Have you looked at what has been going in in Egypt ever since the Brotherhood came into power? The Churches are not happy but are cowed as dhimmis under threat of death (remember, Islam is evil - and when they say they are prepared to kill you they really mean it). Your statement is again false. Go and look at what is *actually* happening in Egypt to the Copts - from *Coptic sources*. Then have a look at the Assyrian population in Iraq (harrassment by Muslims and ethnic cleansing where the Assyrians who have been in Iraq longer than the Muslims). Then look at the ethnic cleansing of Serbians in Kosovo - even this last Christmas the Serbs were not allowed to visit their own church. Look at the firebombings of Churches in Indonesia. Yesterday's machine gun attack by Muslims on Thai Buddhists. Is this the "equality" you speak of? You are a clueless dhimmi that refuses to see the reality of what is going on in the world - and by making (false) statements you are enabling the evil to continue. I bet you don't even know what goes on in world daily - which is why your mental model of Islam does not correspond to the reality in the World today, and why you can't explain why jihadis from Mauretania to Indonesia Aceh are going what they are doing. Simple, Islam is evil and is allowing evil people to do evil things and directing good people to ignore the evil.

Ah, the bullshit old "it only applied in history defense". Well, you'd better tell the millions of imams around the world that preach this every Friday that they are wrong and Jah-Wren Ryel has the true story. A random survey of mosques in the *USA* found around 80% of them had hate-speech and pro-jihad material. You'd better get around to those mosques to tell them that they have got it wrong and all those verses only applied historically.

Why don't we make a wager. If you go to Gaza and publicly and loudly tell Hamas that they have it wrong and jihad is both only historical and an inner-jihad of self improvement and come back to tell the tale then I will publicly come on to Slashdot and say I was wrong and you were right. My terms of the wager are that you get life insurance and I am the beneficiary of the policy. Wager? You know the logical and probably consequences of such an action - which proves your statements patently false and not correlated with reality. Deep down you know that Islam is evil because it is Islam that drives Hamas and Hezbollah and the Brotherhood. Think that Hamas are out of the mainstream? Well, we can make the wager where you go to Egypt's Tahrir square and openly proclaim you are a Jew and believe in equality for all peoples and religions, including Jews. Surely 80 million Egyptians can't all be muddle-headed extremists, right? Same conditions on the life insurance please. Or why not go to Saudi Arabia, point out your allegation of equality of religion under Islam and start building a Church in Mecca. You know what will happen. You also know that it is Islam that commands the people to do what they do. Deep down you also know that Islam is evil. You know you wouldn't survive in an Islamic country if you try to exercise any Enlightment liberty - even one as fundamental (and as harmless to others) as Free Speech. Islam is evil. We both know it. You know what would happen to your life expectancy if you went to Egypt or Syria or Lebanon or Jordan or Indonesia or Pakistan and try to practice what you have been preaching here. Everyone reading these forums can see the colossal holes in your arguments where reality rips them to shreds.

Ah, you have nothing left to say, and can't defeat my references - especially the primary source ones - so out comes the denigration. It doesn't change the arguments I've made; that Islam is evil; it doesn't deny the reality that jihadis and entire nations agree with the interpretation of Islam that I have put forward; it doesn't change the fact that your assertion that Islam is not evil does not match the daily evidence; it doesn't change the fact that you are supporting evil and are thereby evil yourself.

So, are we on with the bet? Your choice of Islamic country to go to where you try and exercise your "equal" status. You see, the common thread between the countries is Islam - that's why their responses are so similar and your demise assured if you attempted to do what you claim you can do. If Islam achieves its goal and takes over the West within the next few decades you won't even have to move. Merely by having this conversation you would be an apostate to some imam, and would be marked for death along with the actual Free Thinkers. All readers know this, that's why they can see your arguments don't hold any water.

Please go and view Stephen Coughlin's five part series on Islamic Law, Abrogation and the OIC. You still don't know what you are talking about until you see the counter point of view to the one you made up.

All you needed to do is watch the first twenty five seconds of a video of Qaradhawi that I posted in an earlier video where he states he's been promoting martyrdom operations for twenty years. Watching 25 seconds of video testimony straight from the horses' mouth would disabuse you of your false notion.

Lol. I didn't make my statements for you. I wrote them all for reasonable people who have open minds. They can see the partial-truths you put forward and then I have quoted reliable analysis that consider what the statements really mean (including both pro-Islamist and pro-Enlightenment arguments). I haven't yet got to the good bits. Like when Islamists condemn terrorism suckers like you think they are condemning the violence of Al Qaeda but in fact they are doing the opposite - jihad is legal and mandatory under Sharia and the "terrorists" are states like Israel, America and Britain that wage "illegal war" by defending their citizens against jihadis. Check out Stephen Coughlin's analysis of the Sharia aspects of this (and how the OIC's ten year plan at the UN is unfolding). Betcha didn't know that - because you aren't even looking. That's what the people reading will see. Even a child can understand that Islam is evil based on the state of the 57 Islamic countries and their interactions with their neighbours. No amount of sophistry can hide the obviousness of the truth, despite your feeble attempts to select scripture and commentaries that deny what is evident in the world today. You have no theory that can account for the statements made by jihadis, their parent organizations, the imams, or the actions of their nations. I do - I have presented a theory (not my own, far smarter people have come up with it) that explains it all. Islam is an evil political ideology. That explains all the evidence. It explains the actions of Mohammed. It explains the OIC. It explains Al Qaeda. It explains why Islamists lie to Westerners and the Muslim sheeple. It explains why women are treated like property. It explains the Sunni-Shia war currently raging. You have no coherent explaination of these phenomena - therefore your understanding is a worse approximation of reality than mine. Yes, there are many subtlies in understanding Islam - but it is clear that your explanation that "Islam is not evil" and thereby 1.5 billion Muslims have simply got the wrong understanding of what they are commanded to do is ludicrous. That is what the readers will see :)

Let's also get scientific about this, let us consider two theories and see how that matches the evidence we see around the world. We'll then consider the probability that each theory is correct (or the degree to which each theory is correct). The two theories are:

• Islam is not an evil ideology
• Islam is an evil ideology

Here are some cases, consider which of the two theories best matches the observations:

• The existence and actions of of Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, Abu Sayyaf, the Muslim Brotherhood that are dedicated to the restoration of the Caliphate and eventual domination (either by violent or legal means) of Islam around the world. This is point for "Islam is an evil ideology".
• The Qur'an, hadiths and tradition have mixed messages on violence, genocide, intolerance etc. Once you understand abrogation this is a point for "Islam is an evil ideology"
• Over 20000 fatal Islamist attacks around the globe since 9/11. Many attacks stated that Islamic principles (an oxymoron, heh) were the reason for the attack. A big point for "Islam is an evil ideology".
• The repeated statements by imams that Jews are the sons of pigs and apes and will be killed in a genocide on the Last Day. A point for "Islam is an evil ideology".
• The fact that only around 20% of the World's Muslims support jihad either physically, financially or morally (another oxymoron). Once you understand that most Muslims are good *despite* the teachings of Islam and horrific example of the warlord Mohammed then "Islam is an evil ideology" is not ruled out. You can also make a good case for "Islam is not an evil ideology". Therefore this data point could go either way. No points for either.
• Slavery is still legal in Sudan, and was only recently removed in Saudi Arabia. A point of "Islam is evil".
• Female genital mutilation is a custom restricted to Islamic communities (and therefore permitted and encouraged by Islam). A point of "Islam is evil"
• Polygamy. Some men miss out. Many women are not treated well. A point for "Islam is evil"
• The OIC plan for enforce Sharia globally and the fact that around 40% of Muslims world-wide agree with this idea. A point for Islam is evil
• Islam will permit those of other religions to practice without conversion provided their houses of worship are not repaired, no new houses of worship are built, the practitions submit to discrimination as dhimmis, and pay the hefty jizra protection money or forfeit property and possibly life. A point of Islam is evil
• The claim that Islam is the direct word of a supreme being and cannot be questioned. Questioning is considered apostasy and the penalty for that is death. Islam is evil
• Questioning Mohammed, or the theocracy is apostasy and is punishable by death. Islam is evil.
• If you are a Muslim (including by accident of birth) and decide that you no longer believe in its teachings you are an apostate and this is punishable by death. Islam is evil
• If you are a woman and are raped unless you have four male witnesses you are considered and adultress and must be stoned to death. Therapist suffers no penalty. Islam is evil
• You may marry a child of any age, since Mohammed himself married Aisha when she was six and he was fifty-four. Islam is evil
• Adoption is prohibited in Islam because Mohammed wanted to marry his adopted son's wife so he forced them to divorce so he could have her. Islam is evil
• Building a church or proseltyzing in Saudi Arabia is prohibited. No equality of faiths. Islam is evil
• Stealing for any reason is punishable by amputation of hands and feet on opposite sides. Islam is evil
• Killing of any non-Muslims is permitted if they are no dhimmis and there is no penalty for the murder. Islam is evil
• All able bodied men must wage jihad annually (although jihad by providing money is permitted). Islam is evil.
• Muslims may rape any non-Muslim women or child (if they are not dhimmi) with no penalty. Islam is evil
• Jihad is required until the entire world proclaims there is no god but allah and Mohammed is his prophet. Islam is evil
• Lying to infidels is not only permitted, it is mandatory upon every Muslim to do so. Islam is evil.
• There is no science or natural laws. There is only the will of Allah (a later addition thanks to Al Ghazali et al). Counter to reality and therefore an evil preachment
• Muslims may not take non-Muslims as friends, except to deceive them until the time that they can be subjugated as dhimmis. Islam is evil.
• If a women shames her family (eg. wears lipstick) she can be murdered with no penalty. If he family fails to do this themselves theyt may be seen as apostates and thereby also liable for killing. Islam is evil
• Sharia defines slander as anything that offends a Muslim, no matter how true this is. This is counter to Free Speech, and is therefore evil.
• Muslims from another sect are considered apostates and can be killed. This results in perpetual war even in places with negligible non-Muslims. A world dominated by Islam (which is the goal of Islamists) would not be at peace, it would be in perpetual war and barbarism. This is evil
• A Muslim ruler that does not enforce Sharia is not Islamic enough and it becomes the duty of every Muslim to remove them. This results in chronic instability in countries with Islam. This is evil.
• Torture is permitted as set by the example of Mohammed himself. This is evil.

I'll stop there. It's not even going to be close folks. Which theory about the ideology of Islam *as it is practiced* today.

Now only the deluded would argue that some tiny bit of verse counters the ideology what the 1.5 or so billion Muslims mostly agree on, and how Islam is put into practice in the ways I've listed. The scientific conclusion is that the theory "Islam is an evil ideology" is a vastly better fit to the observed behavior than the theory "Islam is not an evil ideology". That is "Islam is an evil ideology" strongly correlates with observation and there is almost no evidence for "Islam is not an evil ideology" (apart from some legalistic theoretical arguments made by cherry picking abrogated versus and ignoring everything else, including the real world).

So ladies and gentlemen, which theory do you agree with based on the evidence from the real world?

Well, the people reading will clearly see that you have no understanding of abrogation and how that vastly changes the interpretation of the verses you presented - because Allah himself has abrogated them and caused them to be replaced with newer and better verses (which, incidentally call for jihad). Instead of living up to your promise, essentially that you will find a Qur'anic verse that will abrogate 9:5 you come up with some secondary source.

Hmm. How 9:5 is read when taking into account 9:4 is usually interpreted this way, "fight all unbelievers that you don't have a treaty with. If you have a treaty then fight those that have breached the treaty. If you have a treaty and its conditions are still met, then leave them alone for up to four months" (hudna).

With regard to your Al Azhar quote. What you don't understand is that people are free to practice their religion - but *only as second class dhimmis who must pay an extortion tax of jizya or be at risk of being killed*. Islam will let people practice their religions until they die out (as is happening in the Middle East now that Islamists have no moderating influence there). That is exactly akin to the scheme promoted by the mafia with some extra subjugation and humiliation thrown in for good measure. This is evil, yes? Now while individuals may not be compelled to become Muslim provided they accept discrimination against them as dhimmis there is absolutely no provision for Muslims to be ruled over by non-Muslims in the long term (Muslims may be ruled over in the short term until the Muslims achieve dominance, eg via jihad). This is discriminatory in the extreme. Of course, I'm sure Jah-Wren Ryel never thought about this very hard - which is why he still defends totalitarian evil.

I know that the ladies and gentlemen reading this will see how Jah-Wren Ryel's analysis is superficial and misses critical points that a full analysis gives. This superficial analysis leads him to false conclusions that disagree with mainstream Islamic jurisprudence and he cannot reconcile his views with the reality of the acts in the world today eg. the *factual* figures given in the list of attacks at religionofpeace.com - where over 20000 *fatal* jihadi attacks have been carried out since 9/11 because hundreds of millions of Muslims have a common understanding of Islam, from 1400 years of tradition, that is exactly against Jah-Wren Ryel self-deluded interpretation.

Look, all physicists don't want to believe in Quantum Mechanics as the nature of reality. We would much rather have a nice deterministic view of the world but that simply is not the nature of reality. I'd also like Islam to be a religion of peace that seeks coexistence with other religions in the same way Christianity, Judaism and secular humanism. The reality is that, just like quantum mechanics, Islam is not about telling the truth, or not coveting your neighbours wife, or in the sanctity of life, or in living in peace with your neighbours, or rainbows ponies and unicorns. The reality of Islam is that it is a totalitarian, theocratic, misygonistic, genocidal, racist, homophobic, counter-scientific political ideology that is actively working to undermine and eventually remove the liberties in the Free World. It does not seek coexistence, it seeks to dominate the globe. Don't let Jah-Wren Ryel delusions fool you ladies and gentlemen - he simply doesn't know what he is talking about (although he is arrogant enough to think he does - despite him being proven to be ignorant of critical elements of Islamic theory).

There is so much more to add to this conversation. The Holy Land Foundation Trial, Reliance of the Traveller, a detailed discussion of the evil of Sharia, the global plan of the OIC (which they are advancing quite quickly thanks to useful idiots like Jah-Wren Ryel), the invention of "Islamophobia" by the OIC to shut down objective criticism of Islam or theocracies, the claims of ridiculous and false 'science' in the Qur'an that are completely against scientific proof today, the evidence showing the gradual Islamicization of the West and erosion of liberty and free speech, the historical picture of the Qur'an (and the Sa'ana Quran discovery that shows that the claims of divine origin of the Qur'an are false), the fact that the Qur'an contains no divine information that a iron age writer of the 7th Century would know, the fact that even little Aisha was able to see the hypocrisy of Mohammed and how he make shit up to suit himself (a little pre-pubescent girl like Aisha is smarter than the repulsively fawning Islamic apologists). Then we have the hadiths showing the utter sexual imorality, rapaciousness, treachery and barbarity of Mohammed and his followers. So good people, don't believe the lies the Muslims and their apologists are telling you in their oft-stated quest for global domination.

Islam and Enlightenment values (liberty, equality in all its forms) are completely incompatible. Islam is evil (although many Muslims are good). That is the sad but true reality.

Come back with the verse that abrogates 9:5 and then we can talk. You are not going to find it. They are among Mohammed's last words and there are no peaceful statements that negate it. Islam was (for 1400 years), is, and always will be violent to unbelievers and Muslims of other sects. So don't defend or appease such monstrous evil folks. Stand only for truth, individual liberty, Free Speech, Freedom of Conscience as *equal* religions, self-determination and the rights of women and animals, abolition of slavery in Sudan etc. because Islam commands these all be taken away (as you can see in nearly all the OIC countries)

Finally, a personal word for Jah-Wren Ryel. I hope you travel through Israel to learn how Islam can be done in a way where it is restricted from being evil. Then I hope you live in an Islamic country - you would gain better understanding if you were a women (half the value of a man) or a little boy (subject to the sexual depravities of men who have no access to women). Then you might actually get a clue about how Islam is *really* practiced when there are no Westerners about to moderate and oppose its sheer evilness.

Abrogated. Therefore non applicable. Anyone who understands Islamic theology knows this.

The fact you don't know about abrogration - a *core doctrine* of Islam - shows you know *nothing* about how Islamic theology fits together. I would be exceedingly embarrassed if I were you. Mind you, the fact that you were able to 'defeat' my 'brethren' and they knew even less than you shows the state of knowledge about Islam is woeful. No wonder, to speak plainly about Islam one becomes slandered as a 'racist' (ridiculous - Islam is an ideology, not a race) and to tell the awful truth endangers the whole evil Islamist project and they react with threats of violence and actual violence against anyone who does speak the truth. That's why I defend my point of view so vigorously, there is so many mislead people out there that don't understand Islamic theology correctly. By re-reading the Qur'an and hadiths with the knowledge of how abrogation works you will arrive at the same picture that bin Laden did, Qaradhawi does and I do. The difference is that they don't care if it is evil in human terms, they only care about follow (the imaginary and clearly evil) Allah's will or not (which could well be evil - but that is not their concern).

More Al Qawadari - "Yusuf al- Qaradawi - Kill All Pro Syrian Government Supporters" [1 month ago]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yexixuNzuaY
More evil. No only are Muslims commanded to kill other infidels, they are supposed to kill Muslims of other sects.

Completely false equivalence. I doubt this Glen Beck guy calls for genocide or the war against people of other faiths. Qaradawi, following his evil ideology, does - which you can easily find if you care to look (but I bet you don't even look, it would fit the nice bubble of unreality you live in).

Al taqiyya for non-Muslims (notice the EU domain) and guillable Westerners (like you). That's not the position in Arabic and in documents published for Muslims to read.

Do you disagree that it is the duty of every able-bodied Muslim to carry out jihad against infidels? (which clearly means violent jihad and not 'ijtihad' - if you know what that means).

You clearly still have a lot to learn about Islam. You are reading the sanitised taqiyya version meant for suckers. The only thing that matters is not what the Islamists tell non-Muslims (who they are not only permitted to lie to, they are *obliged* as a religious duty). Look for a real picture from an outfit like MEMRI (note, who are )

Aren't you concerned that after seven years of research your regular sources didn't explain in depth abrogation and its significance in interpretation of Islamic Scripture? surely, if you are objective, you must be concerned that your regular sources must be of low reliability if they did not discuss the implications of abrogation on the scripture under discussion.

One excellent source for an understand of Islamic Law is Stephen Coughlin. he used to brief the Pentagon and it was his job to understand Islamic Law by reading *Islamic* sources - not the junk published for the West or by deluded Westerners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsArto3UVT0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t98WRrOPj2s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkAZUvQAzkc
This guy knows Islamic Law better than you or I, and much better than many Muslims. While he never makes a value judgement of Islam as "evil" it is clear that his analysis shows that your arguments are bunk.

So please come back when you've got understand which parts of Islam are abrogated and which are not. Also look at the evil in the "Reliance of the Traveller" (approved by Al Azhar). Also, take a look at (uncensored) news meant for Muslims from the Middle East. Both the MEMRI and CAMERA projects provide great translations and highlight the evil indoctrination provided to Muslims through their mainstream media. Clearly the Islamists believe Islam commands something different to your interpretation (that is, your interpretation is *not* mainstream).

An non-abrograted commandment to kill all Muslims even if they are not a threat to believers. This is evil

More commandments to do evil on innocents for having the temerity for Free Speech, Free Thinking, Equality of Women, Rights for homosexuals etc.

Their choice is to become Muslims (join the evil crew; which is evil), submit as dhimmis and pay jizya (where other commandments require them to feel subjugated and humiliated; this is discriminatory and against equality of religions and peoples, against Free Speech and Freedom of Conscience; in a word - evil). If they don't do these things then they are liable to be killed. How is that not evil?

Horseshit. Here is where you are chosing to ignore evidence that exactly support my point. Osama did not do what he did because he got out of bed on the wrong side. He did it because the Qur'an and hadiths and jurisprudence commanded him to do it. Osama and I have the same view of Islam. You do not. Similarly, Mohammed said and did the things he did because he invented Islam (contrary to ridiculous claims that Islam existed before Mohammed). Islam was the cause of them, and millions of others, doing these things. Now you can choose to act like a lawyer and choose to exclude evidence. However, you could act like a scientist and take a holistic view and look for evidence that counters your claim. As a trained scientist I look for evidence to counter the claim that Islam as an ideology is not evil and put that against the evidence that it is. Guess what, Islam is, one the whole, evil. On relative terms Islam is also far more evil than many other ideologies that are lesser evils.

And your defence?

I have provided you a link with a thorough analysis of the positions for and against 9:5. I can't help you read if you don't want to. The conclusion of the analysis is basically that it says what everything things it says - a commandment for aggression and subjugation of non-Muslims. Here, for your convenience I'll provide the link again
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/swordverse.htm

Now perhaps you don't think 9:5 is evil for a simple reason that I have not yet mention - you are a closet Islamist. I cannot discount that fact. An evil person would never see evil no matter how evil something was. A rational person would read the linked argument I've given, consider the numerous aspects (as the analysis does - it is balanced) and then come to the same conclusion what it says - slaughter and subjugate non-Muslims (which is an evil).

Now for all your talk you still have not a single skerrick of counter evidence for the supposition that Islam is not evil. All you have is a claim about some research and a statement that your Muslim friends are good people: which I don't doubt in the least, they are people after all, and most people are intrinsicly good by nature - it requires religion/ideology to make them do bad things against that nature.

However, we are not talking about people, we are talking about the dictates of an ideology.

Since you have thus far failed to grok a fundamental of the argument, that people and ideologies are different (even if they influence each other), the consider the following:
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
Steven Weinberg [Physicist], quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

Grok the point now? See how many Muslims can be good but that does not excuse the evil of the ideology of Islam itself? defending such an evil ideology necessarily makes one evil too. Don't be evil, be a force for Truth, Goodness and Compassion in this world. Oppose evil and do not tolerate the intolerant.

No, why you consider it not evil? Also, it is clear you know about the greater and lesser jihad. How do you think 9:5 is about greater jihad when the hadiths, history and jurisprudence all indicate the lesser jihad - the violent one. Hopefully you have also looked at the hadiths. How could one say that Mohammed was not evil when it is clear he was. He burnt down a mosque *with people inside it* because it wasn't him to decided on the construction. He slaughtered a tribe, killed its leader by kindling a fire on his chest, and then took the leader's wife for himself (that is, raped her on the day he murdered her husband). He *obliged* lying to promote his interests (completely against Christian or Judaic morality). He promoted killing of everyone that didn't follow his edicts (against the Christian message of tolerance). He promoted sexual immorality and polygamy (against Christian and Judiac commandments). To question Mohammed exacts a greater penalty under Sharia than to blaspheme against Allah Himself. This is all evil. I don't believe in the eschatology of an Anti-Christ, but it is pretty clear that if you were to invent a religion and ideology that was against Judiac and Christian morality then Islam is what you'd come up with. The Qur'an commands evil, the hadiths show that great evil was carried out, Al Azhar promote that evil as the will of Allah to this day. And you defend it and so morally disfunctional you cannot see the problem with a verse that clearly commands slaughter and subjugation of innocents. It is a shame your mind is so closed you cannot see the evil you promote - instead you try (and fail) with sophistry to deny the inexorable conclusion of all the evidence.

Sura 9:5 clearly calls for murder, subjugation and paying what is called jiza for innocent people - even if they do not choose to follow Mohammed. Where is you evidence to counter this? you have none!

JavaFX 2 is a nice evolution for those used to Swing (yes, yes, many don't like Swing, but you simply can't beat Swing for power and flexibility once you get some experience in it). It has a much nicer default styling than even Nimbus for Swing, and great built in aesthetic effects (hence the "FX") that mostly get switched on with a simple boolean property. JavaFX makes the same mistake as Swing in that there are no standard Calendar/Date controls, yet just about every application needs these. Fortunately you can use one of the third party controls, or even embed your existing Swing applications into your JavaFX app. That's pretty funky stuff.

Computing is more than just the Web. Javascript is ok for web stuff. Crap for rich clients with functionality that doesn't work well over the network, usually because the datasets are too big (eg. CAD, GIS, graphics/photography, simulations). There is still an ernomous space for rich client technologies like JavaFX, and JavaFX 2 looks really nice and has some great built in styles and effects. It's also pretty easy to program if you are used to Swing.

The entire chapter blows. But 9:5 has been used to justify the slaughter of hundreds of millions (with the Indians getting it pretty bad - which is why the Hindus have strong views on the outright lie that Islam is religion of peace). 9:5 is used as one of the justifications by Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Boko Haram, Abu Sayyaf etc for physical jihad, then we have the cultural jihad of the Muslim Brotherhood and OIC (that latter busy passing racist and anti-Free Speech resolutions in the UN and particularly the Human Rights Council that it dominates - they have perverted the UN from its original intent). All of this is understandable from Islamists. What makes it worse is the wannabe-dhimmi cultural relativists (mostly, but not exclusively) from the political Left that mindlessly repeat the taqiyya and demonize those who actually stand up for liberty (and poor defenceless girls) against the totalitarian and evil commandments of Islam and the devout adherents. So, please find me a verse that abrogates the commandment to do evil in 9:5 - you won't find it. Admit it, the ideology called Islam is evil.

Cool. To begin do you understand the principle of abrogration? This is critical.

Let us look at Sura 9. It has many evil ideas in it and is used daily to justify evil acts (eg. to a devout Muslim, jihad against unbelievers is legal and in fact mandatory; that's why what we call terrorism is not illegal under Islamic jurisprudence; they consider it "terrorism" when we defend ourselves from it). Note that there is no verse that abgrogates Sura 9 and Sura 9 abrogates all the other nice verses of the Qur'an (eg. the oft-quoted, "Let there be no compulsion is religion" is abrogated - it simply does not apply; some claim that this verse has not been abrogated but they are negating the rules about abrogation to do so. Sura 9 is among the last This is false. You can't just change the principles of Islam to suit your argument). My understanding of Sura 9 is the same as Osama bin Laden's and Quradhawi's and Qtub's and Al Azhar's. We agree it all means the same thing and abrogates the other verses. It is you that has a differing interpretation of the Qur'an than the four Sunni and single Shia school of jurisprudence. Here's an analysis of the verse, easy to digest and covers both the historicity and supporting evidence:
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/swordverse.htm

Can you counter this and still follow the Islamic rules of interpretation? no you can't. This verse stands. This verse is evil. Hence, Islam is evil - and this is why millions of people are oppressed and the Islamic schools of jurisprudence support this. Stop supporting evil. Even better, fight this evil through word and deed (at least stop hassling people on slashdot who do understand the Islamicists interpretation of Islam, which is the *mainstream* interpretation).

It would be nice if Islam was a religion of peace but it simply isn't. All the Islamic schools and a majority of Muslims (who, incidentally, live in South-East Asia, not the Middle East) agree with the interpretations I've given.

False. This is not about me or what I believe. I hate no-one. This is about what the Qur'an commands its followers to do. You are looking at things in the wrong way (personal attacks) rather than what the Qur'an does or does not command. The Qur'an is evil. There are nice versus in it but these are all "abrogated" - look up the term in an Islamic context if you don't know what that means. This is why my understanding of the Qur'an agrees with Osama bin Laden's, and Qaradhawi's, and Erdogan's and Al Azhar's. And that is why your assessment is wrong.

Oops, missed some links that might help enlighten you:
http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Because it is evil! you haven't even read the Qur'an and hadiths. If you had then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The only reason you are defending the ideology of Islam is because you don't know anything about its core doctrines or the actions of the major players to subvert the liberties of the Free World, eg. OIC

So if you want to learn something how about you read a non-apologetic analysis of the Qur'an. eg. see the following objective analysis of the Qur'an that points out the scientific falsehoods, numerous contradictions, plagerism of Judaic and Christian texts (copies thart still gets all sorts of things wrong) Then you finally might start to understand what people are trying to say *based on a reading of the Qur'an* - not on your guesswork without actually reading it. You are defending Islam based on 'cultural Muslims' that don't actually follow its teachings. That's why those of us who actually have read the Qur'an think your position is clueless since it is not based on an understanding of the mainstream teachings (which are horrific to Western sensibilities). If you ever do read it you won't believe that other believe that crap (actually, most Muslims only follow what their imam tells them, and they pray in Arabic which they do not understand, and they never read the Qur'an, when they do they often become apostates because of the hideous teachings but can't declare openly because apostasy is punishable by death. Even Qarwadari [you know who he is, right?] admitted a few weeks ago that with the death penalty for apostasy Islam would have died out a millenia ago - many Muslims are either cultural (Muslims in name only) or are secretly apostates but live under continual fear of discovery. Why you would defend this evilness is beyond me. Perhaps you should start reading objective analyses of Islam and its historical implications around the world (eg. 270 million people killed because Sura 9:5 and others commanded it).

So yeah, when I tell Muslims their religion is evil it is *because I know what I'm talking about*. Just like all the counter-jihadis. We're not racist as you suppose. We're pointing out to Muslims that have never read the Qur'an and are being lied to by their imams what the Qur'an really says. We're also trying to stop the "honor" killings and female genitial mutilation that cultural artifacts but imposed as religious obligations for followers (again with the threat of the consequences of apostasy for those that don't submit to the commandments of the imams).

So yeah, I feel it's a good thing to tell non-Muslims the truth about Islam. I try to explain to Muslims too if they have open minds (very hard to deprogramme many of them, until they are ready). Their leaders won't do it (they're far far worse than the Christian clergy for hypocracy and distorting reality to suit their ends - horrific slanders about the Jews). The Liberal Left won't do it (since they have common cause with the Islamists to smash the West and install their own systems of control). The media won't do it (since the liberal arts institutions journalists emanate from are left-leaning so they become cultural relativists too afraid to discern good from clear evil). Our political elites won't do it - they lack the courage to stand up for any principals (rightly or wrongly).

So no, I don't hate Muslims -- they are bigger victims than we are. I hate Islam not because I don't understand it, but because I've examined it closely and found it to insanely evil. In fact the preachments and hadiths (acts of Mohammed) are scarely to be believed - which is why someone like you is so skeptical of the claims we make. It turns out what we say is true because it is what is written in the religious documents of the Qur'an and hadiths. This insanity and indoctrinated hatred is what the Free World and Israel are fighting against. You don't have to believe me, but it is the reality of the current world.

I'm not asking you believe me. But if you have an open mind and desire justice and liberty for all people then perhaps you'll listen and believe an ex-Muslim like Wafa Sultan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir_JNPn_GNM
Please Google any of her other videos to learn the truth of what it means to be a Muslim in a Muslim majority country (not a Muslim in the West where what remains of our humanist principles still moderate the growing Islamist actions). You can also check out the testimonies of ex-Muslims at wikiislam, http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam

If you loved your Muslim friends you'd learn the truth about Islam yourself (wikiislam is widely acknowledged as an unbiased source in a sea of taqiyya and right-wing hysteria). You then might try and ask your friends questions that got them thinking about what they really know about Islam - and how the insanity and evilness of its teachings and examples apply in the 21st Century. Islam intends to take the world back to the morality of the 7th Century - but force if necessary (as in, ignorant, superstitious, misogynistic barbarism). What moral person who understands the truth about Islam (which is simple really; it is an inhumane, totalitarian, theocratic political ideology) would not speak out? Are you moral? will you speak out about Islam once you learn about it's *mainstream* interpretation that is violent and evil? Important note: all four Sunni schools and the Shia school agree on the horrible bits; Al Qaeda are not an extremist view as the media often lied to you; they are *devout* Muslims following the *mainstream* interpretation; but an 'expert' on Islam like you already knew that right? if you didn't know that (or don't know enough Islamic scripture to try and refute that assertion), then you have some homework to do, yes?

I hope you discover the truth one day - then you have a chance to do real good. Until then, you are a "useful idiot" for the Islamicist agenda. Please do better than that.