Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!


Forgot your password?

Comment Re:AMD slower / MHz (Score 1) 271

Uhhh...who is having to buy new PSUs and coolers? I bought a bigger PSU not because of the CPU, but because I wanted the option to run dual GPUs down the road and its pretty damned hard to find a PSU under 600w that supports dual PCI-E connectors.

As for the CPU cooler it worked fine, I sold it with an Athlon X4 OEM that I picked up to build a box with, the only reason i went with the Hyper N520 is I LIKE the N520, it is very compact, small enough to fit into a mATX case, yet its quiet enough and cools well enough that I can toss having an exhaust fan and just use the N520. again i didn't HAVE to, the default cooler that comes with the chip works great, i just prefer having heatpipes on my system.

The simple fact is for less than the cost of a gimped Pentium Dual you can get an X4 that WILL beat it in most tests, will only set you back $67 and makes a great basis for a multimedia or even gaming box which you can have for less than the cost of an i3 and board. hell spend just $7 more and you can have 6Mb of cache which isn't a great help in gaming but is nice if you are transcoding, or if you really feel like splurging spend a whole $89 and get an unlocked 6 core which is great for multitasking. Hell just $250 after MIR will get you a whole 6 core system, just slap on the OS and go to town.

I can't do the math for you since i don't know how much electricity costs there but before i bought my 1035T I did the math for mine and the difference in price between the X6 system and the lowest Intel X4 with equal specs would have taken at least 7 years for the difference in electricity to come out in favor of Intel. Over the life of the system you MIGHT save enough to go out for pizza, MAYBE. I'm sorry but unless you are one of those rare people that push a machine to the bleeding limit the math just doesn't work in Intel's favor, sorry.

Comment Re:Insurance Policy? (Score 1) 293

Not to mention there is a pretty big fucking difference between the cops finding a single JPG in a web browser cache and the fact that you have a 1.7 FRICKING TB PILE sitting right there on your hard drive, don't ya think?

Again it just shows that if you could turn stupidity like the guy above you into electricity? We'd solve the energy crisis tomorrow. I mean this is "getting into a van with a stranger that offers candy" levels of dumbshit, you don't know this guy from the man in the moon, in fact ALL we know about the guy is that he has done several website break ins, so obviously what the law thinks about what he is doing is not something he gives a rat's ass about, yet he is gonna blindly trust to download 1.7TB from this guy, sight unseen, and store it for this fucker just because he SAYS its something good, and he thinks it MIGHT piss off some guy he don't even know who doesn't give a shit about him and whom he never met?

There is stupid and then there is people that need to be kept from breeding because they are the piss in the gene pool, that dumbass is squarely in the latter.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 1) 271

But they already have not one but two products that ARE good, they have Bobcat/Jaguar and they have Liano, and they also have the design for Stars and they have the K8.

The smart move would be to start cranking out Jaguar, Liano, and if its gonna take more than a year to get the new design up use the Stars design because the BD/PD design is expensive as hell and ends up with too many bad chips per run. I don't know if you know this but with that last Thuban chip they had the ENTIRE desktop market able to be covered by a single chip, giving them pretty much 100% yields which made those chips easily the most profitable they had made. If it came out very fast? it was a high end Thuban, those that didn't pass but had 6 good cores were the lower SKUs, if it had a bad core? it was a Phenom X4, bad cache? it was an Athlon X4. As a bonus it gave the value gamers a BIG reason to buy their chips because you had a damned good chance of getting a core unlock so even their lowest SKUs were selling briskly. Hell go look up the Sempron single and see how many bought it just to see if they could unlock to an X2!

This would give them Bobcat for embedded and cheap tablets, Jaguar for low end notebooks and convertibles, Liano for the midrange, and Stars for the desktop value to low midrange since they really don't have a high end chip that can compete. then just as Intel went back to the P3 mobile to make the Core design they could go back to the Athlon64 which was a great chip and with a little tweaking and the smaller processes it would probably be pretty damned competitive. But trying to throw good money after bad by sticking with a design that runs so hot and scores so poorly?

You can't stay in business if the product you are selling costs more for you to make than what people are willing to pay and the amount of bad chips they get with the BD/PD design means to make a profit they have to keep the price of the chips waaay too high. Up until the release of Bulldozer AMD pretty much owned all the "best CPU" lists in the under $200 market which is a pretty damned big market, after they phased out Stars for the BD/PD design? They haven't won a single slot, not one, even the sub $100 chip is now an Intel.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 1) 271

But again you are slapping ever bigger engines in a Pinto, you CAN NOT fix a design as broken as the P4, okay? I mean for fucks sake don't you think that Intel didn't want to piss away all the damned money they had spent on dies and design work for the P4? Of course they didn't but they realized that the entire design was a dead end and couldn't be saved.

The ONLY way your hypothetical chip could work would be if they threw away every defining characteristic of the P4...but it wouldn't be a P4 then, would it? The P4 was designed like a muscle car, big ass pipes, lots of cache, sheer brute force...and it didn't work! You really need to look closely at the P4 arch friend, there was A REASON why they kept adding bigger and bigger AND BIGGER caches to it, its because a cache miss was a fricking train wreck with a pipeline that long, the damned thing will stall every time you turn around, there is a reason why they went back to a pipeline that was less than half that of the P4, its because long pipeline chips don't fucking work well man!

Seriously do some research on the history of the P4, especially the last couple of years. Look at tejas, which was a reported 6Ghz P4 they had running in the lab, ready for the fab...they threw away ALL that work, why? With tejas they had a chip that was nearly 2.4Ghz faster than anything on the market! The answer was simple, with such a huge fricking pipeline that 6Ghz meant jack and shit and even with them putting a monster cache and cranking the living shit out of the speed they just couldn't fix what at its core was a fundamental flaw of the P4, the huge pipelines required to get it to scale.

Again we are seeing the exact same thing at AMD, only for them while Intel was all about speed above all for AMD its cores above all, but to squeeze that many cores per die and not have the chips be the size of a pack of smokes they had to primitive the shit out of the design,leaving pretty much only a primitive integer core with all the front end being shared between core modules...again it just doesn't work, they can crank the living fuck out of the clocks until hell freezes over, they WILL be curbstomped by the Intel and this is from somebody that builds AMD exclusively but I know a turkey when i see one, the P4 was a turkey and the BD/PD arch is a turkey.

Comment Re:Genius judge (Score 1) 540

Uhhh...yay? If you are using them for glorified grunt work (which more and more seems to be the case) then frankly internships SHOULD die out. I mean for the love of Pete even those being trained under the Guild system got enough to fricking survive on while they learned the trade, all the new style internships do is make sure that only those with daddy's CC, who can afford to work for nothing for several years, need apply and that shit stinks.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 1) 271

Yeah it would look different...PCs would be the size of fridges to hold the giant AC unit needed to cool that sucker! And nothing in your argument changes the fact that if you take the most powerful P4 and then increase its marks just as if you had increased it to 10Ghz you would still be scoring LOWER than 35w chips do today.

When you are scoring a shitastic 440 marks at 3.6Ghz magically cranking that chip to 10Ghz isn't gonna give it 10,000 marks, its gonna give it 4 times what it is now which would be around 1350 marks. You are falling for the old MHz myth that raw GHz means shit when it don't, if you managed to get a Pentium 1 up to 20Ghz that wouldn't magically make it do more useful work than a C2Q even though the C2Q would only be running at 1/4th the speed because the C2Q would do more work per cycle than that hyper pumped P2 could EVER do. Again look at the links yourself, look up the Pentium EE chips, those were "golden chips" that were hand picked to be the absolute cream of the crop, the absolute best the P4 had to offer. How did they score? Worse than the chip in my netbook, and that is while belching out over 150w of heat.

Your argument basically boils down to "if you put a big enough motor in it a Pinto could outpull a pickup" while ignoring that there is a lot more to pulling than the motor. The insanely long pipeline made stalls a nightmare for the P4, it cranked out waste heat like you wouldn't believe, and the IPC on it was truly pathetic. You say it isn't fair to compare it to a modern chip? fine compare it to a chip from its time, the Athlon 3800 X2 on this chart. Notice how the P4 based chips are using damned near more power idling than the X2 did under full load? The IPC on those chips are just fricking terrible, I should know as I have one at the shop and its sooo damned sluggish and hot that I'm seriously thinking about replacing this Pentium D with a circa 2004 Sempron single core until I can get another Bobcat board in because the Sempron? actually more snappy than the Pentium D.

So I'm sorry friend but unless you think Intel could come up with some pixie dust to sprinkle on each P4 the extra GHz would have translated into a shitload of heat, useful work? Not so much. BTW just running that Pentium D running ONLY a browser for a couple of hours, even with flash blocked? Its at 143f and as i said it struggles with page loads worse than that old Sempron, its just not a good chip, the whole line just sucked.

Comment Re:Hooray for the PC market! (Score 1) 223

What they are calling a "tablet" is a convertible X86 which I'm sorry but that IS a PC. It runs on X86, uses X86 OSes, its just in a different form factor. if you wanted to get that pedantic we'd need separate categories for all in ones, carputers, mini PCs, etc.

As for the whole retarded "The PC is dying ZOMFG!" lets get one thing straight okay? Does everyone say "ZOMFG the housing market is dying, nobody will buy teh houses ever again!" because the housing BUBBLE burst? of course not, that would be stupid. So why is anybody listening to these idiots when from 93-07 the PC market was having a bubble brought about by the MHz wars? The ONLY reason why people were getting rid of their PCs every 3 years is because a 3 year old PC would struggle badly to run then current software. Okay....is that the case now? 3 years ago I was selling Phenom and Athlon triples with a minimum of 3Gb of RAM and a 400Gb HDD...will that struggle to run the latest software? NO! Hell the laptops I was selling 3 years ago were Turion X2s and C2Ds with a couple of GB of RAM and 160GB+ HDDs, more than enough to run what most folks run when they are mobile!

So can we PLEASE stop running articles by morons that couldn't tell their asshole from an iPhone that say "ZOMFG teh PC is dying ZOMFG!" because it is absolute and total BULLSHIT, I have YET to meet a single person that has gotten rid of their PCs for a fucking Android or iPhone or some shitty tablet, the ONLY reason they aren't buying like before is the BUBBLE BURST when they switched from MHz wars to core wars and PCs quickly went from "fast enough" to "How in the hell am I ever gonna stress this thing" when it comes to raw performance. Hell I got one customer doing advanced 3D robotic parts design in Solidworks on a Phenom I X3 he got off me in 09, it works fricking great. The print shop across the street who is having to manipulate these huge images, edit them, and run them through their printers? the secretaries are running Athlon X2s i built, the print guys are running Phenom I X4s, and they are happy as clams with the performance.

The PC market is NOT dying, people are NOT tossing their PCs to fondle some iToy, they simply have soooo much power that nothing they do can stress what they have. The smart ones are doing like me and showing folks both new roles for PCs, such as HTPCs which with so many choices of entertainment on the net are getting REAL popular around here, and by showing businesses how they can save money by throwing out the older power hogs for PCs that use less power, such as all the late model P4s and Pentium Ds I've been changing out for AMD Bobcats, they get better performance than the P4 while having a passively cooled system that uses less under full load than the P4 did at idle.

The PC is going NOWHERE, these idiots just don't know how in the hell to judge the data without their iToys bitchslapping them with the info.

Comment Re:AMD slower / MHz (Score 1) 271

How so? The highest wattage of any part I named is 95w and since they all have C&Q they are all gonna use far less on average. As far as PSU I only have a 600W and the only reason i went that big is that my board supports Crossfire so I wanted to have that option down the road but i could have easily went with a 400w for this X6, maybe less. Finally as for cooling I always use hyper N520s so that wouldn't change no matter what chip i used.

The ONLY way the Intel works out to be a better deal is if and ONLY if you are doing a task that requires so much IPC that nothing less than the fastest possible chip will do, like the guy that was on here the other week doing impact simulations for guard rails. In that case he actually does need the fastest possible chip he can get because he is using every cycle for his work, but for the other 90% of the population that aren't slamming their CPUs to the absolute limit for 8 hours a day? Then even that 65w Athlon X4 will work just fine and you could build a whole system for less than an i3 dual core system with less memory, HDD space, etc.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 1) 271

Again sure if you took say the Pentium D EE and used a bad enough cooler you could get up to 6GHz plus, but how much useful work would you get for that heat? To use a /. car analogy it doesn't matter if you have an engine that can take a high redline if the transmission doesn't turn those revs into speed. I mean look at this comparison using the Pentium 4 661, which was one of the fastest P4 chips they made that wasn't an extreme. You see that C60 that scores 2 marks higher? That is a 1GHz netbook chip that uses a grand total of...9 watts. A 9 watt netbook chip scores higher than one of the fastest MHz P4s that was ever made.

So I'm sorry but reaching 10GHz really wouldn't help when the IPC is THAT bad, if the passmark stayed relative to speed you'd be scoring around 1300 marks at 10Ghz, which would be equal to a 4 year old Athlon X2 at a blistering...2.5Ghz. This is the same problem that AMD is now suffering from, their BD/PD design just doesn't have good IPC and cranking up the speed is just gonna bring it from bad to okay, and the amount of heat you'll have to deal with really isn't worth it.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 1) 271

Wow, a 4 digit...didn't know any of you guys were still around ;-)

But in this case you are wrong ancient one, and here is why: Like the BD/PD design the netburst design had a fundamental flaw, in the case of netburst it was that long ass pipeline that made stalls nasty and the fact that the chip never had great IPC to begin with. I mean you can take pretty much any of the Pentium D 8xx chips and hit 4GHz and yet a C2D clocked at less than half of that will curbstomp it and in the case of the i3s it'll curbstomp it while using less under load than the 8xx used at idle.

You see what Intel found out was that raw clocks for clocks sake meant jack and shit if that high clock didn't translate into useful work, or IPC, and the cost of power and cooling to those monsters got to the point people didn't want 'em. Not that I can blame 'em, i have a Pentium D 805 running in the shop while I decide whether its worth the trouble to try to find a socket AM2 board for this ULV Athlon X2 or to say fuck it and just get a Bobcat board and the damned thing will often hit over 143f on light loads and idles at 135f So having the Pentiums hit higher clocks really wouldn't have helped, the design was flawed to begin with. if you don't believe me starmicro has the Pentium D Extreme Editions for $75, grab one of those suckers and a hell of a cooler and you'll probably hit 5.5Ghz...and still get curbstomped by a 3GHz i series or Phenom II X2, because without the IPC to back it up the clock doesn't mean shit.

That is the problem AMD has now, the "half core" design has really shitty IPC (in fact you have to have a 1GHz overclock compared to the Phenom II to beat the Stars arch with the BD arch) and instead of accepting that and going back to the drawing board they are just cranking the shit out of the clock which again gets you into crazy temps and power draw. I mean who would even want a 220w CPU, when a chip drawing half the power in the Intel camp will beat it? Hell I build exclusively AMD but I won't even mess with the 140w because of the heat, i don't even want to know how much heat a 220w CPU would crank, even with liquid cooling the amount of waste heat that thing is gonna generate will just be unreal.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 2) 271

Sadly it wouldn't help friend. read the article by the AMD engineer i linked to, they knew 2 years before Bulldozer there was a serious flaw in the design, the "half core" design requires BOTH the Operating System AND the programs to all be designed with that in mind and even then it will only give a boost in certain niche applications.

The simple fact of the matter is just as Netburst went for raw speed above all with the BD/PD design they made MUCH more primitive cores and thought they could make up for the primitive design by just adding more of them but most programs just won't scale. Even games benefit from having one really powerful core to run the main thread and weaker threads for AI,Sound, etc but the BD/PD design instead has a primitive core that is really only good at integer loads, the second you start adding floating point its gonna bog down.

At the end of the day the BD/PD design is really only good for servers and even then only in certain roles, with desktops and laptops we run just too many FP programs and single threaded programs for very simple weak integer heavy cores to work. This is why they keep cranking the clocks, hoping they can boost the speed enough to make up for that shortcoming but to use a car analogy that would be like saying if you just push this Pinto really REALLY hard it'll keep up with a Porsche, its just not gonna work. hell they have to go for a full 1Ghz higher clock just to beat the Thuban chips which were already not equal to the i7, there is no way in hell they can get the clock high enough to make a half core compete with a full core, its just not gonna work.

Comment Re:Awesome (Score 2) 271

Dude, now you are just being a douche, you really are. Your argument would be like saying "You can't compare any boat sinking to Titanic because that boat wasn't built before 1920!" and it really makes you sound like a pedantic dick, it really does.

As another pointed out Intel did NOT keep adding ever more pipelines to netburst, they just kept ramping up the speed because they didn't have the IPC, with a 5GHz on their roadmap before they pulled the plug. Likewise Amd is ramping up the speed because they don't have the IPC and as other have already pointed out you get THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM you had with netburst, the more you crank the clock on an already inefficient design the more waste power and heat you are gonna have. Intel ended up into 150w territory before they finally gave up on netburst, AMD went from 65w-95w with Athlon64 to now 140W+ and soon to be 220w and again they, just like netburst, are blinding trying to fix the fundamental flaws with the arch by simply cranking up the clocks.

So I'm sorry but everyone else can see the analogy, i could wallpaper this post with websites where tech editors make the exact same comparison to netburst, so if you think the ONLY way anything could be like netburst is by adding a 31 stage pipeline? Well you're just being a dick for the sake of arguing, please stop wasting everyone's time being a pedantic ass.

Comment Re:Yes (Score -1, Offtopic) 372

Meh they'll sell a few to those that have to have the biggest ePeen, most won't give a shit. Hell why do you think Intel and AMD have both seen the PC sales drop so much? I can tell it it AIN'T because of tablets or phones, its because all these PCs became so insanely overpowered that they spend most their their time twiddling their thumbs, its like telling a guy he should spend $100K+ on this turbocharged funny car when he already has a funny car and all he is using it for is to drive to the store, its really just overkill for the vast majority.

I mean what do the vast majority use these desktops and laptops FOR anyway? they surf, watch videos, play a few games, that is it, that's all. hell any C2D or Athlon X2 can do these jobs with cycles left over yet these companies just keep building ever more powerful when the programs simply don't use the power we have. So while I can see why they are doing it, to have as many bullet points as they can, honestly? I bet there isn't even 5% of laptop users that would find this a big enough improvement to go shell out the big bux to get this feature.

Comment Re:Someone start a defense fund (Score 1) 955

The reason for that is simple, the people are conditioned from an early age NOT to think. I mean its no surprise to me that those I have met who were home schooled had better critical thinking skills and were quicker to spot the bullshit than those that went to public school. Because I was lucky enough not to have to go to most of junior high and high school (bike wreck kept me out of junior and the coach finding out I read Asimov the first day of HS ended up with me teaching my own class for 4 years to help jocks pass minimum requirements while the "classes" I was supposed to take just gave me straight As) I got to see both sides of the fence and they might as well call public school "Conform and obey" because that is all they are really teaching.

Its like the old George Carlin bit "things will never get better, know why? Because the owners of this country don't want it to get better! Think they want adults that can think and reason? No they want obedient workers, who will take worse working conditions, less pay, who have just enough sense to be shown how to push the buttons but never capable of asking why their lives sucks, the entire system is built around this".

But if you want to know why people keeping "falling" for this all it takes is to walk inside the home of your average voter. I would walk into the homes of my boy's friends to pick them up and I would be shocked, not a single book in the house, the kids being babysat by game consoles, and mom and/or dad staring with a blank expression at the idiot box. It was sad to see how little thinking actually goes on in the average household, the only hope I have is more and more of the young and young adults are turning to computers to get information...probably why they are monitoring everyone, so they can spot them "dangerous thinking types".

Comment Re:Insurance Policy? (Score 1) 293

It just shows that if you could turn stupid people into electricity you'd solve the energy problem tomorrow.

I mean do i personally give a wet fuck if after it was pointed out you could be downloading anything, state secrets, child porn, terrorist crap that could get you several years in PMITA prison, that some retard goes "huh huh, I'll download it anyway, just to show I'm retarded huh huh"? Nope, not my IP address that will trace back to it, not my hard drive it will be found on, I won't be the one looking at time so i really don't give a fuck, zero fucks to give here.

Hell if you "really want to show me" why don't you go download some CP and visit some terrorist websites, boy I bet that would really show me who is boss huh...dumbass.

Slashdot Top Deals

Just go with the flow control, roll with the crunches, and, when you get a prompt, type like hell.