Whose to say the customer doesnt want the product? You're kidding yourself if you think hackers and tinkerers are a large part of any customer base outside dev products.
Oh, I don't know about that.
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/28/unlocked_iphone_sales_as_high_as_40_percent_in_europe_report.html
And Virginia's AG want's to investigate climate scientists. WYFP?
The St. Louis County attorney was endorsed by Progressive Action. In her bio, she certainly sounds like a foaming at the mouth right winger doesn't she? Why waste everyone's time with this nonsense?
Do charges equal guilt on your planet?
I never said they were guilty, I was merely responding to the assertion that this was a FOX / right wing manufactured incident.
Next time, a little more diligent research and a pinch less straw man would go a long way.
Just as I thought. "People I disagree with and whom I do not like" is your definition of the "left". In actuality however nothing has changed much, the core issues of the "left" always having to do with social justice.
So, narrowly define the "left" to one philosophical root and ignore the commonly accepted use of the term? By that I mean, the progressive wing of the Democratic Party and those organizations closely affiliated with said portion of the party.
PETA is a single-issue organization that has nothing to do with the "left". Their agenda is all about animals. Sometimes people who associate with the "left" also associate with causes like PETA but this by no means a requirement or even a dominant trend.
Are you claiming that it is virtually impossible for a single issue to be political, since they're just about a single issue?
Again, your definition of the "left" is "People I disagree with and whom I do not like".
A curious claim since you likely have little idea what I believe. I strongly disagree with many on the left and right, so this seems to be a straw man that gently veers into ad hominem.
Of course I did. The incidents of course vary wildly in frequency and in severity. Actual statistics are hard to come by however and all one can do is form a subjective opinion based on news reports.
So outside of a few examples, we have to settle for roughly "this is how it feels to me"? That's not even remotely good enough since it is subjective and is strongly fed by confirmation bias.
That would be big news to environmentalist libertarians
No one said that any organization is 100% ideologically pure. I'm sure there are some Greens in the Democratic Party and Libertarians in the Republican Party. That doesn't change the fundamental make up of the group however.
Lets compare: McVeigh's pre-occupation: power of government, guns, individual rights (his).
My apologies, you couldn't be more correct about about McVeigh. For a moment I mentally mixed up Nazi and Neo Nazi dogma. There was no political mission behind it, just a simple mistake.
Black Panthers belong to the 1960-1970s era and so well within the scope of my thesis. Also their "leftist" affiliations are murky because their main point was all about race. Some of their members were anything but "leftists".
It should be noted that we're talking about the New Black Panther Party, and not the older "Black Panthers" group that was active during 60-80's. I think I initially mistakenly referred to them as simply "Black Panthers" initially as well. The New Black Panthers are a rather recently formed group that is politically active.
This will probably have to be my last post in this thread. I'll be out of pocket starting tomorrow and won't be able to continue the discussion.
These types of discussions rarely get settled anyhow and usually ends with someone leaving in a huff. I don't feel that way at all. I trust you can say the same. "Stay thirsty my friend!"
Those are "Luddite" not "leftist" sentiments. The 'leftists' and anti-technology people have very little overlap. In fact most classical 'leftist' movements embraced technology and industry (that was what the "hammer" in the Soviet "hammer and sickle" stood for).
Time and political philosphy doesn't stand still. Definitions of left and right change with each generation as the political landscape changes. Complaining about this is like complaining about the sun rising and setting. A "classic" nazi has very little in common philosophically with Glen Beck, yet they're both considered right wing if you look at the roots of their political thinking. Is that comparison useful in a practical discussion?
Yet if you that two groups share the same philosophies political goals (perhaps they have different methods of achieving those goals or the extent to which they are to be taken), it can be said that the two groups are related to one another.
For instance, ELF strongly advocates environmental sensitivity, sustainable development, pervasive legislation regarding the treatment of animals, etc. are all shared value with many on the left. Certainly there would be profound disagreement with these groups regarding the methods ELF imposes, and the extent to which these regulations should go, but there are many share values to be sure. Along the same vein, neo-nazi's share some values (e.g. limited government and states rights) and could be placed on the same political spectrum together.
PETA? "Dogs of the world Unite!" [wikipedia.org]
PETA has funded ELF directly and prominent ELF members who condone violence. I suppose PETA isn't a left wing organization either?
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Actually, no. Look at the dates of the crimes.
The crimes listed are from the 70's all the way to this decade. I suppose you're excluding ALF / ELF and that's how you get to a dated figure.
My thesis was not that the 'left' is not involved in violence or that there is no terrorism from the 'left' historically or that it cannot be so again
I've never claimed anything to the contrary either. We're in complete agreement here. Furthermore, I would agree with you that there are many right wing groups and individuals involved in terrorist activities.
only that presently the 'right' dominates at both the violent rhetoric and actual acts of violence.
And I'm still waiting for evidence regarding "near daily" events involving rampaging rednecks. You were exaggerating for effect seemingly.
And no, Eco-terrorists and the 'left' are not one and the same.
Environmentalism is a left leaning movement which has some radical aspects. I'm not sure how much clearer that could possibly be.
If you want to disown ELF and ALF from your list, then you'll need to take McVeigh off the 'right wing' tally since his neo-nazi dogma has little to do with the US' right wing political landscape of today.
Finally, you are moving the goal posts big time. First you say that most ecoterrorists are anarchists. Then, when confronted with information to contrary, you assert they're luddites and not connected with the left.
I noticed you didn't mention the New Black Panthers trial. I don't know if that was an oversight on your part, or if you are ceding the point?
How so? The last police statement mentioned no prosecution of any kind. Last I heard no charges were even laid.
Here's the latest update on the trial I could find:
"Elston McCowan and Perry Molens face misdemeanor charges for allegedly assaulting a political button-seller last year; the defendants have pulled out the big guns by retaining St. Louis criminal defense attorney Paul D'Agrosa."
So now an anti-social hermit with a diagnosed mental disorder who lives a survivalist life-style in a cabin in the woods is a 'leftist'?
Domestic terrorists have typically been mentally ill anti-social loners who have difficulty holding relationships and tend to act as individuals. What's your point?
Wikipedia on the Unabomber's manifesto:
Industrial Society and Its Future begins with Kaczynski's assertion that "the Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race."[43] The first sections of the text are devoted to psychological analysis of various groups—primarily leftists and scientists—and of the psychological consequences for individual life within the "industrial-technological system",[43] which has robbed contemporary humans of their autonomy, diminished their rapport with nature, and forced them "to behave in ways that are increasingly remote from the natural pattern of human behavior." The later sections speculate about the future evolution of this system, argue that it will inevitably lead to the end of human freedom, call for a "revolution against technology", and attempt to indicate how that might be accomplished.
His manifest echoes the sentiments of leftist luminaries Herbert Marcuse and Jacques Ellul. His manifesto echoes left wing, environmental, anti-industrialist, and to a lesser extent Malthusian sentiments. You can't get much more left wing than that.
Look, eco-terrorists come from all sorts of backgrounds and quite a lot of them are libertarians, anarchists and the like.
Terrorists come from all sorts of backgrounds, that is precisely my point. There is generally an anarchist streak in almost all terrorists (which "frees" them to disregard human life and civil constructs). For instance, the Discovery Channel bomber, ecoterrorist James J. Lee was a human trafficker and was likely a sociopath but he was also undeniably a left wing malthusian. The two are not mutually exclusive in sick minds (Loughner admired The Communist Manifest and Mein Kampf which are fundamentally incompatible). Finally, there are major left wing groups which advocate terrorism that have been quite active perpetrating violence (PETA, ELF, BLA, etc.).
And finally, I refer you to the FBI's Most Wanted list regarding domestic terrorism. The list is *dominated* by left wing terrorists associated with organizations advocating terrorism.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/dt
Wait, I thought the right wing was preeminent in domestic terrorism? I should be seeing militia members and right wing, gun-toting rednecks? The most wanted list completely destroys the picture you have carefully been painting of right wing terror groups that dominate the terrorist scene (with a few left wing individualists).
I wonder if you will now relent and admit that both sides have their violent fringes and there are indeed many active left wing groups who incite terrorism? Indeed if we are to go by the most wanted list, it would seem that the left is far more active in organized terrorism than right wing organizations. I wonder if you will agree that I have more than satisfied your earlier request?
Perhaps if you could give us a list of all that "violence coming from the left" in the US
I presume you will accept the FBI's most wanted list fulfills this request and then some?
Err, you somehow forgot that there was a video of it. It which the entire thing lasted 2 seconds (and which begins with a SEIU member already incapacitated on the ground) and during which Kenneth was pulled to the ground but not punched or kicked and after which Kenneth walked away on his own.
I suppose that is why prosecutors are charging the SEIU members instead of Kenneth and also why many of the SEIU members fled the scene?
As soon as you present an example like the Oklahoma Federal Building bombing perpetrated by the leftists in a similar time frame, you will make your point.
Sure, the Unabomber and more recently ecoterrorism.
Wikipedia on ecoterrorism: "The FBI has stated that “since 2005investigations have resulted in indictments against 30 individuals.” In 2006, an FBI case labeled ‘Operation Backfire’ brought charges of domestic terrorism to eleven people associated with the ELF and ALF. “The indictment includes charges related to arson, conspiracy, use of destructive devices, and destruction of an energy facility.”"
Because there was no voter intimidation.
LOL! You provide 0 evidence to the contrary. you only provide a declarative statements without facts to the contrary. You merely you engage in ad hominem which hints that have no facts when you must resort to fallacious arguments.
You provde zero evidence while there is documented video evidence that was run by *ALL* the networks during the election. EVERYONE ran the footage, including CNN, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, and ABC. It wasn't just FOX so get over it.
Also, a senior civil rights prosecuting attorney with the Justice Department resigned over the issue calling the case, "the clearest case of voter intimidation that I've seen since I've been practicing law". The defendants didn't even bother to show up for their court dates. The New Black Panther defendants did not even show up to dispute the facts. All that was essentially left to do in the case was for the New Black Panthers to be sentenced when Holder and Obama pulled the plug.
I suppose they felt they would be protected by Eric Holder's Justice Department and as it turns out they were right!
This is called false equivalence. When you have to search for insignificant groups, isolated individuals I suppose the SEIU is an insignificant group composed of events from isolated individuals.
and the ancient past and compare them to Congressional candidates and their staff, a major political party, a major news network and their staff, candidates for president and vice president and the like, there is just no realistic comparison. One is essentially random while the other is a coordinated and planned endeavor.
So your position is that there is no democratic machine (SEIU, Teacher's Unions, ACORN and other similar organizations, etc.), there are no democratic candidates and their staff, presidential candidates, or networks (MSNBC is just as bad as Fox!) which coordinate in order to systematically tear down and demonize their opponents?! I went no further than a a couple of years ago (I guess that's ancient history) so none of my examples are dated in the least. So pray tell what is ancient history in ANY of the examples I've given?
In short you point out the splinter in another's eye while ignoring the plank in your own. If you weren't so blinded by your allegiance to Team Blue, you could admit to yourself that both parties have large and diverse organizations used to demonize their opponents and gain political victory at any cost. There is no false equivalence, only your dogged refusal to see the same machinery exists on both sides of the isle and is arguably more institutionalized on the left.
How about a peaceful Tea Party member being sent to the hospital by union goons during the health care debate? Or maybe the unprosecuted, clear voter intimidation brought to you by club weilding Blank Panther thugs.
You mean laughable urban legends promoted by Fox News? What about them?
Oh ok, I guess the charges filed by the county prosecutor are based purely on an urban myth.
But to pretend that scuffles on one hand and bombings and shooting rampages on the other are somehow 'equivalent' is pure hogwash.
Just a scuffle, maybe a bit of pushing and shoving? Not even close.
Kenneth was approached by an SEIU representative as Kenneth was handing out “Don’t Tread on Me” flags to other conservatives. The SEIU representative demanded to know why a black man was handing out these flags. The SEIU member used a racial slur against Kenneth, then punched him in the face. Kenneth fell to the ground. Another SEIU member yelled racial epithets at Kenneth as he kicked him in the head and back. Kenneth was also brutally attacked by one other male SEIU member and an unidentified woman. The three men were clearly SEIU members, as they were wearing T-shirts with the SEIU logo.
Kenneth was beaten badly.
That's just a minor scuffle though right? Your attempt to minimize such encounters with the gentle souls at the SEIU is clearly tainted by a political spirit. That isn't the only incident with the SEIU I could bring up, but putting someone in the hospital a few days after the President said he would hit back twice as hard is enough to start. It's interestesting that when Obama or Emmanuel engage in such rhetoric, it is merely a rhetorical flourish that would inspire no one to do anything unseemly.
Concerning the Black Panthers, while your attempt to put distance between them and the Democratic Party, is understandable it is in fact not credible in the least. While the The Black Panthers were being prosecuted for voter intimidation, they were so secure in their political protection that they didn't even bother showing up for any of their hearings! Just before these hate mongers were about to the sentenced, the Obama and Holder Justice Department decided to drop the prosecution. Essentially, the Black Panthers were under the protection of the Attorney General. How then do you say that the Black Panthers have nothing to do with the Obama political machine?
Finally, I'm waiting for you to backup your claim that attacks (and now you add bombings) by conservative rampaging rednecks are something akin to a near daily occurrence. That would be around 200 or so incidents over the Obama Adminstration's tenure.
Face it, both right and left have their radical and violent factions in roughly equal measures.
You can put away the political blame game... Among the shooter's favorite political books are The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, and The Republic (search google for "classitup10" and his youtube profile for his reading list).
Essentially you and many others in this thread have used this tragedy as a political soap box to take cheap shots at your political opponents. That is simply loathsome behavior. At least wait until you know all the facts before getting out the political knives next time.
On the other hand gun-totting rednecks on a rampage seem like near daily occurrence.
Perhaps if you could give us a list of all that "violence coming from the left" in the US that is somehow being cleverly conceal
How about a peaceful Tea Party member being sent to the hospital by union goons during the health care debate? Or maybe the unprosecuted, clear voter intimidation brought to you by club weilding Blank Panther thugs. I guess those violent groups don't exit since they're on the left and therefore must be live and let live types? There are plenty of crazies on the right, but claiming the left doesn't have its share goons and enforcers is blind mindedness.
It is amazing to me that you can, in the space of 24 hours or so, go from calling me complacent and ignorant, to a common cynic and still remain so confident in your assessment of others whom you do not know. Why not just admit you have no idea exactly what I think?
Your denial of engaging in ad hominem and especially straw man fallacies cannot be taken seriously.
common simple and easy cynicism is a poor replacement for true intelligence. your thinking is a dime a dozen, and just not very bright
Fallacious arguments (e.g. straw men and ad hominem) is no substitute for a real discussion. As far as I can tell, all you have really done in your responses is presume to know my positions (which I am virtually certain you do not) and to refuse an actual discussion. Perhaps I missed something though...
Maybe I said or did something to offend you if. If I did, I can assure you that it was not my intent but rather to have a vigorous discussion.
the false alarmist, and the false complacent, two types of fucking ignorant morons, one of which you are a shining example of
Actually, I believe that the U.S. is on the road to crumbling from within due in part to morale and cultural erosion and to a lesser extent corporatism. This is the way most empires crumble (from within) and I believe that will be the way the U.S. ultimately falls.
I'm far more pessimistic regarding America's future than almost everyone I know. I just disagree with you regarding what the major threat is.
I made no morale arguement about the Chinese autocracy, so about 2/3rds of your post is fallacious (i.e. straw man arguments). You didn't even bother trying to refute any of the points I made in my post.
A top down economy versus a more spontaneous and decentralized one is not even a fair fight to be honest. Saying I'm complacent does not even begin to understand my position regarding the U.S. economy. I am not afraid of a Chinese hegemony, it does not follow that I believe that the U.S. economy will remain preeminent. I simply believe that the Chinese economy will not dominate for a number of reasons (e.g. teetering mortgage sector, upcoming major structural transitions that will be required, etc.)
THEGODDESSOFTHENETHASTWISTINGFINGERSANDHERVOICEISLIKEAJAVELININTHENIGHTDUDE
