disregard. But being the penultimate Google "Hater", I figured I'd take the time to spill some of that deserved hate on /., if appropriate.

agree, strongly. Thanks for the vocalizing of the issue which has been remarkably off the public debate radar for the last 10 years.

agree again.

Well, I guess I addressed them by agreeing with them. And I think the emphasis of my remaining 'criticism' here (other than being a Google critic for network neutrality hypocrisy[1]), is that I find enlightening the recent lawsuits against android manufacturers that they patch or replace known insecure consumer mobile phones in operation. That issue, and at least what makes it a real issue even if you disagree with the prescribed solution, is a big deal. And Google Glass is just a little I/O attachment for mobile phones. Bluetooth headset +video in/out. Ok, whatever.

[1] http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3643919&cid=43438341

Ok, let's do this-

Google is only paying lip service to 'garage internet startups' - http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3106555&cid=41288357

This issue to me, is about what an average, er, *every* average joe should be able to expect from something sold as an "internet service". I believe it means the full use of the *symmetric* nature of the Internet Protocol (v6 as advertised here).

Uhh... right, yeah, both those things sound pretty insane and in need of sanity rewriting to me (as you described them).

This is the kind of line I might expect to hear from Google's defense lawyers. But it is stupid if you actually read it as something purporting to be a logical sentence. I.e. it is *precisely* the legalistic nature of the USA that gives everyone involved *countless* methods of fallback if someone is enganging in using the network in an obviously abusive manner. I've heard defenses that complain about making it easier to set up phishing fake sites. I.e. my own paypal website with the content copied to my own apache server and malicious code added. You know what laws that violates? Fraud. Logo/trademark. Copyright. And probably no less than a dozen others. It is purely insane to suggest that cutting off the power of hosting servers/services to the vast class of internet users known as residential users is the only way to deal with such things. Again, it is *precisely* the legalistic nature of the USA that makes such a "No Server" clause as the only claimed solution to those issues, INSANE!!!

translation: protecting against DDoS on the internet is hard. real solution: by making the problem of DDoSd servers something that can happen to everyone interested in hosting a server, not only a minute fraction of people, more effective mitigation and prevention means will be engineered. Every existing server (and there are lots of them) suffer from this same threat, and their upstream ISPs have to deal with this. I genuinely don't believe that this is such an untractable problem of the day to day internet, that it's only solution is to cut off the empowering ability to host servers/services from the vast class of internet end points known as "residential users" Or again, regular people like you and me and the other 7 billion of us on the planet.

If the ISP has to drop traffic to your/my IP until the DDoS subsides because it is technically unable to do anything else, so be it. I'll use my time offline to contact the FBI and ask them what cybersecurity national resources they may have that might be interested in testing their abilities against my ongoing attackers. Hell, there might even be some google and microsoft engineers that are friends of friends of mine that might be looking for a network security challenge. So in other words, this is a non-issue if residential server hosters are willing to accept such a worst case scenario (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about the same as the worst case scenario for any of the millions of server running 'business class' ISP customers out there right now?)

This particular "legal safety net" (euphamism for "blatantly exagerated blanket prohibition of activity because a narrower prohibition would require some time and thought).... This particular "legal safety net" simply has TOO HIGH A COST against the productive opportunities that IPv6 presents to society. In my opinion.

I'm sorry, are you describing an ISP that is offering a service called "you get dedicated bandwidth", without actually having any technical ability to deliver that to the customer? And you want me to feel sorry for them? It's like, what would the world come to if internet service was instead of misadvertised, actually advertised as the "best effort" service it actually is, and was designed to be. I'm sorry, but, removing bullshit illusions from the masses that fraudulent advertisers have spent years deploying is something I remain unafraid to do.

If an "internet service provider" changes something on their network (e.g. adds an unnecessary NAT or firewall) that breaks the "internet users" from being able to "use" the *symmetric nature* of the "internet protocol"(v6 as advertised here), then I consider it fraudulent of them to continue to claim that they are providing "internet service"). "Internet Service" has a meaning. It means a service using the "internet protocol". Which was designed to be fully symmetric, as far as allowing each and every endpoint on the global information superhighway the ability to connect to every other (willing) node. If you use the internet at work, and the IT staff has blocked certain flows of traffic with the wider internet, you have a "restricted internet access". I am fighting for the right of average joe users to have, *at least the opt-in option* of having the immensely empowering thing known as "unrestricted internet access" at their home. I believe such will allow newer more advanced, more privacy protecting, less advertising infused, services to become available to humanity. Please, don't regurgitate bullshit to me that the existing lazy ass, competition stagnating, ISPs have been selling you for the last decade. Join me in fighting for "The Right To Serve" (via IPv6 enabled residential 'true' internet access). Please.

You had me till

and

This is the logic that the ISP oligarchy would like to sell the masses on why things _have_(?!?) to be the way they are. These are obviously fallacious comments. Yes Google, if you defended yourself like this, I would simply call you god-damned liars.

There are many other legal methods of recourse an ISP (or *cough* the department of justice of the U.S.A.) has to deal with "obviously abusive" internet users, or DDoS attacks. Don't give me this bullshit about the only method of recourse being effectively shutting down the core _symmetric_ nature of the internet protocol to the vast swath of nodes known as "residential users". Which means "ordinary people, human beings like you and me, using the global information superhighway to communicate and conduct business with friends and neighbors across the globe".

That would be like outlawying knives as eating utensils, because it was the only way the authorities could fight the threat of stabbings.

And in this case, the reason the ISPs are trying to sell this line, is because they are entirely buddy buddy with the established form of the internet, and it's established moneymaking servers. And IPv6 and residentially hosted servers, are a very real, and I would say long awaited, threat to that established set of business models. You can call me delusional, insane, paranoid. But that is what I believe to be the real issue here.

First, they already offer business service, though not "transparently". I.e. you must "call them for details". I actually think this is a violation of network neutrality's "transparency" prong, and that all traffic rates should be well known and published "transparently". Next, no, I do not expect 24/7 or greater uptime than my other residential neighbors get. But there is a lot you can do with an internet connection with 95% uptime and a gigabit link. If residential users could expect such unblocked actual symmetric client/server internet (protocol, version 6) access from their ISP, then I do foresee servers of much consequence, even on mere 97% uptime links. Finally, your point about Google's selective enforcement, is the icing on the anti-competitive practice here. I see the term of service as their way to prevent residentially hosted servers that might ultimately adequately compete with their existing services (e.g.g squirrelmail open source webmail vs gmail).

what the person may have meant was that just as perhaps their linksys wrt54g running openwrt can be an interesting, if not slashdot-proof scale web server for some interesting amount of content, so too could pretty much everyone's firewall and router, if the source was available for aspiring FOSS coders to similarly enhance. Then, the way you get slashdot-proofness and no dependency on >95% uptime SLA and support from your non-business-class ISP contract, is by pooling and sharing your resources with countless other residential user's wall-warts/routers.

This is what I was really hoping, but sadly discovered that their initial terms of service prohibited all residential customers from hosting any kind of server. While this is not exactly unexpected, I do consider it a violation of FCC-10-201/NetNeutrality's "blocking" prong. Though traditionally that is understood as residential ISPs blocking a residential client from a remote server, I also believe it applies to the symmetric use of IPv6, i.e. remote clients blocked from residential servers. My FCC 2000F complaint (ref#12-C000422224-1) is currently in "Enforcement review" after 7 months of getting bounced to the Kansas Attorney General who just bounced it back to the quite slow to respond FCC.

Anyway, until we can get some sort of residential internet users bill of rights for what they can expect from their bridge to the global information superhighway, I don't think we'll see remotely the advances in new services that we otherwise would.

$0.02...

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3503531&cid=43033891

If all you want out of your symmetry is to upload large videos to youtube and other established players, then yes, it is symmetric. If however you want to use your upstream bandwidth to, say, do the first thing that should come to most slashdot reader's minds- run a server providing your own alternate services to Google's cloud offerings, then you are *squarely* out of luck. Because GoogleFiber is same as the old boss- hosting any kind of server is prohibited. Using the service for business requires you contact them for non-transparent pricing 'details' (aka, their calculated level of 'tribute'). (as if trading your visual attention (reading GoogleAds) for advanced computing services (youtube/gmail/etc) is not 'business')

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3503531&cid=43033891

Public Service Announcement: Google Fiber requires you contact them for 'details' if you intend to use the service for a business. I believe this is in violation of FCC-10-201 'Network Neutrality' transparency. Of course I'm more concerned with their terms of service prohibitting hosting any server of any kind, as I consider that a violation of the blocking prong of the Network Neutrality rules (though the case of the residential client blocked from the remote server is the more common understanding of the blocking rule). In any event, for 7 and a half months now, I have had an outstanding NN(form 2000F) complaint with the FCC (ref#12-C000422224). It is currently in "enforcement review" after having been bounced once to the Kansas Attorney General who was not interested in pursuing the matter, though referred me back to the FCC for help. I think it is important to realize how google is participating in a widespread practice of disempowering residential internet users from the ability to provide traditionally unforseen and innovative services to the rest of the internet, in order to protect the established players (cough *them* cough) existing moneymaking servers from new competition, enabled by such advancements as the IPv6 solution to the scarce IP address problem. In fact, if you follow enough of my information warfare links here, you'll find that Google's CEO even agrees with me fairly strongly, but is apparently content to let the lawyers dictate the shape of Google's Gigabit residential internet of the near future. So be it.

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3503531&cid=43033891

John Galt is a fictional protagonist from Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, who would probably defend leisse fairre (sp?) cartel style intra-corporate collusion in cases such as this. Even if the 'exploited' class was say, of a specific race or gender etc, instead of high-tech workers here. The theory being that somehow in the big big ol picture, the system of self motivated parts would punish such non-optimal strategies. OTOH, Galt was somewhat conflicted, because despite being such an advocate, he basically came to the conclusion that the established system was so corrupt, it should be allowed to collapse upon itself while he and a community of friends went off and started an isolated pre/beginning-industrial microsociety. And then at some point, he follows his true love back into the wider world, which attempts to crucify, er... electrocute-torture (that 'vietnam' gitmo related technique?) him to death.

I used to be a serious Rand inspired capitalistic zealot. As I got older and saw leisse-fairre capitalistic intracorporate collusion at great scales potentially threatening classes of people by race, gender, professional-field, etc, I tend to be closer to a U.S. democrat. But it's still a great book and character. But it's a lot more complex and worthy of study than 'sociopath' suggests.

Note well that GoogleFiber also is well entrenched into the EVIL "business class" service tactics. Never mind that users at home VPN-ing into work, or trading their visual attention (aimed at google ads) for advanced computing services (gmail, ghangouts, et al) are clearly engaged in "business". I tend to believe that Google Fiber's current published FAQ that has business clients "contact us for details", instead of transparently publishing consistent data rates and prices, is in clear violation of the transparency prong of FCC-10-201/NetworkNeutrality. I also believe that their current terms of use barring any residential user from hosting any kind of server is a clear violation of the blocking prong of NetworkNeutrality (though somewhat in inverse of the way network neutrality is most commonly thought. I.e. blocking of services by residential ISPs can happen in both ways, the residential client blocked from the remote server, or the remote client blocked from the residential server. cuz like, ya know, the internet was like, designed to be symmetrical where every node could behave as both client *and* server.... So in the end Google gets to have its cake and eat it too hypocritically with network neutrality. Sigh.... I'm less than entirely hopeful that my current complaint (2000F) about this with the FCC (ref#12-C000422224-1) will come to anything when it finally emerges from the "enforcement review" procedural step it is in. But who knows...

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3503531&cid=43033891

IPv6, at least as it was taught to me in my computer engineering degree, was about several things, though the most prominent is simply the transitioning from 32 bit to 128 bit addresses, thus making IP addresses not a scarce resource. That sounds good to me. In fact I eagerly awated it for a decade such that it would allow me to run, e.g. a quake3 video game server at home, without any valid reason for my "Internet Service Provider" to complain. Of course when Google was my first ISP offering residential IPv6, I pretty much had my brain explode when their terms of service stated that all residential users were prohibited from running any server of any kind. If you've got an alternate arcitecture that would allow me to run a quake3 videogame server on my residential internet access, I'm all ears. Because, while some of the things you say sound crazy, some of them sound smart enough to warrant closer attention.

note that parent author isdnip wrote this choice comment last year-

"No, NAT will not die. NAT is a good idea, not a bad one. Virtually everyone uses firewalls nowadays, most of which do NAT, which adds a level of security (not enough by itself, but it helps).

It is a critical flaw in TCP/IP architecture that the application translates the name to the address and sees the IP address. And there's never a good reason for applications to have numeric IP addresses inside them. NAT only breaks broken applications. IPv6 is Just Plain Stupid. It's ugly and it wants to die. And it will. The people who are pushing it are the kind of people who seek out authority in order to obey it blindly."

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2901899&cid=40251831

In my book, the current most illuminating issue is my quixotic battle with Google Fiber over IPv6 based home servers. I think this is a core aspect of "Net Neutrality" that videogame enthusiasts should help spread the word about. The fact is, that the FCC's 2010 "Report and Order Preserving The Open Internet" (FCC10-201), actually, if read technically, does apply to home videogame servers, as well as all of Google and other established player's servers. But Google and the established players know there is a crapload of their existing cloud business turf that they need to protect against the wave of home serving that IPv6 can finally enable.

Google and the FCC (and the Kansas Attorney General) have ignored my complaint (FCC REF#12-C000422224) for 6 months now, and somehow hearing this news does not give me hope for my cause in the short term. Which is why I'm focusing my efforts on information warfare to educate people about how the current manor in which net neutrality is being enforced, primarily only helps hypocrites on the issue like Google. Larry Page, if the slashdot AC's story is to be believed[1], is an especially open hypocrite on this issue (since allegedly, he is the one in charge).

[1] http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3106555&cid=41288357

full saga/manifesto- http://cloudsession.com/dawg/downloads/misc/kag-draft-2k121007.pdf (lulu.com/cx1 preview feature has the submitted 53 page version)

There is a large part of my soul that senses truth in your sentiment. But... then I remember that 2008 saw the election of the first non-white-male US president in history. It is a damn shame that all the other orwellian shit that 9/11 and ?republicans? spawned, hasn't been rolled back by Obamo. Or even just the simple following through of Obama's day 1 signed pledge to close GITMO within a year. Of course that last one was patently obvious bullshit to me as soon as I saw the year deadline. If it was going to be closed because it was an ethically, strategically, and morally reprehensible state of our union, it would have happened the instant someone who thought that assumed a position with the power to do it. And don't tell me that closing something that was unconstitutionally created requires congressional approval. That, is the joke of the modern injustices. But remember kids, we got our first non-white-male president. That was the grand bargain. It almost warms my soul that both the person I'm replying to, and much of my own soul, can almost lose sight of that. I hope it's worth living in a torture and surveillance age. Maybe it is. We'll see.