3 is illogical. (well all of it is but I've been there in the rest of it and it's an easy target.)
I *don't* pay to support other people, and I *won't*.
(and like everyone else on this thread, your probbly ready to have some cop shoot me in the face because you don't like that answer.)
Public health, like certain other things, cannot exist where we simply let people do whatever they want, hoping education is sufficient to the task. That's the harsh reality. In my town, we've had a serious TB outbreak among the homeless and drug-using community. Education is tried, but if they persist in behaviors that assure the spread of the disease, then they are forcibly quarantined.
What town is this? I find that action disgusting.
What if I say, you wont touch my children and by the way get the fuck off my yard.
What then?
Thanks, I knew you'd come around. We, the voting public, make our own rules for our public schools, and one of those rules is that kids have to be vaccinated.
What is free education? I've never heard of that before. Where do you live?
Pardon me, I would've brought my scalpel if I knew we were going to be splitting hairs here.
As you know, public schools are "free" in the sense that there's no marginal cost: you pay for public school whether or not you send your kid there. The alternatives do have a marginal cost, either in private tuition or in time spent homeschooling.
People force me to pay property taxes so they can educate other peoples children around here. I don't think that's very fair. Do you?
Yes, I do.
I also think it's fair that I'm forced to pay taxes for services I don't use, because (1) I benefit in turn from services that other people pay for but don't use, and (2) I indirectly benefit from those services anyway. The availability of public schools, for example, results in a more productive economy and less crime, which I enjoy even though I don't have kids.
If you're unhappy with this system, might I suggest moving to an abandoned island? You won't have to put in a lick of work for anyone else's benefit, and you'll get to keep 100% of whatever you manage to gather or hunt. As long as it doesn't spoil before you eat it, that is.
Your the second person that has deployed the "if ya don't like it, leave" argument on me today. I'll give you the same answer. You sound like a Republican when I would tell them it's wrong to bomb people in other countries. I don't subscribe to your authority. You and I made no agreement here, I'm not obliged to do what you command.
You think its fair to pay for services you don't use. That's some kind of wild belief man. I really wish you were my neighbor. I'd ask you to pay my garbage bill because it keeps your home value high. Somehow I think you would balk at that.. and you would be just in doing so.
I think its fair to pay for what you use. (and so do you, you just wont admit it.)
If my kid ends up blind because you didn't vaccinate your kid on horseshit pseudo-scientific grounds, do you think I'll give a shit about the active/passive distinction in moral philosophy?
I don't know will you? Will you kill me because I believe something diffrent than you do? That is my question.
"I don't believe in government"
so there is now one governing in your home?
You're simplistic view is nice when tyour 15, but it's time to grow up.
There is a government..a group of people the govern society. In the US some of those people are paid to keep things moving, and everyone who votes is part of the way things become governed.
government is real, making a false dichotomy of us and them is incorrect.
Ahh I see.. a believer! lol.. out to prove the anarchist wrong ehh? My favorite line people use to me is "It's all around us! don't you see it?!"
You believe that government is people right. Exclusively is government a single person, or only a group of people? Do they only become government when they combine like Voltron, or are they government alone?
You say if I vote then I am government. But I *do* vote (even though I don't believe in it) and for some reason
Some people refer to government as a geographical region. If you live *in* the State of Kentucky. You are not living *in* a person are you?
Government *couldn't* be people. Logically this does not hold by ANY stretch. Try again.
I'll have you know, I've called up those individuals professing to "represent" government... they have no idea what it is either. (other than what I mentioned before. Legal fiction.)
I like my answer better than yours.
How, in a free society, do you prevent people from being killed by drivers driving the wrong way down the road.
The answer is simple, society isn't that free. Individuals are afforded a great degree of freedom, but not an unlimited amount of freedom. So, even in a free society, individuals can be compelled to do things, like getting vaccinated or not swinging the arms wildly in crowded lineups or yelling fire in a crowded theater.
My answer is you educate them as to the danger of driving down the wrong side of the road. Most people know this already and
Your solution is to use force for everything. My solution.. teach people about the benefits of getting vaccinated. It's pretty simple, why has this escaped so many people?
Myself. Contrary to popular belief, one can form their own opinions and beliefs without attaching themselves to someone famous.
I can't sum up my beliefs in this matter in this Slashdot post. I have given them a lot of thought, and actually constantly re-evaluate them. This isn't a forum in which I can correctly describe them. I will give a brief run-down anyway:
My position is that if you've chosen inaction, and I am directly harmed as a result of that, and not of my own actions, then you are to some degree culpable for that harm. I am not less harmed because you passively, rather than actively, endangered me.
To what degree of inaction, you ask? Well that depends on which group of people you hang around with. The libertarians would like to take this to the extreme: Don't have money to pay for doctors? You die in a ditch. Tough luck. The group of people I hang around with, which happens to be the majority, have decided that a different standard is appropriate.
("which happens to be the majority" Ha! How pompous of you to say that!)
The majority, so you support the majority oppressing a minority?
You say you believe that inaction can cause harm and so a person is responsible for that harm if they do not act? Right?
Now like before I said I don't have the answer to that, but I can challenge your statement. You mention that someone who does not have money to go to a doctor and how they have a right to. What your saying here is this man has a right to go to a doctor and say "cure me for free". Correct? I can take that statement no other way. So do you believe doctors are slaves if they are forced to work for other men for free? If you say "Man has the right to a doctor's care without payment.", then your saying "A doctor MUST provide care to other men without payment".
Perhaps you do not mean for this "right" to happen directly between patients and doctors (although it it *was* a right, this *is* how it would work). Perhaps you believe the doctor should be paid, but that other men should labor a percentage of their time for free. (by having their wages stolen and given to the doctor.) I would ask you in this case.. are those men not by some percentage a slave?
I think it is clearly wrong to use force others, so I think forcing others to work is also clearly wrong. I don't see how any such "right" like the one you talk about could POSSIBLY impose an obligation on another man to perform some sort of action.
If you don't like our standards, you can leave. The fact that most places in this world are even less accepting of your point of view than I am is not my concern.
You sound like a Republican. "Yoo don't like it round these parts you cin leave cowboy". Thing is, you don't seem to understand I don't subscribe to your authority. Your not a King and I have never agreed to follow you wishes, or the wishes of your made up group you call "society". Lucky for me, an authoritarian like you doesn't control any aspect of my life, nor do you have an right to do so.
Contrary to popular belief, there are no such things as rights in nature. If you are fit enough, you survive. If not, you die. Groups of people, called societies, invented those, because it creates stronger societies which, in turn, increase our fitness. Societal rules which increase the living standard and sustainability of that society will propagate, while those which do not will stagnate. This may take a while, but it happens. The idea of "rights" which our societal rules are based on are slowly becoming more prevalent.
I disagree. Rights an extension of property. You have rights because you own your body. Animals in nature *do* in fact recognize property. Just ask a bear if it believes in defending it's den. Hell even my stupid little pea brained dog believes in hiding "his" bones.
True man has taken this primitive concept and constructed a philosophy out of it. However the reason this was done was not to "creates stronger societies" but to create happier societies. The concept of rights did not come from the tyrannical Kings and dictators of old for the betterment of their subjects as a collective. The collective did not develop this, it was the recognition that each individual man is no greater and no lesser than each *other* individual man. The idea that right's exist not as granted to us by "society" but because "society" being just a collective of other men, are not greater than the individual and have no power to grant such a right. A group of men can not give "society" an ability to do something they can not do themselves any more than a King can "grant" rights to his subjects.
Yeah.. I don't think you understand this concept very well *at* all.. The great Socrates should spend a little MORE time on this I think.. perhaps some classical education really would help you. Might I suggest "The Rights of Man", or "Two Treatises of Government".
And just let the unvaccinated kids come to school to infect each other (and, possibly, the handful of kids whose immune systems didn't respond to the vaccine)?
You can make your own rules with your own school and kid. It's none of my business what *your* school does.
No thanks. If you want to take advantage of free education, you can take reasonable measures to keep your kid from infecting his fellow students. Otherwise you can tech him yourself or send him to a pricey private school. (Bonus: that means you can also teach him the Holocaust never happened, the earth is 6000 years old, and 9/11 was an inside job!)
What is free education? I've never heard of that before. Where do you live? People force me to pay property taxes so they can educate other peoples children around here. I don't think that's very fair. Do you?
If you are actively endangering others' right to life, then yes you deserved to be locked up.
That sounds fair enough.. however the topic is *passively* endangering another, not actively. We are talking about inaction not action.
I don't know the answer to that question. I would have to spend a great deal of time philosophizing with others about it to come to a proper answer. Since you sound convinced you know the answer, perhaps you can point me in the right direction.. who has influenced your philosophical decision in this matter?
Why, yes, but only because I tire of Libertarian anti-government nuttery that equates any enforcement of a public good over a private choice with death. So, if you don't annoy us too much, we'll let you live. How magnanimous is that?
Your being sarcastic but.. I *have* noticed that ignorant thugs usually tend to result to force when they run out of good arguments.
Did you win all the debates in high school with your fists?
You *almost* had the right answer to my challenge.
By educating the public about the benefits of vaccination, debunking the anti-vaccination nuts whenever they surface.
That is what you do, leave it at that.
(sorry I can't respond to everyone)
OH!! I didn't realize we were talking about HappyFunUniverse, where everyone is free to make whatever decisions they want without regard for consequences!
But even in HappyFunUniverse, it's quite simple: I vaccinate those who wish to be vaccinated, and the rest die of polio. Then, only those who got vaccinated, or had some kind of crazy immunity, survive. You see, in HappyFunUniverse, I don't have to give you medical care when you are infected if I don't want to. Suddenly, HappyFunUniverse is not a fun place to be.
The problem is that we can't let you idiots who don't get vaccinated die in the RealWorld. We're required by law to treat you, to give you dogs when you go blind, to give you crutches when your polio takes away your ability to walk. If I didn't have to pay to treat you and idiots like you, I'd be all about letting you die out. Problem is, I don't have that freedom, so neither do you.
~Sticky
Uhh.. Why would you "give me" medical care? You don't have to give that to me now even if I do get vaccinated. You have no obligation. A right can not make an obligation on others.
You don't have a choice. Freedom is freedom until you impinge on someone else's rights, then you get punished.
Used to be that you'd just be shot by the guy you impinged, but then we figured out that humans are fallible, especially when they think their rights have been impinged, so the punishment is handed out by people with no involvement in the matter (a jury).
You don't understand the concept of rights. I'll explain it to you however. Freedom *is* choice, it doesn't matter if that choice is good or bad, or if it harms or not harms, it's freedom. Anarchy is an absolute in freedom. A "right" is a philosophical concept based on property ownership. The modern understanding of this is based on the work of 17th centenary philosopher John Locke.
Rights have an interdependence upon responsibility, you can't have one without the other. When you infringe upon a right, you do not "get punished" for rights exist outside of any government structure. They exist irregardless of any government law at all. But if you do infringe upon the rights of others you are *responsible* for any damages you may have caused. We call it "justice" when the person responsible repairs the damage caused at his own expense. Punishment is not justice, it's a crime deterrent tactic, and a pretty poor one too. If a thief steals a loaf of bread, justice is when he has replaced what was stolen, it's not when he has his hand chopped off.
Now.. do I think, if you don't feed a child are you guilty of murder? The best answer I can give is "I don't know." It's not my place to answer such things. Among other libertarians and various people who understand the philosophy of liberty it's a highly debated topic. It's a difficult subject because on one hand your saying that you can infringe a right through inaction and arguing the other way would be saying the child does not own their body. The GOOD NEWS is however is that is an extreme case and for the topic at hand.. no I don't believe parents should be shot or jailed for not vaccinating their kids. You seem to.. don't you? Why is that? What's wrong with you? Why can't you leave people alone?
And I'd like to point out that it's perfectly feasible for someone to find you and lock you up without killing you. It's done every day, usually after a jury convicts you.
It's actually usually done before. Ever hear of jail? This is where you go if you submit to police. If you do not, you go in a coffin. Either way.. it's deadly force your advocating.
You follow a set of rules to enjoy the benefits of society. If you decide not to join society, then I don't care. But, since you are on slashdot, I think you are enjoying society.
I don't believe in society. I think it's a concept like religion. I *do* believe in groups of people, and I believe these groups can work together.. but I believe they always remain individuals and never become a kind of.. "society" as in a form of collective or "hive mind" as some people seem to think society is a thing all on it's own, it is not.. I enjoy the benefits of trading and living with other people.. I don't recognize society as anything distinct at all.
~Sticky
I'm not a troll, I'm exposing a rabid belief that people have over topics like this. Never once did I say I didn't vaccinate, or intended not to. All I did is ask questions. We should always question what be believe to be true, more so.. we should allow others to as well. You descended upon me with furious hate and anger.. you were ready to fry me for doing nothing at all but voicing an opinion. I hope you learned something today about the dangers a mob psychology presents to freedom.
Yes, of course, the 4 day old infant, or the 4 year old toddler is going to get up in arms about how he/she hasn't been vaccinated and how they believe their parents are unfit to rear them. Children believe one thing when they are that old: what their parents tell them.
What does this have to do with you?
We don't have to mandate vaccines for adults, you were vaccinated when you were little.
So sure about that ehh? lol
As you grow, you are allowed to make whatever decisions you like about your own personal health and welfare, but you aren't going to be getting federal money for school, you won't be going to school, you won't be getting a government job, you'll only be able to get expensive insurance, etc.
I'm fine with that if I can also stop paying taxes.
"getting federal money for school" Sheash, what god dammed planet do you live on? 100% of my property taxes go to school and I don't even have kids! I can't be a bureaucrat and sponge off others.. tell me, is this what you do?
Why should I pay for something I do not use?
Oh, and your children have to be vaccinated.
Why is that? My partner is unable to produce children, so you don't have to live in fear or me.. lol. However.. I know many that do not get vaccinated and home school their kids.. Is their something wrong with that? Those kids are sharp as a whip and perfectly healthy... perhaps the reason why is *because* they don't go to a government school to get dumbed down education and every known illness under the sun.
Like I said in my original post. I don't have the answer. I don't know if it works. That doesn't matter to me. I really don't care. What matters to me MUCH MORE is there are crazy fucks out there like yourself ready to shoot people who disagree with you.. You are the dangerous and violent types in society. Your the ones who need to realize that these actions of yours are little diffrent than that of a brutish thug demanding his way with threats of force.
Troll Much?
Vaccinations are mandatory because freedom loving hippy trippers that don't consider the costs to other people's children decide not to get their brats vaccinated. And those brats infect other hippytripper brats, and those.... Wait. Could your stupidity actually be coming back on your children?
The reason people get "freaked out" when YOU tell them that YOU don't vaccinate YOUR kids is not because they are scared for their own kids. It's because of YOUR failure to protect your children from:
1. Measles - causes facial scarring, corneal scarring, and blindness
2. Mumps - can cause infertility on older victims
3. Polio - cripples children. Completely. Paralysis and often Death for those that contract it
4. Smallpox - Facial scarring, blindness, limb deformities, paralysis.
You see, they are actually recoiling in horror at what a despicable, inhuman, horrible parent you are. Children face risks. Lots of them. Before adequate medical care, clean water, and all the other modern conveniences (starting about the 1900s), lots of children died before their 5th birthday. And you have just increased their risks from our wonderful 2009 statistics back to the 1909 statistics. Not vaccinating your child opens them up to all of this, Vaccinating opens them up to a tiny risk. Easy FREAKING choice.
My two cents: You should be locked up for child endangerment if you don't vaccinate.
~Sticky
Locked up? What if I don't want to be locked up? Will you send men with guns to my house? What if I say no to them too? Do you advocate killing me?
How is it, that I'm the radical one when your the one who advocates killing others? I haven't actually even said if I believe in them or not, All I did is question it and your already calling for my death.
The actions of the "believers" is what makes me skeptical of the whole thing.. you act more like a religious zealot ready to put me to the torch for practicing witchcraft than someone who uses logic to try to convince me something is good.
A morsel of genuine history is a thing so rare as to be always valuable. -- Thomas Jefferson
