SGI to Build Commercial Linux Supercomputers 109
jfinke sent in a link - as did many others - to a brief Yahoo News story about SGI's plans to move into the parallel processing supercomputer marketplace with Linux as their base OS. "We're really pumped up about it," said Beau Vrolyk, senior vice president of SGI's
product group. "It represents the beginning of a whole new generation of
supercomputer."
... (Score:1)
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Great News for Linux's Future (Score:1)
Itanium ? (Score:2)
Anybody care to elaborate ?
Re: Beowulf and Itanium (Score:1)
So, how many companies are demoing computers on this chip? And w/ what OSes? (I know, I'm sure this has been gone over a thousand times, but I wasn't paying attention.)
Good Stuff (Score:1)
It's just the hype (Score:2)
It's a good thing for Linux and SGI, but not because Linux is such a good SMP OS.
OT: I have just read they are selling Playstation here in Helsinki for 700 FIM (~145 US$) Do you think it's a fair price?
Re:Good Stuff (Score:1)
b) There are already proprietary distributions. If you consider that "fragmentation" then SGI's hypothetical distro is a drop in the bucket.
c) You can fragment the Linux kernel, but if you do so you can't use the word "Linux" to describe it. Linux is a trademark owned by Linus. This would be very bad for marketing. And besides, fragmentation is rarely beneficial (as far as the technology) to either fragment. SGI would be far better off submitting code to Linus, for a host of reasons.
Re:... (Score:2)
Obviously... or maybe not.. (Score:1)
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Re:It's just the hype (Score:2)
Re:... (Score:1)
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Re:It's just the hype (Score:1)
Do you have some bits about the Playstation part?
Re:Playstation (Score:1)
[1] According to an advert I saw in a paper, anyway. Dixons?
Thanks for the reminder!! (Score:1)
But seriously, this gives me a great chance to laugh at my boss. I hope that this means new and better graphics tools for Linux like 3D studio Max and the like. Also, with SGI on board we might start seeing linux support for some of the high end rendering tools, and this will help greatly with linux multimedia development. I am just soooo friggin' happy! I won't have to reboot between tracings of my 3D models now like I do if I use an NT workststion....
~Jason Maggard
Re:... (Score:1)
Re:Great News for Linux's Future (Score:2)
I think IBM's still making money selling the descendants of that line of computers they came out with in 1963 or so (System/360's descendant, the System/390), as well as the descendants of that line of computers they came out with in the middle or late '70's (System/3x's descendant, the AS/400), so I don't expect that to happen in the near future.
If customers are willing to pay them money for boxes that aren't Linux machines running Apache, it's not clear that it'd make sense for IBM to refuse to sell them those machines. Perhaps those are all legacy machines, but it may still cost somebody less to buy a non-Linux (or non-UNIX in general) machine than to convert their application right now. (Besides, I wouldn't be surprised to see Linux and Apache - along with Windows and Solaris and HP-UX and Digital^H^H^H^H^H^H^HTru64 UNIX and... and IIS and Netscape Enterprise Server and... - become "legacy systems" some day....)
SGI & Cray (Score:2)
Linux may be full of hype right now, but if they weren't successfully with an already established supercomputing platform (ie. the Cray), how will they manage with something new.
On the bright side, even if their endevour fails, perhaps we'll get some cool new (and hopefully GPLed) stuff ported over to linux.
Dana
Re:Itanium ? (Score:1)
Re:SGI & Cray (Score:1)
The whole reason clusters are so popular is that you can build one, for (say) $100,000, with processing power equivalent to a $1,000,000+ Cray.
Of course, this doesn't apply to everything (see: fine-grained vs. coarsed-grained processing, memory sharing, etc.), but for a large number of applications, clusters are very cost-effective.
SGI and Open Source (Score:3)
A lot of SGI's products (the open source ones) are aimed as toolkits for system management, or are aimed at increasing performance and stability (XFS).
One such project is a toolkit for obtaining system performance statistics. They write the toolkit, and give it away for free, and then they write the management tool that sits on top of it, and sell that!
And how better to know just what your cluster of machines is doing, than with monitoring software? And produced by the same company that sold you the hardware? Why not?
By giving away the toolkit (and it's source), you end up with free improvements, free ports to other platforms, and toolkits that monitor stuff you may never have even thought to monitor in the first place, broadening the scope for your product.
It's a lot more than hype... (Score:5)
Even without SGI, Linux is becoming more scalable with each release. Now SGI is investing real money in the Linux kernel. They're working on projects aimed at implementing the best features of Irix under Linux. It won't happen overnight, but it won't be that long either.
It makes a whole lot of sense financially (especially for a company that needs to cut costs). They can let the Linux community take care of all the mainstream features that every OS must have, and SGI can focus on the handful of things that are really important to their particular market. Even if SGI ends up being the only maintainer of ccNUMA for Linux, it's still cheaper than having to maintain the entire OS.
The other exciting thing about Linux is the mainstream applications that are emerging. I know people don't buy an SGI box to run spreadsheets, but it's nice to know that you don't have to keep a Windows PC around just for the odd time you want to run an office productivity application. Linux lets SGI ride the wave of new mainstream developments while still catering to their niche market.
Re: Beowulf and Itanium (Score:1)
Or is it just me? Is my laziness factor above the average?
I really don't think sgi is as pro-linux we think (Score:1)
As an owner of a MIPS-based sgi, I don't think sgi is for linux/open source as much as they'd like us to think. I believe this for several reasons-for one, even on their older mips based sgis, they don't seem to want linux(with a working X) to be running on them. Also, beyond Jesse and the kernel dump analyzer tool, nothing has come out of them. Secondly, As several people have pointed out, it really is kind of stupid for sgi to sell linux-based supercomputers(see the other posts to clarify).
I hate to say it, I think sgi is using Linux as a advertising thing...
for those who say that this [sgi.com] demonstrates sgi's deep commitment to Linux, think twice...look at the status page [sgi.com], and you'll see that it hasn't been updated in months! So no progress in the MIPS version of Linux.
just a little rant and raving to make me feel better...I've been really frustrated with my IRIX box the last couple months :-(
Re:Good Stuff (Score:1)
Of course, if anyone does happen to have a Cray in their closet, I would most graciously accept a shell account
later,
hummer
Re:SGI KNOWS LINUX IS THE BEST (Score:2)
Irix is a much more robust and scalable system than Linux. This may change with time, but for the present, it is true; Linux is still lacking in the multi-processor area. And as for Enterprise, well - Irix is proven in the enterprise, whereas Linux is still be looked at as less-than-ready.
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
getting rid of multiple boxes (Score:3)
I think this is an important point.
When NT started to (self-declaredly) encroach on what had been UNIX workstation territory 3 or 4 years ago, one of the arguments that MS made on its behalf was that people wouldn't need to have a separate box on their desk for common office (read "MS Office") tasks.
This aspect is one of the things that was hyped in The Analysts' reports (Brown? IDC?) finding lower TCO for NT than for UNIX machines. Now that there are some Web-based application suites semi-available (and more poised to be really available RSN
StarOffice, for Free? Heh! Running on a multi-processor SGI sytem? That sounds just about right
timothy
p.s.(And one day there will be a funny graph of IDC opinions, with an inflection point around this year
Re:SGI KNOWS LINUX IS THE BEST (Score:2)
I've got a TNT card in my PIII, running Linux, and while it's a pretty nice setup, it's not a replacement for an SGI system. Just having a Mesa setup won't do it. You need the software and Linux just hasn't got it yet.
As for the benchmarks: Well, I trust Linux benchmarks by Alan Cox about as much as I trust NT benchmarks by Microsoft.
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Re:[offtopic]It's just the hype (Score:1)
I don't know what the average price for a PSX is in Europe, but they've been going for 99 dollars here in the U.S. for just about all year.
Ob:
It's an operating system!
It's a cynical ploy to raise stock prices!
Stop! You're both right! It's Linux!
Seriously...what is it that Linux does that Irix can't do as well or better?
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"HORSE."
Re:Itanium ? (Score:1)
Or if you're talking about breast-based computing...just imagine... a beowulf cluster...
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"HORSE."
Re:... (Score:1)
Metawulf, duh.
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"HORSE."
Re:Obviously... or maybe not.. (Score:2)
The article was pretty lean on technical details, but it did say it was talking about a cluster. I would guess they're going the Beowulf route.
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It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
Nahhhhh (Score:1)
In any case, don't forget that a lot of people within SGI like Linux a lot, and are very enthusiastic about working professionally with it. Given SGI's creativity-powerhouse culture, it makes perfect sense. I think Linux has a very good friend in SGI.
Not that that would leave you with much hope for Linux on your machine, but hey-- IRIX's cc is awesome for debugging (with -fullwarn). What other compiler will tell you "variable foo was set but never used?"
Re:Take that anti intel bigots. (Score:1)
I solicited some opinions on this recently (we're about to build a Beowulf on a fixed budget), and the (aparently) best unbiased opinion that I got was that Alpha give 2-4 times the performance of Intel, at 2-4 time the price.
Does anyone concur/demur on that opinion?
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It's October 6th. Where's W2K? Over the horizon again, eh?
Everyone wants a way out (Score:1)
It seems that when a company hits a dead end, it turns to Linux to liven up the spirit. Do they really have a great interest in Linux? Or are they just trying to save their butts?
Very sound economics (Score:2)
Whatever systems happen to scale better today, Linux and the free BSDs will scale better than anything else tomorrow, simply because there are 10 zillion developers beavering away at them continuously.
Furthermore, this continual and rapid improvement will happen regardless of whether or not SGI invest any development time of their own. The economics of this are devastatingly obvious
Furthermore, with Irix behind them, SGI have the pedigree to stand out in the Linux marketplace despite the eventual dilution created by GPL licensing of their enhancements. I doubt if they'll lose many of their old customers, and they are bound to acquire many new ones from their new and greatly expanded Linux audience.
With this move, I reckon that SGI have their future assured at least until the competition wises up and catches up, and as long as their marketing, pricing and distribution is similarly forward thinking. But that of course remains to be seen.
Re:... (Score:1)
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Re: Beowulf and Itanium (Score:2)
SGI recently finished a Beowulf for the Ohio Supercomputer Center, and has put it on display at SC99 before actually delivering it to OSC. 128 Xeons for computation (32 SGI 1400L's, each with 4 Xeons, with one more 1400L as an admin node; Myrinet interconnect).
Since Itanium hasn't actually been released yet, I expect anything anyone debuts in the near future built around Itanium is only debuting 4-color glossies. But, that is the first step before debuting an actual product built around a brand-new processor.
Christopher A. Bohn
Re:... (Score:1)
SGI and LINUX (Score:1)
Specifically, the fact that Alias|Wavefront is putting out a Maya render engine for LINUX tells me that graphical tides are turning. An editor cannot be far behind. And I have been very happy with the Alias and SGI combinations I have worked on in the past. If the quality and robustness of graphical interface is there... 'twould be nice!
Re:wtf r u doing trashing alan cox? (Score:1)
But don't mistake me -- I still don't consider him an objective source for benchmarks. It's nothing personal, but I'd rather see it done by someone without a vested interest.
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Re:Are you calling Alan Cox a liar in public? (Score:3)
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Parallel / concurrent programming (Score:2)
No offense intended here; this comment is meant to be about 25 deg C, and is just a clarification for what seems to be a common misconception.
No application can make use of a parallel computer without a programmer first identifying the inherent concurrency. There are pre-processors that attempt to do this for you, such as BERT 77 [plogic.com], but IMO that cannot replace the intuition and basic understanding of the problem that a human programmer provides (with all due respect to Doug & everyone else at Paralogic). Once that concurrency is identified, then implementing it using the MPI or PVM API, or using HPF directives, or using pthreads (depending on your platform) should be fairly straight-forward.
Computers are not magic! You cannot feed a program written for a sequential computer into a parallel computer and expect speedup, period. At run-time, the computer just doesn't have sufficient view of the application to even attempt to identify the concurrency for you, and it certainly doesn't have the cycles to spare to decide what aspects of the concurrency should or shouldn't be parallelized. The best you can do if you won't or can't parallelize your code is to submit multiple instances of the application, with different inputs, to the batch scheduler and obtain a greater throughput.
Christopher A. Bohn
Because Linus Said So! (Score:1)
I've got the feeling that SGI and Linus are well in communication.
scalability and SGI's big-boy computers (Score:1)
I'm thinking in particular of the Blue Mountain machine at LANL -- this was/is a big set of SGI Origin 2000 boxes; I don't actually remember offhand, but I seem to recall that they ran Irix, etc, and used typical MPI message-passing crap for most applications. Never mind. Anyway, point is that there were some problems with getting a linear performance increase on the machine as more and more processors were added; we're talking, incidentally, of thousands of processors. Some problems were to be expected -- clearly it's naive to expect totally linear speedup as you increase the number of processors, even for extremely well parallelized code. But some of the things we saw were just ridiculous -- there was, for instance, a sort of catastrophic breakdown at about 4000 processors; this has probably been solved for some time now, but not without an awful lot of work being done to do so. For some more info about this, check out this page at LANL [lanl.gov], among others.
Don't get the impression, btw, that I'm against SGI getting into this area -- I happen to like the company quite a bit, think they have some extraordinary products, etc etc. I'm just a little wary these days when I see them talking about massively parallel machines.
Cheers.
Threading and scalability (Score:1)
Linux is at a major disadvantage here... it only supports course grained/one-to-one thread mapping (one thread to one process). More scalable systems, like Irix and Solaris, use a many-to-many mapping (groups of userland threads mapped to multiple kernel threads/processes).
Is there any plans to correct this deficiency?
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"A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will deserve neither and lose both."
Re:Very sound economics (Score:1)
It may be true that Linux and the BSDs will scale to this level of system in the future, but it will be due to companies like SGI spending lots of money funding that development work.
Personally, I don't see how SGI's new-found Linux enthusiasm is evidence of an economically sound strategy. Re-implementing big iron features of IRIX for for Linux is going to be costly and time-consuming.
But, I think that SGI is after the applications that will run on Linux, and believes that it's worth it to fix up Linux to run on big machines in order to get access to that application base.
Re:I really don't think sgi is as pro-linux we thi (Score:3)
I don't think that MIPS/Linux is a priority for SGI. They see MIPS/Irix at the 'top' of the market, and Intel(x86 and itanic)/Linux at the 'bottom' but moving up over the next few years. They know it's coming, and they'd rather spend resources to influence its development than be a passive by-stander as they are with NT. So, they feed features and ideas from IRIX into Linux, while continuing to sell and maintain the high-end IRIX systems as long as there's still a market (which consists more of corporate uses like automotive crash-test simulation than of TV and movies).
He also said that several of SGI's customers want Linux, and want certain features in it (like raw I/O for big databases). So, SGI either helps develop this and keeps the customers, or loses them.
The XFS filesystem is one of their major contributions, and he said that one of the main delays there is that they are going through the code to remove any sections that could cause patent headaches in the future. One hopes the result will be slightly more usable than the initial Mozilla...
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disclaimer: these were my impressions of Dr. Mashey's talk; they may or may not actually represent his views, which may or may not be those of SGI.
Re:Itanium ? (Score:1)
"... message passing as the fundamental operation of the OS is just an excercise in computer science masturbation."
Re:I'm about 150 feet from a Cray (Score:1)
Did you get the motor generators with the machine? They are big (and *VERY* *VERY* loud) generators that generate the 400hz power that the Cray's use. They are always kept in a nearby room with serious sound insulation.
Does anyone else see this... (Score:2)
Re:I really don't think sgi is as pro-linux we thi (Score:1)
I understand that maybe IRIX isn't the best OS around from a security standpoint, but as a workstation OS for a single user, is absolutely peerless, with only BeOS and the AmigaOS coming close (although I have no first hand experience of Solaris, I'd be happy to add it to the list).
Re: Beowulf and Itanium (Score:1)
Re:Nahhhhh (Offtopic cc warnings & SGI compiler) (Score:1)
braveheart.UK$ cc -Xc notused.c -o notused
braveheart.UK$ lint notused.c
argument unused in function
(3) argc in main
(3) argv in main
set but not used in function
(5) foo in main
braveheart.UK$ cat notused.c
#include
int main(int argc, char** argv)
{
int foo = 1;
return 0;
}
Missing the real story... (Score:2)
Two big firsts on IA64 for Linux and I think it's a great indication that Linux will be the first released OS for IA64.
Some more info:
sgi's announcement [sgi.com]
Project Trillian [ia64linux.com] which is porting the linux kernel to IA64.
Re:Does anyone else see this... (Score:1)
I think from SGI's view point is that they want to focus on the scaling department and leave the rest (common code like device drivers etc) to the Linux community. Eventually it should be a win-win situation when Linus and co see their changes worthy to be merged into main tree. Who knows, may be they can help improve Linux SMP performance on the way. They're the experts, isn't it?
Linux _KERNEL_ fragmentation? (Score:2)
Yum! (Score:1)
Just took a look at the original press release
Christopher A. Bohn
loose the cube logo (Score:1)
Re:... (Score:1)
Molly.
MODERATORS MARK PREVIOUS DOWN AS A TROLL (Score:1)
One last thing, I've got enough balls to post with my identity; only scared little liars are afraid of standing behind what they say.
Re:SGI and LINUX (Score:1)
My view on the SGI Linux effort on Intel is that they're trying to do exactly what's been mentioned here: grab mindshare (and thereby marketshare).
This is the image that they want to put in your mind: a spectrum of machines, rangine from your desktop (you're running Linux on your desktop, right?
Finally, I don't think SGI is spending money on Linux on MIPS because they understand the Linux community: if the Linux community at large really really wanted Linux on MIPS, they'd make it. If there were a loud movement that said "yes, we do want it but we need more information to make it sweet", I could see them coming across. Open Source = good business for them.
Finally finally
Re:I'm about 150 feet from a Cray (Score:1)
Hear hear... (Score:1)
Re:Hear hear... (Score:1)
with a bit of effort Linux wiull probably surpass it. Anyone who'd been considering
buying SGI will now go to someone who's 100% behind their systems (and I'm sure
there will be many current customers who'll shift because of this as well). Idiots.
I don't necessarily think so. For one, "a bit of effort" is prolly going to turn out to be a year or two, and most people buying workstations will need their solutions solved now.
Re:Very sound economics (Score:2)
The resources available to the average developer are irrelevant. What matters is that just one good developer has them available, and the lesson we've learned from Beowulf is that not just one but a lot of developers will find themselves suitably resourced.