Did I deny the vaccines help mitigate risk? No. If you are vaccinated, then you should be at less risk from others who are not. If they don't wish to get vaccinated it is none of your business as you are already vaccinated.

If you think a "papers please" regime once implemented is ever going to end once implemented you are naive. Covid is not going to go away. Thus it means showing "paperwork" to live your life will never go away either. Once such a system is in place it WILL NOT stop with covid alone. You may be comfortable or may be willing to rationalize/justify said system. I am not.

COVID is NEVER going away regardless of vaccine status.

https://www.acsh.org/news/2020...

Suck it up, accept it, get vaccinated then mind your own business. I'd rather not have to "show papers" for the rest of my life.

Can you quantify for me the risk TO you if you have been vaccinated, from someone who has not? Can you quantify the risks to others who have been vaccinated from someone who has not? The only risk is to themselves. If you argue that they are a risk TO YOU, then you have the same risk FROM VACCINATED people who have covid. That being the case unvaxxed vs vaxxed is moot.

Your argument MIGHT have validity if said disease could be eliminated via vaccination. Guess what it can't.

Yeah actually I do and you do to. Ever drive or ride in a car? You accept the risk that people on the road are competent to drive.
Ever get an operation? Again you accept the risk that others are somewhat skilled etc. You accept risks every day whether conscious of them or not.
Your argument boils down to everyone must get vaccinated even if there is a non-zero risk from taking said vaccine. Essentially you are saying that even though
you can get vaccinated you have the right to force everyone else to shoulder a non-zero risk of side effects because they MIGHT pass the virus on to you.

If I take the vaccine your decision not to is no longer relevant to me. If I take said vaccine and am still at risk then said vaccine obviously does not work. The whole point of being vaccinated is I am no longer at risk of dying. If you argue that un-vaccinated people somehow put you at risk, then that argument becomes moot the moment vaccinated people can carry and transmit said virus to you (which they can.)

"we've created these bodies called "government" that figures out the balance on risk." And we've also created ways to restrain the majority from trampling the rights of the minority.

Again I will point to the science that indicates WE WILL NOT EVER eradicate covid.
https://www.acsh.org/news/2020...

That being the case I'll accept that fact and oppose the security theater which once implemented will not ever go away either.

I'll just leave these here -

https://www.acsh.org/news/2020...
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/2...

American Council on Science and Health - "There are three major reasons why SARS-CoV-2, the novel coronavirus, will never be eradicated."
As well as Dr Fauci....

So yeah - Covid will NEVER go away, Please come to terms with that and the figure out if you want to live in a neverending dystopia or not.
Me I'd prefer not to.

Maybe, but if true, the way to live with it is to get everyone vaccinated. If the vaccine can reduce hospitalizations and deaths by only 50%, it's still a big win.

Not if the end result is a never ending demand to provide papers wherever you go. That is the crux of my argument. I am not against people getting vaccinated, nor am I against people choosing to do so or not. What I am opposed to is the security theater that is going to come about, which will NEVER go away and WILL BE EXPANDED.

LOL tell me about it. Been here a long time, sad to watch.

While I tend toward freedom of choice, my point was - regardless of efficacy we are not going to ever eliminate covid. So given that, do we choose to live in
a "papers please" world or accept the risk (individually vaccinate or not) and move on. Many seem enamored with the security theater because "hey we are doing something about covid".

My argument is whether intentional or not this will condition people to produce papers to go about their lives. That is anitthetical to a free society and anyone who thinks it will stop with "covid requirements" is naive.

OK so what about those who have already had covid? Based on the numbers shouldn't that place them at or near the "herd immunity" threshold?

Again my original point was there is essentially no way this is EVER going to be eliminated, just like we have not managed to eliminate the flu, this is going to stick around. So do we decide to live in a world which demands papers to live our lives or come to terms with that fact and stop the security theater.

Did I say the vaccines don't work? No I said that people who are vaccinated can still catch and spread it. That implies they are not really effective at STOPPING the spread of the virus not that they may not lessen symptoms. Now if you believe the vaccine is effective in that manner, fine please take it. If you do it will minimize your symptoms etc. Having said that forcing others to take it does ZERO for you if you are vaccinated.

You obviously disagree, so please answer the following - I assume you are fine with being asked to present papers proving you are vaccinated, to work, to socialize etc? Are you fine with doing that in perpetuity? What if additional requirements are added, would you still be okay with it? I personally am not, and there are many others who aren't as well.

As of June 26, 2021, about 64% of eligible Israelis have received at least one dose (and a world-leading 60% with two doses)

That's as of end of june. Are you telling me that in the following two months no one else there has been vaccinated?

In addition if people who do get vaccinated can still catch and spread it you are not going to get herd immunity, until and unless you have natural immunity in
70-80% by catching it.

LOL Yes I understand R0. How exactly do you KNOW we'll get below 1 from vaccinations? Obviously not working in Israel as with 80%+ vaxxed people are still catching and spreading it. How do you KNOW there are no reservoirs? You can literally do minimal research and see that not only dogs and cats, but deer, mink etc. can catch it, and spread it back to people. From one of the links -

"APHIS supports a One Health approach to addressing animal diseases, including SARS-CoV-2. Widespread human infections with SARS-CoV-2 combined with human-wildlife interactions create the potential for spillover between people and animals. Studying the susceptibility of certain mammals, such as deer, to SARS-CoV-2 helps to identify species that MAY SERVE AS RESERVOIRS or hosts for the virus, as well as understand the origin of the virus, and predict its impacts on wildlife and the risks of cross-species transmission."

Emphasis mine.

All of which is beside the point. My point was politicians are utilizing this to condition people to "show papers" in order to carry on with their lives. You are Naive if you think that will EVER stop once implemented. You are also naive if you believe it will not expand past the initial requirements only related to covid. So while you may be pro vaccination, being "pro-papers" is another thing entirely, one that once in place will expand.

I'm sadly amused by all the "all anti-vaxxers are killing people" - why?
Even if 100% of people were vaccinated this is not going away PERIOD. Think I'm wrong?

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/inv...
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aph...

On top of which Israel is seeing a spike in infections in those who were vaccinated.

If the vaccinated can still catch and spread it, AND there are natural reservoirs in pets and other animals there is literally zero chance this goes away.

Now do you honestly think those in power don't know this?

We have a situation where people are blatantly lying about vaccination "eliminating" covid.

Which leads to the question - Why lie? Why not simply admit that we are stuck with covid and must learn to live with it?

There are only two likely reasons IMO- First it's about money. Second it's about CONTROL. Whether intentional or simply a byproduct the push for mandatory vaccines and "passports" is conditioning for people to accept the idea of showing "papers" to go about their lives in society. The processes will be put in place, the requirements will expand, first the vaccine, then mandatory boosters every 6 months etc. Next will be more restrictions on basic freedoms.

If the populace buys it, other things WILL creep in to the requirements, not just covid.

Regardless of whether the vaccine helps, all the bullshit about passports etc are antithetical to a free society. I'm glad to see many of you are more than happy to jump into a cage of your own making.

IAAL...

Copyrights are not patents, copyrights have independent creation exception, but there's no exclusive use and you can't just point to prior art. So you can't say: look it existed before and walk away if you're sued. All musicians say I didn't steal that melody, I come up with myself! The fight always centers around: Did you actually come up with it yourself or did you hear some other song and copy it. George Harrison vs. The Chiffons being a fine example.

Despite there being an alleged hard drive with every melody possible--that's still the exact same case. Now a defendant could say: I heard it on track 512,010,120 on this copyrighted hard drive that no one has heard of or listened to vs. on that song that there's a record of me listening to on Amazon or that was played on the radio.

I'm against imaginary property as the rest of the pitchfork bearing folk but I'm not sure what the point of this was and they should get off my lawn and news feed. Good publicity for ... something ... I guess. Oh look, there's a TED Talk, that always inspires confidence.

I'd be willing to bet most if not all of these CEOs employ PRIVATE ARMED security guards to safeguard their property and families.....

I'd also be willing to bet if you asked the American people most would also want these types of services outlawed. If that were ever to happen I think all these people would change their "gun control" opinions in rather short order.