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CPU Cooling Insanity 319

moonboy writes "I saw this over at Ars Technica. This dude submerged his entire motherboard in mineral oil. As if that weren't enough, he then and got a 5,000 BTU (window?) unit and circulates the oil through the coils to keep it all cool." Don't expect Gateway to be offering these any time soon... I suspect it will a bit more than just void your warranty. It'll probably make motherboard engineers come to your home under cover of darkness carrying loaded shotguns :)
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CPU Cooling Insanity

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    Many motherboard makers clean their motherboards with water since CFC are illegal now for this purpose (otherwise the resin left from the solder paste eventually corrodes the connections).

    I actually saw this at a tour of Intel's motherboard factory. It was really weird feeling to see a chain of motherboards in a conveyor belt being taken for a dip. Of course they use de-ionized water, the motherboard itself is not powered yet (duh!), and they immediately go into a dryer after their water bath.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    This will be a silly question, I suppose. But from what I've seen liquid nitrogen do, once the material is taken out of the nitrogen, it's as brittle as a thin sheet of glass. I'm wondering just how safe this would be for the motherboard, with all the materials (fiberglass, copper, plastic, aluminum, etc...) contracting at different rates, would something not crack? If you immersed it slowly would that help? And last, but not least, if the material is as brittle as I figure it will be when removed, won't the motherboard break the first time you try to upgrade a card in a slot?
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Couple of thoughts on your design.

    You may want to make the 'super cooler' case larger, (so that any water that does devlop will be on the bottom. Then place your mother board on some sort of standoff...ie: expect the water, just work around it.

    Then, if you add some sort of valve at the lowest point in your 'super cooler' case, you could then drain off any water condensation that develops. Check with an airplane junkyard or some place like that, pilots have to go through this same sort of stuff all the time.
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Some houses use liquid cooling systems instead of conventional air conditioning. You could fit your house with a liquid cooling system using oil, and redirect one of the pipes through your computer casing :-)

    Liquid cooling systems are typically used because they are very silent. The only thing I heard of the cooling system where I used to worked before, was a slight sound when the system was just turned off, and the pipes were being filled with liquid.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    >This guy had fans on the thing six ways to sunday
    >then says he never had the cover on. Hello,
    >covers speed up the airflow, they keep the thing

    Alas, your theory doesn't match up with reality.

    Keeping the case on with standard case designs doesn't allow for proper intake or exhaust. What happens is that the air inside gets warmer and warmer. It works as the opposite of an air conditioner -- the fans blow air over the heating element (CPUs) which eventually warms up all the air inside the case.

    If you're using a motherboard with temperature sensors you can check it out. My CPUs went up about 10 degrees Celsius with the case on. You definitely notice the difference when you take the cover off -- you can feel the much warmer air escaping.

    Actually TRY it some time and note the difference.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @07:52AM (#1874880)
    Its not a sealed system. You'd think condensation would fry it within a few minutes of operation.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:34AM (#1874881)
    Fundamental law of nature: when theory and experiment conflict, experiment wins.

    On my case (Enlight mid-tower ATX), I get a drop of 5C if I take the front of the case off, and more if I take the side off.

    The problem with the front seems to be the stupid little holes that are supposed to let air in for the front case fan are way to small.

    If I run everything by the book according to Enlight, the motheboard temperature will be 25C over room temperature, and on warm days that is enough to go over the 50C limit in the BIOS.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:36AM (#1874882)
    I'm curious, why not put an anhydride (sp?) on the bottom (eg. sodium ) to collect the water? Or some of those little crytal package things that come with electonic stuffs?

    That way you could just replace it to remove all the water.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @12:57PM (#1874883)

    I would think that the acetone would start attacking the solder mask, plastic packages and seals on the electrolytic capacitors. 3m makes a thermal transfer fluid for electronics called fluorinert.

    (see http://www.3m.com/market/in dustrial/fluids/refheat.html [3m.com])

    This stuff is really expensive. I used it years ago on power amplifiers and it really works. You can submerge the entire circuit without problems and it transfers heat like a champ.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @03:41PM (#1874884)
    I used to work at a supercomputing center at my university. We had a Cray YMP-2, (manufactured circa 1991) which used Fluoroinert as the coolant. It was about $100 a gallon, but absolutely non-toxic, and worked well. The story goes that Fluoroinert was originally developed by a medical company as an artificial hemoglobin substitute. Someone from Cray noticed its electrostatic properties and the rest is history. Our main sysadmin once quaffed a glass of the stuff -- said it was tasteless.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:23AM (#1874885)
    Why would it be a problem if the power supply or the hard disk fell in.
    If you take for granted that the oil conducts as much as air, you can submerse anything in it you want.
    The hard disk is sealed anyway, so no oil could get in there.
    And as far as the other parts go, everything that can be exposed to air should be able to be exposed to oil.

    I saw another post of someone worrying about a thin layer of oil insulating the jumpers.
    Well, for the same part you could worry about a thin layer of air insulating jumpers in a regular setup.

    This is really a brilliant idea, since the oil conducts heat much better then air. Maybe one day we'll all have liquid submerged pc's.
    Actually, pc-makers would like this, because you'd have to buy the liquid from them, and they could make it impossible to get hold of the liquid unless you're oem, therefore forcing you to return your pc for any upgrade. Finally a way to control us completely, even better then intel's not-so-secret pIII tag.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:50AM (#1874886)
    The electronics on some deep sea submarines are encased in mineral oil. Though immersing electronics in oil might sound strange, it is not an uncommon practice. Here are some research papers on the topic:

    A Dylan hacker
  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:28AM (#1874887)
    Raleigh, NC -- When Joe Celery upgraded his home computer system, he ended up with a machine that was hotter than he bargained for.

    Joe Celery was a member of an elite group of computer enthusiasts that call themselves the "3l1t3 0v3rCl0cK3rz Gu1Ld". The group's focus is a technique called "overclocking", which is a technical term for running a system faster than it is rated. Some overclockers do it to save money, but many, like Joe Celery, overclock for fame.

    "I started out with a [Intel Corp. Celeron(tm)] 450A [300A processor overclocked to 450MHz," Mr. Celery stated in an exclusive interview from his hospital ward. "Sure, it ran Quake II real fast, but that wasn't enough. So then I tried watercooling."

    Using approximately $500 worth of supplies, including copper tubing and a small air conditioner, he managed to get his computer to run as fast as one with a Pentium II chip that cost almost $300 more than his Celeron(tm) processor. It would process millions of instructions per second for as long as an hour before crashing.

    He continued, "it was an incredible success. But I just wasn't satisfied. I wanted more." His next exploit involved a stack of Peltier cooling elements, flat devices that electrically transfer heat from one surface to another. The Peltier elements allowed him to crank his watercooling setup another 10%, to match the performance of a Pentium II chip costing $500 more than a stock Celeron. It used only $300 worth of Peltier elements, as well as the original watercooling apparatus.

    Celery was markedly silent on how, exactly, he ended up in the hospital. After half an hour of prodding, he finally admitted what his latest creation was: "I tried to cool my system with hydrogen gas. It worked, until my hard drive spun up."

    The resultant explosion caused approximately $15,000 worth of damage to Celery's neighbors' homes, notwithstanding the destruction of his own home. Analysts estimate the amount of damage was greater than the damage possible if a Pentium III Xeon chip costing $1000 more than Joe Celery's Celeron(tm) chip was used.

    Celery left us with this final comment: "my next computer is going to be a Macintosh."

  • Is this thing grounded? As I recall, incorrectly grounding certain equipment can really screw up things, because It doesn't know what voltage to use for binary zero. That, as I recall, is one of the reasons all cases are made of metal, and most mobo's are connected by at least one metal spacer.
  • Yeah, I worked at SGI in Chippewa last year as an intern. If you're ever in the mood for a road trip, I'm suggest visiting the Chippewa Valley Industrial Museam -- they have a bunch of the older Crays on display and the tours are given by some of Seymour's original cronies. The old Cray 1 and 2's are quite interesting, from back in the days when computers still were literally wired (as opposed to printed on circuit boards)...


  • Posted by Matt Bartley:

    There are a couple of liquids which you might consider for your cooling to avoid the liquid problems. The one I would look strongly at is acetone.
    Better use a different container. Acetone will dissolve that styrofoam container instantly.
  • by Masem ( 1171 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:57AM (#1874895)
    If you go back to the link on the end of the URL
    given, he's got the overclocking info: according
    to him, a AMD K6 300Mhz overclocked to 500Mhz
    and working fine based on the one shot with
    the computer on and the cooling bath going full.
  • I got tired of replacing these cheap CPU fans that keep dying on me (Do they *all* suck?). They don't seem to last very long and they don't blow a lot of air onto the heat sink. So I mounted a squirrel-cage type blower above my CPU. 10X the airflow of a regular fan; no condensation problems (unlike peltier or liquid [pick your favorite gas] CPU cooling); and still quiet. I'm not trying to overclock, but even stock stuff gets hot in my non-airconditioned room here in Las Vegas where ambient room temp reaches 100+ sometimes. Check it out here [ucla.edu].
  • I'm skeptical about the hard drive, but I know that the fan can't go it. Oil may have the same electrical conductivity as air, but it sure doesn't have the same viscosity. I'm guessing the power supply fan would make it about four rotations before it bogged down and poped the fuse.
  • I was wondering at first why ultra-pure water wouldn't work better, given that it would probably transfer heat faster. But are there any bits on the motherboard that would corrode?
  • Check your hard drive for one of those 'Warranty Void if removed' stickers. Press it with your finger _gently_. It depresses. There's a hole there normally sealed from dust etc by the sticker. I've seen this on several (older) hard drives, although I can't comment on the very newest ones from the manufacturers.
    This explains the altitude thing mentioned above.

    I would also be worried about the prospect of any coolant fluid destroying the integrety of the glue holding the sticker down. But I'm ignorant in this area of chemistry so I don't know if mineral oil would be a problem here.
  • No, the oil will not hurt the connections. We use special grease at work to protect high current connections made of aluminum and other metals. It is necessary to prevent oxidation. Oil will not hurt this application, unless it chemically breaks down into basic carbon compounds.
  • Last year, I made a discovery at the paint section in a closeout store. Among the paint cans was a case of "Flux and circuit board cleaner" and it caught my eye. The ingredients listed trichlorotrifluorethane (freon!) and methylene chloride. At 88 cents per can, I got the case. The had no idea what they were selling!

    The stuff does wonders for cleaning boards in ultrasonic cleaners. Its magic!
  • Mercury is used in some high current relays. If you want an industrial relay where the contacts just don't wear out under a heavy hammering, its the way to go.

    The only problem is when they retire, they have to be disposed of in a sealed rubber lined steel drum approved by the EPA. It has been said that one drop of mercury can destroy a whole lake for things like fishing.
  • At the bottom of an aquarium? Clear epoxy. Some types of outdoor and industrial transformers are filled with epoxy and sand as a filler. They are impervious to water and dissipate heat well. Get it by the can!
  • I enjoyed reading the comments about people afraid placing thier dream machine in oil. We get to play with high voltage and mineral oil at work. In a high voltage test chamber where we can crank the probe up to 150,000 volts at 5 amps, we make place the connections in large, clear lexan (plexiglass) cylinders filled with mineral oil. The oil bath is a nice insulator and helps keep the joint cool, which is important.

    I have heard a story where the joint was poor and not enough oil was in the container (at another location, not where I work!) When another object was under test, the container of the poor connection exploded in a HUGE fireball and the explosion viewed through a window. That must be the reason why high voltage rooms are made of many layers of metal.

    Mineral oil is a great conductor of heat. It flows and moves heat away from the source.
  • Actually, this is done with TIG welders. Many TIG welders have a seperate coolant supply you hook up in addition to the main welding power supply. The welding "cable" is actually a set of skinny plastic tubes that run distilled water over the wire. Without the circulating water, the cable burns in a shower of blue flame. I had the opportunity to replace a few of these cables when the operator failed to check the coolant level.
  • Another place to consider getting iron cases for surplus would be an electric motor rebuilding company. They are in most cities. They have all the other essentials, such as transformer oil, epoxies, enamel, insulating standoffs, etc... You might even be able to pick up one of those iron boxes with the cooling fins on the side from the scrap iron bin. They would look cool and sure to dissipate all that extra heat your CPU can manage.

    Who knows, you might be able to fit the air conditioner in the same box and seal the whole contraption. Some of the boxes have jacks on the outside for instrument hookups allready there! Many possibilities! (Be the first on your block to have a computer that is fireproof, armor plated bullet proof, resistant to nuclear blasts, and EMP!)
  • Another way to make diamonds is using an acyteline cutting torch and cut a slab of iron. I believe it was someone at a steel manufacturing plant where it was discovered that the slag edge where the sheet was cut was hard enough to instanty dull a large bandsaw blade. The story I hear is that they had an engineer check it out and found the floor where the cutting was done had a layer of very fine diamonds in the soot. Unfortunately, a process could not be made to sort through it cheaply.

    What this means is that it is unwise to take a bandsaw or drill next to slag.
  • I may work in unusual conditions as I have seen anything catch fire. Perhaps mineral oil is very safe as a coolant.

    I wonder what the flashpoint of mineral oil is. I use synthetic oil in my car due to it having a significantly higher flashpoint. I tried to burn Mobil-1 with a propane torch once. An oil that needs at least 75 more degrees to burn is less likely to break down and do evil things.

    I must just see extreme conditions. Put it in a demanding application where it cools a poor electrical connection at 5 amps from a 150,000 volt load and it can explode in a colorful fireball. Water will do the same thing too if the hydrogen is allowed to accumulate.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:46AM (#1874917) Homepage Journal
    The only problem with the power supply in the oil is that if on of the parts, such as a capacitor decides to self destruct, it could spray oil and sparks into the air. Not likely, but not fun to think about either. If you work with oil where there is potential for high releases of energy, an iron case would be ideal to contain any mishaps. Lets say I would not leave this unattended in my house and might be comforted by a fire extinguisher that works...
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:01AM (#1874918) Homepage Journal
    Coating whole circuit boards with diamond might be indeed possible and for less than what you might think. There is a vapor process used for tools where a thin layer of diamond crystal are deposited on the surface over time. Its slow, but there are means to do it. [rice.edu] This method may not be ideal for circuit boards yet, it might be ideal for semiconductors when they are manufactured.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:17AM (#1874919) Homepage Journal
    Thermal expansion is a real problem in the real world. If you ever had a television that you had to hit the side of it to make it work or clear the picture, you could be facing an expensive (but very easy) repair. Televisions and power supplies usually have areas on circuit boards that get very hot. When they see many power on/off cycles, the expansion tends to cause the soldered joints to crack and become loose. If the loose connection is a conduit for large currents, the resistance will make it even hotter and boil the solder away from the joint. Several years ago, 50% of all television repairs had this problem (I used to fix them!)

    I have seen a $450 repair bill for repairing a projection television where a few joints needed soldering. Your repair bill may be calculated with this equation: worth/2 and the justification is "repaired or replaced high voltage power supply." When you can repair ten of these in a day, it is a lucrative business. Nowdays, most devices that have high current areas are better engineered with rivets and extra solder in critical areas.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:55AM (#1874920) Homepage Journal
    Yes, we have a water cooled 500Kwatt tube at work in a 400KHz induction welder [thermatool.com]. It is powered by 8,000 volts DC and we use distilled water to cool it.

    It has quite a protection circuit too, just in case something goes wrong. Since the tube is not much larger than a kitchen blender, an interruption in the water coolant might be unforgiving. There are dozens of flow rate sensors that make sure the water keeps it cool.

    The output of the tube is fed into a transformer that is actually copper tubing with flowing distilled water. The final output is the induction coil, or just a few wraps of water cooled copper tubing.

    It has analog and digital computers to make adjustments and proper welds. Quite a fun machine. You would not want to ever wear a wedding ring or have your car keys on you if you walk up close to it. It will turn anything metal close to the coil white hot in a second.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @01:38PM (#1874921) Homepage Journal
    I was thinking about what you can dip a 10,000 rpm drive or a whole computer in: enamel. Our 400 horsepower DC motors that see 600 volts have the windings protected in this way. Enamel is flexible, tough, protective, and is insulates against electricity, yet it can transfer heat quite well. Its durable and can take abuse. I have seen DC motors under high voltage work in wet conditions without fail.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:37AM (#1874922) Homepage Journal
    Speaking of liquid nitrogen making things brittle and shatter, once I was in a chemistry lab late one night when an evil cockroach happend to skitter across the floor. Well, we scooped the bugger up and let him join the fun in our flask of liquid nitrogen.

    Yup, he was instantly converted into a deep sleep. Then, we tossed the baby and his bathwater onto the floor in those pretty balls of steam as liquid nitrogen is famous for. The cockroach landed in two peices. He eventually woke up and couldn't find his feet!

    Has anyone ever tried to run an electronic circuit in temperatures that cold? I suspect the doped regions of transistors would behave differently and have different gain characterstics. I'm not sure a computer would compute.
  • by dattaway ( 3088 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:33AM (#1874923) Homepage Journal
    At work we have two types of transformers: open core and oil filled. The oil filled are much smaller and can handle voltages a magnitude higher up to 150,000 volts at a few megawatts 100% of the time due to the circulation and insulating properties of the oil and large heat fins. The open air type transformers a much larger and require natural convection and only see 14,400 volts. The only advantage of the open air might be the large magnetic core to dampen voltage fluctuations.

    Needless to say, the oil filled transformers are sealed to prevent contamination of the oil and prevent oxidation and cumbustion. If they are ever overheated, the oil tends to break down over time, lose its dielectric properties, and eventually short. Some oil filled transformers have large fans on the heatsinks to keep the oil at reasonable temperatures.

    I'm not sure what blend transformer oil is for our applications as we have a contractor repair our damage, but you can get it in 55 gallon drums. I'm sure any other oil, including mineral oil would be just fine in this application (provided moisture does not contaminate the oil over time.)

    I could imagine a much "prettier" setup where the case is made of painted iron, closed, sealed, and painted. Then lower the freon pressure in the air conditioner to allow much lower temperatures when the gas expands inside the coils.

    Then people might think this is cool and not be offended by the "scraps of styrofoam" and parts laying around everywhere. Looks like a prototype to me...
  • Well Jobs has also been stupid in pushing the fanless design at times. The most famous case was the Apple III. Most people haven't heard of the Apple III, which is understandable, as it was overpriced, poorly marketed, competed against the IBM PC (this is several years before the Mac came out) and had to be recalled due to massive heat problems.

    Basically, ICs were popping off of the board due to thermal expansion/contraction cycles. The field techs were instructed to lift the CPU a couple inches up, then drop it to reseat everything.

    When the Apple III was brought back onto the market some months later (IIRC 9 months) it had an impact no greater than a comet the size of a chiuaua's head.

    As for the original Mac, it worked alright drawing cold air through the bottom with the low-pressure of hot air rising out of the top. To facilitate this however there was an aftermarket product, which I believe was called the Mac Chimmney. It looked like a tin woodsman's hat, stood a foot or two high, and worked pretty well despite being silly.
  • by Jim McCoy ( 3961 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:32AM (#1874926) Homepage
    Sorry, but a vaccuum is a perfect insulator. The only way your motherboard would be able to get rid of hid would be to radiate it as IR. The big problem in space travel is not keeping things warm, you have several humans generating kW of heat to do that, the problem is getting rid of the heat. That is why the space shuttle has to open up the cargo bay doors as soon as it gets into orbit, to radiate away heat. If the doors don't open they have to come back real quick or else you end up with braised astronauts.
  • The best part of my new Quantum 6.4GB drive isn't the size or the access time, but the low noise emissions. The difference over my older 2-4GB drives is amazing.
  • by Mawbid ( 3993 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:19AM (#1874929)

    ...they don't do it like this. This story isn't so much about the results as it's about some guy pushing the limits of sanity :-)

    In fact, this story doesn't even mention how much the guy was able to overclock the damn thing. Can we have that bit of information, please?

  • by Mawbid ( 3993 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:02AM (#1874930)

    This is only half-way on topic, and perhaps it should be on ask-Slashdot, but here goes:

    I want the latest and gratest CPU, mainboard, and 3D GFX card AND I want them silent. Less noisy is good, real quiet is better, but what I really, really want is total silence.

    That's why this cooling method appealed to me at first -- it looked like it might be really quiet. Fans pushing air around are noisy, but with liquid you avoid that. Then I saw the pump and the air conditioner and figured they'd probably be anything but quiet.

    Am I alone in my quest for quiet computing?

  • Okay, so it might not be too practical for everyone, but I was thinking that you could just submirge the whole motherboard in liquid nitrogen in a good vacuum-insulated container. I would assume that the chemical properties of nitrogen don't change when it's in liquid form, so it would be non-reactive and non-conductive. Then, the only problem is continuously replacing the nitrogen which boils off due to CPU heat (room heat would have little effect in a good insulated container. Any thoughts?
  • One other thing about mercury... it boils at relatively low temperature, and you just don't want to have to deal with mercury vapor...
  • Here's an idea on silent cooling... evaporation. Evaporation is a exothermic process (gives off heat) and thus is a cooling process. So if you immersed something (like the cooling fins on the CPU) in a cheap liquid with low vapor pressure (perhaps methanol) then the temperature of the fins cannot increase beyond the boiling point of the liquid while the liquid remains. You could then construct a reflux system to allow the methanol vapors to re-condense and return to the cooling fins. Just another thought!
  • by jsholovitz ( 4243 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:04AM (#1874934)
    Two good points raised.

    First, how will the heat be let off. One way is by keeping the system at atmospheric pressure by allowing excess pressure to escape. That would release heat by evaporation (boiling) of the nitrogen. The other way is to keep the system at high pressure to keep all of the nitrogen liquid; the heat would then need to be replaced through a heat exchanger of some sort.

    And as for why nitrogen vs. helium, it is much easier to obtain large quantities of liquid nitrogen; liquid helium is more expensive to obtain and requires more-expensive containers to keep it liquid (high pressure) at room temperature.

    But since I work in a chemistry laboratory, I have lots of access to liquid N2, but we only have enough liquid He around to cool off the NMR magnets...
  • by jsholovitz ( 4243 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @12:20PM (#1874935)
    There are a couple of liquids which you might consider for your cooling to avoid the liquid problems. The one I would look strongly at is acetone.

    Yes, the stuff smells bad, but it will remain as a liquid (and not get gooey or gelataneous) down much colder than -30 or -40 C... I use dry ice/acetone baths all the time, and it's still very much a liquid at -70C.

    It's immiscible with water, so you won't have any water-contamination problems, and any water that hits the cold acetone will instantly freeze.

    Although it has a relatively high vapor pressure at room temperature (i.e. it smells bad) the vapor pressure isn't nearly as bad at cold temperatures, and you won't smell it at all. And you won't smell it anyway if you have a cover on the case.

    So anyway, you have my vote to use acetone as your cooling fluid.
  • Here's a place I've found that has various devices for making computers quieter. Everything from vibration absorbing HD mounts, to quiet fans and power supplies.


    I've also been happy with how quiet IBM harddrives are. Even the 7200rpm ones are very hard to hear.
  • Instead of using the pump and air conditioner, you might be able (a bit of work, though) to build a capillary system to use the adhesive/cohesive properties of the coolant to induce a sort of gravity driven flow of the coolant. I'm not sure that mineral oil would work well with that, though, but there are other non-conductive fluids out there that would work better. Someone mentioned the low thermal transfer qualities of mineral oil earlier, so that would be another issue.

    Beyond that, I applaud Dr. Freeze for the innovation. It opens up a lot of ideas.

    The obvious issues are component installation and upgrade, as shutdown, removal, cleaning, install, and reset of the containment system aren't exactly convenient.

    What electrical issues are raised by extending expansion slot connections, ala bus cable extensions? I know that may not be a very good idea where SIMM/DIMM slots are concerned, but (overkill) a vacuum sealed slot cover would be good in keeping the coolant off the slots.

    As a more focused approach, what about 5 1/4 inch drive casings for 3.5 inch drives, implementing a similar setup? I have a pair of 10k rpm scsi drives that get HOT.

    Coolant flow over just the processor heatsinks is something that I see has been done, as well, but there's applications in that, as well. Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea for something you could plug into an empty 5 1/4 inch slot. small pump and coolant reservoir, transfer tubing to and from a top-sealed heatsink. Heat exhaust could be aided with a heatsink or cooling fan on the reservoir, running hot oil to the front of the chassis for external dispersion, drawing cooler oil from the rear of the reservoir.

    Okay. I thought for five minutes. I'm gonna stop now. =)
  • by billn ( 5184 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @02:15PM (#1874940) Homepage Journal
    I posted earlier, but it's been rattling around in my head, so I'm gonna rattle some more thoughts out.

    The a/c unit is noisy. I can't vouch for the garden pump. My original thought was a capillary system, which wouldn't work well with viscous coolants. Well, not at any kind of speed. You could get a capillary system to work, but you could spoon it faster. I'd think submerging the pump as well would silence it fairly effectively, not to mention the a/c unit.

    There have been several ideas for this tossed about, including freon and liquid nitrogen. The problem with those? Maintaining the coolant system, and keeping it loaded. Alcohol would work, except for the 'Great Balls of Fire' factor. What about synthetic motor oils? The ones with lower viscosity ratings, or geared for high heat environments, would be a better bet. The thermal transfer qualities are undoubtedly higher than those of the mineral oil.

    'Son, have you seen those two quarts of 10w/30 I bought for your mom's car?'

    "Uh, no, Dad, sorry."

    One reply to my original post suggested an enamel casing. Taking this a step further, why not sheath the motherboard in clear flexible rubber or latex (Trojan condoms, eat yer heart out), and doing some fancy work around the expansion and memory slot, and then injecting coolant in one corner, and drain it from the other? I'd think this would lend itself better to a more managable self contained environment, that makes upgrades easier to cope with.

    Alternatives to that still include submersing the entire motherboard, but using some kind of bus cable extender to give you use of the expansion slots, and some funky modification to 'ram expanders' to raise your memory chips out of the goop.

    I'm still rather keen on the singular application of an enclosed reservoir and circulation mechanism cooling just the processor heat sink, in a kit just the right size to fit in an 5 1/4 inch drive bay.

    Still thinking.

  • Remember that things contract when they're cold, and since boards are made of a variety of materials, you'll have a problem with warping and subsequent mechanical/electrical failures.
  • After reading about a guy who had his computer components hanging from the ceiling as some kind of mobile, he mentioned his next trick was to put the computer at the bottom of his fish tank. This got me thinking about something you described. What kind of polycarbonate crystalline substance (i'm not a chemistry person so i'm guessing here)could we encase the motherboard and all cards so that it is an electrical insulator and yet conducts heat away very well? Unfortunately, you'd have to be pretty sure about the jumper settings before encasing the board and immersing it. However, give this guy some kudos for using mineral oil for I was still thinking of mere water. Those of you out there with the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics blah blah blah what would the best substance to immerse it in?
  • by Jeff Monks ( 6068 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:13AM (#1874944)
    Its not a sealed system. You'd think condensation would fry it within a few minutes of operation.

    The bottom of the page says he's working on the second iteration, which will submerge the coils completely and resolve the condensation problem, so yeah, he must be getting some water in there, and is apparently aware of it.

    Since oil & water don't mix, it's likely that a small amount of water in the system wouldn't be much of a problem, as the thin layer of oil covering everything (eeeeww...) would probably insulate the components well enough. But run the thing long enough, and you'd have a gallon of water in the thing, and that might be a bit much...

    If it was me, I'd send it back in under warranty (oozing oil all over the place) just to hear the response...

  • I don't think that if this is standard sometime in the future it would have complete MBs under coolant. If liquid cooling is required in the future (looks like that), probably the motherboards would change and everything that emits heat (CPU, RAM, graphics?) would be seperate and then put into a cooling box. After all, not everyone wants a fridge on his desk :-)
  • In all seriousness overclocking benchmarks aren't all that concreete. The most informative thing imo is the abount of heat removed. The whole I got this to go up this much by doing this, well I'm much more interested in what you did that you had control over than how good the manufacturing of your cpu is. The fact remains that processors vary widely in overclocking ability over a particular line and the raw numbers don't really help me all that much. It's kind of like the theory behind checking VIN numbers on a car to see if it was built on a Friday or a Monday and avoiding them, you just don't know enough to base the decisions on the overclocking numbers. Now a good thermometer, those numbers I could use.

    Net. Admin.
  • by Jonathan C. Patschke ( 8016 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @07:56PM (#1874958) Homepage

    Anyone here remember when Slashdot readers used to have a sense of humor? Does anyone here remember when the absolute in technical accuracy (and spelling correctness) weren't required by posters? How many people here have viewed Slashdot for more than a year?

    Okay, I expect this post to be moderated down to a (-1, Offtopic), and, you know what, I don't really care! If I have to, to get my point across, I'll post this damned reply to every submitted article here. I want people to remember.

    I remember when the whole moderation thing was up for debate. Remember that? The loudest of us were so ticked off because of MEEPT (probably one of the greatest joys here at Slashdot) and "First!" posters.

    What have we now? Someone makes a humorous post, and it gets a negative mark. Someone makes an obscure mark (The Seymour Cray remark above), and it gets moderated down and up because some clueless newbies can't make the connection or don't deem it "news-worthy".

    I, for one, think that this "cure" is worse than the "disease". Moderation has gotten out of control. Feelings are getting hurt, and Slashdot is turning into MSNBC.com or ZDnet, or some other place where only "good" feedback is reported (by default). Look what we've lost! Those of you who think we have won a "real" news source, you probably think that when Macromedia releases a new 42.7megabyte version of Flash so that you can download a rotating daisy animation, the web has "won", too.

    Okay, so maybe I'm not ESR, maybe I'm not RMS, maybe I'm not anyone other than someone who really happens to believe in Open Source as more than a buzzword or a way of getting people to contribute free code. No one blesses my words, but if you truly understand, they won't have to. At least hear me out.

    Offtopic, am I? Maybe I am, maybe you can't see the connection. This has gotten way out-of-hand, and Slashdot has sold its soul to the public, the masses, the same people that bitch when Open Source upgrades are "late", that bitch when Linus releases bug fixes immediately, "making" them have to upgrade their kernel every few weeks, the same people that whine when their ISPs won't install FrontPage extensions because they lack the mental endurance to learn HTML.

    In short, SlashDot has sold out. Maybe we should start moderating articles and banner ads and links while we're at it? I realize this is Rob's site, but he led us to believe him a visionary, one who was one of Us, one who wouldn't sell out. If he were, moderation would either be unheard of or would be across-the-board for posters as well as readers.

    For those of you who remember, let's all have a moment of silence as Slashdot passes from a mature forum in which humour and knowledge resounded side-by-side, to a kindergarten where only people with Gold Stars get their posts shown to new viewers and those of us who don't have cookie-enabled browsers (I'm a Lynx user, 70% of the time).

    I'm very saddened by this, and I'll miss Slashdot a lot. It's a sad thing when Slashdot turns away the very target market that caused it to grow to its large size in the first place. Slashdot is now chic and trendy just like Slate or Wired.

    We all worried that Slashdot would turn into Usenet. It seems that it's drifting towards the very opposite extreme. While, yes, the posts are still viewable, they get branded as "unsuitable". Now they get branded "why" they are "unsuitable".

    So, call me a (-1, Offtopic), and just see if I give a flying fsck. Slashdot is dead. It has sold its soul. Perhaps we'll start seeing Kiplinger "Hacker" backpack ads or Microsoft Ergo-mouse banner ads at the top of the pages now?

    Those of you in power who remember, I urge you to turn back this trend before you lie in sick disgust at what you have been swayed into creating. Or, at least make the default setting to "Moderation Off".

    The following sentence is true.
    The previous sentence is false.
  • Sure, it will freeze, but is that actually a problem?
    • Expansion/contraction when changing states would probably crush/desocket most of the motherboard in the first few cycles
    • I would also guess that the specific heat of ice is much lower than liquid water
    • Circulation to prevent hot spots becomes a problem (imagine the CPU melts a quarter inch of ice from the block that it's in, then the water leaks away, how do you get more water/ice against the chip? Even if you do, see #1 again... :) )

    That's what I could think of off the top of my head anyways... ;)

    IANAPM (physics major) tho....

  • by scrytch ( 9198 ) <chuck@myrealbox.com> on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:02AM (#1874964)
    > But are there any bits on the motherboard that would corrode?

    Copper. Now you don't have pure water either.
  • by scrytch ( 9198 ) <chuck@myrealbox.com> on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:10AM (#1874965)
    This guy had fans on the thing six ways to sunday then says he never had the cover on. Hello, covers speed up the airflow, they keep the thing COOLER.
  • Mineral oil. It figures.

    For zillions of years, power-line transformers have been cozily bathing in mineral oil (with or without PCBs).

    Somebody was bound to make the breakthrough of adapting that method to computers...

    But it I would do such as stunt, I'd simply immerse the whole shebang in a pressurized container with freon, going through a compressor and regulator and evaporator... Just like they do in modern high-speed (electric) train controls...

    -- ----------------------------------------------
    Vive le logiciel... Libre!!!

  • by JoeyLemur ( 10451 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:15AM (#1874972) Homepage
    First it was cabinetmaker, then plumber... :)

    I currently work for Network Computing Services, a supercomputing center in Minneapolis that used to be part of Cray. A few months ago, we shut off our Cray-2, which use dimmersion cooling: all the components were submerged in florinert that was kept at around 45 degrees farenheit.

    Modern Crays just run coolant through metal plates, which cool the chips. Its amusing to think that Cray T3Es are just piles of DEC Alphas hooked together.

    You all would do well to look up the history of Seymour Cray and his systems, for a nice perspective on cooling and overclocking. :)
  • Antifreeze would kind of affect the purity :)
    How about pure alcohol? I don't know what
    its freezing point is, but vodka stays liquid
    in a normal freezer.

    Ahh, a 200 proof vodka cooled computer!

  • See title. I may not know what I'm talking about, but isn't this stuff denser than water? I know that the chunks of sodium they had at my highschool were kept submerged in mineral oil to prevent them from touching water. It wouldn't make much sense to do so if any water in the oil would form an impossible to remove layer on the bottom of the jar.
  • by ds3708 ( 16482 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:30AM (#1874992) Homepage
    Pure water is used to cool many of high-power vacuum tubes. Anodes of these tubes are located in vacuum, inside of metal-glass container, and water circulates inside of anode, through channels. Oil is too dense and would not come through fast enough. The resistance of pure water is high, it easily withstands tens of kilovolt. The radio transmitters I looked at were in range of hundreds of kilowatt (AM broadcasting). Parameters of water were monitored all the time, automatically, and distillers were on site as part of the whole setup, complete with heat exchangers and fountains outdoors - no problems whatsoever.
  • Well, if you don't want to overclock, and you want total silence, you really do need a totally passive cooling system, right?

    I actually don't know how well mineral oil conducts heat; I do know that water 'stores' quite a bit of heat, but this is not necessarily a bad thing.

    If you were to use a large enough bath of mineral oil, the oil will definitely suck up heat as long as it's cooler than the components.

    Now you'd need some really seriously weird casing for the system; it would need to be a huge heat sink, with larger surface area than volume, if possible. *Everything* would be in contact with the oil, and the case would then be a heat exchanger...

    So like you'd need thin aluminum fins *within* the case and aluminum fins outside the case; you'd need more outside fins because air would conduct heat less efficiently than oil, I think...

    For an entire system submerged in mineral oil, you could employ a high torque low velocity fan that makes little noise, because it needn't move fast to move the oil, just move a lot of it. Like maybe 3rpm, or 10rpm, for example.

    Then you could have a really low noise cooling system!


  • If all you want is a low power CPU with decent MHz rating, and don't mind Linux, BeOS, or MacOS, you could always go for a Mac, right? Or an iMac?

    I hear that Jobs doesn't like fan noise, either, and kept that in consideration with the design of the iMac.

  • by Anonymous Shepherd ( 17338 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:45PM (#1874998) Homepage
    Some real problems with using water:

    Someone mentioned that it would freeze, and I'm not sure if anyone knows just how good an *insulator* ice is...

    Eventually, if you cool your system below 0C, the entire water bath would become ice...

    Some don't see any problem, and I may just be paranoid...

    But some components *can* approach or exceed 100C, especially if overclocked... Like CPUs or video card chipsets, I think. Now the problem would be that any ice in contact with warm components will melt, so there are pockets of water within this ice cube... But it's guaranteed that the water will remain at 0C as long as it is in contact with more ice...

    However, there is something called a triple point, at which ice, water, and vapor can exist all at once.

    If the ice forms a complete seal around the system, it may be possible for there to be ice that goes to water which goes to vapor... And you'd have an extremely bad case of melt-vaporize-condese-freeze, with the accompanying expansion/contraction problems, and I imagine there could be explosive cracking within the ice, much as an ice cube does when dropped into a warm soda...

    With fragile components in slots/sockets, this might be very bad =)

  • I have ones of those pumps for a water cooling system I'm building. It's silent. The AC is probably somewhat noisier. You could remove the compressor from an AC system and use just the heat exchanger. See this link for a water cooling design http://www.agaweb.com/coolcpu/default.htm

    With no moving parts except for a submerged pump, and the hard drive in oil, you have a modern system about as quiet as the come.
  • Uh - there's a company who's been doing this for a while. Kryotech makes AMD systems cooled to -47 Celsius. http://www.kryotech.com
  • by Hunter Rose ( 18860 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:50AM (#1875004)
    >How about inserting the motherboard into a
    >freezer with some kind of humidity control to
    >eliminate condensation. That way you could
    >overclock the entire system bus.

    Essentially, the idea is to replace standard atmosphere with something that conducts heat as well or better and can be cooled more effectively,
    AND is inert/non corrosive/non electrically conductive, right? So why not a pure nitrogen atmosphere? Of course, having a sealed unit would be a pain.
    Pure antifreeze? Rubbing alcohol? (Things
    that wouldn't freeze solid.) (Baby oil == mineral oil plus fragrance.) Of course, the problem with 'water'-cooled anything is the pain of the maintanance.
  • by Schafer ( 21060 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:05PM (#1875010)
    I've gotta disagree.

    The dielectric constant is not important as a standalone figure. The capacitance is a function of the dielectric constant and the distance between plates. The air (or mineral oil) side of a PCB trace goes some distance before coupling. In fact, the only meaningful coupling increase might be to adjacent traces, creating increased crosstalk. Remember the other side of the trace is looking at about 0.06" of FR4 (dielectric constant of about 5) to the next layer, which should be ground below impedance-controlled traces. The incident-wave height should not change due to this. Changes to the FR4 material's thickness and/or dielectric constant would be much more siginficant.

    BTW, this got me thinking about the system's bypass caps, so I checked. Tantalums will only drop in capacitance by about 8% at -40C(or F) and X7R ceramics will be about the same. Z5U ceramics will drop more, but not as much as if they were running at +70F. A quick search gave me no info on low-temp characteristics for electrolytics, but most are spec'd down to -40 or lower.
  • Hams have been making dummy loads with resistors in mineral oil for years. Heathkit made one from a one gallon paint can that could sink 2Kw of RF for a few minutes, lower power for longer.
  • by whimsy ( 24742 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @04:31PM (#1875014)
    Paper has a lower dc, doesn't it? I suppose you could use liquid paper? :)
  • by delmoi ( 26744 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:19AM (#1875018) Homepage
    that conducts heat really well...
    heh heh :)

    I think the main reason he wanted minral oil was that it didn't freez at -40C. you could only use de-inozed water to cool to 0C. The propertys you want would be: Low freezing point (less then -60C), large heat capacity, and an insulater
    Chad Okere
  • From memory pure H2O conducts, due to the auto-ionisation of water. Sure, it's only 1.0E-7
    molecules per mole, but it is _something_

    Another thing is that unless the water was vacum-sealed, O2 and CO2 would dissolve into the water from the air (and other nasties) and add some impurities, making it conduct and be very slightly acidic.

    But I could be wrong. :)
  • by ThePlague ( 30616 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:28AM (#1875024)
    Yeah, I wondered about that too. Apparently the guy didn't understand conventional cooling methods, so decided to try something completely different.

    Mineral oil? It has a very low electrical conductivity; otherwise, the board would short out. However, it also has a very low thermal conductivity, which means the components not directly in the garden pump path are probably net effect being heated.

    There's also the pressure problem. What's the MTBF while being hit with 170 gallons/hour? MB components weren't designed, nor were they attached, with that kind of abuse in mind. My suspicion is that he'll get a critical failure inside a week of continuous use.
  • by a.out ( 31606 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @07:52AM (#1875027)
    So I take it that Mineral Oil has a Very low conductivity. If not, would the small amount of electrical loss(?) outweight performance.

    It is very interesting indeed, I have water cooled reciently but what are the advantages of submersing the motherboard over just cooling the exterior of the chip? I know the obvious cooling advantage, but is this worth it?

    It would be nice to know the results (speed increases, cpu temp etc.)

    I could just see the power supply falling in, or even worse the hard drive.

    Dr. Ffreeze has more guts than I do.
  • by thales ( 32660 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:58AM (#1875028) Homepage Journal
    It will work better. I was a radar tech in the Navy, and the SPS-49 radar uses a water cooled klystron. Pure water has very low conducivity. We had no problems even though the klystron is powered at 40 KV. Corrision wouldn't cause any problems because water dosen't cause the problem, electrolyss caused by impurities is the cause of corrision. The drawback is keeping the water pure. You have to perform daily checks for water purity and have extra water on hand for changes. A far simpler way to keep any air cooled device working is to keep it clean. We used air filters and cleaned the filters once a week. The inside of the equipment was cleaned once a month. We also kept the equipment in air conditioned rooms, with the temp set below 70. You could get some dryer vent hose from the hardware store and duct air from the vent directally to the air intake on your PC.
  • I can't believe that I had to slog all the way to the bottom before someone mentioned the most obvious caveat in doing this! Mineral oil, alcohol, acetone, what do they have in common? They're potent oxidizers! They'll eat anything organic. Wait until the oil (or whatever) eats through the styrofoam and dumps itself onto the carpet. It could be really fun with the more volitile stuff, let it drip down to where there's a pilot light, then wait for the vapor pressure to build...

    Of course you could get to find out how long a PC can run after the PC boards delaminate and the plastic packages melt. After it does quit, you could sell it as high-tech art. I see the potential for making real profit on this!
  • Actually, conductivity of mineral oil is not that great. But it can hold much more specific energy. I.e. To head up one cubic inch of oil absorbs much more energy than heating up one cubic inch of air. This means that oil can carry away much more heat, if you make sure that the fluid has a proper flow.

    A typical application for mineral oil as a coolant is to cool transformers for high-power overland power lines. This technology has been in use for decades.

  • by Gorth ( 35695 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:15AM (#1875032)
    No, the oil is less dense than water. The sodium is submerged to keep it from reacting with the moisture in the air, if one pour some water into the jar with sodium and mineral oil, then the water would sink to the bottom and react with the sodium
  • Ah, but think... we could put the mainboard up on plastic stilts... and then have a release valve at the bottom to let off the water...

    Damn, this is ridiculous :)


  • But then, who needs a fan? You could crack the PS case and disconnect it...


  • Even worse, the oil could start seeping into the connected cards, since they aren't held into place firmly. With motions of the cards side-to-side, I'm sure there will be conductivity problems. Not immediately, but soon enough...


  • Actually, it depends on the case. For reasons that seem intuitive (hot PII for lunch, anyone?)but really don't work out, Intel originally spec'ed the ATX housing such that the P/S blows air directly on the CPU. Any such housing that I've seen gets hot.

    Fortunately, many ATX cases ignore that spec and blow air OUT in the back, and some of them even have fans in the front to blow air in. Such designs generally leave the system cooler, since there is proper airflow.


  • Almost every contact would start to corrode because of
    the electolysis! You would end up with a filthy smudge (well
    that's what I remember from when I was a kid).

    -- Ewald
  • Since oil & water don't mix, it's likely that a small amount of water in the system wouldn't be much of a problem

    Well the water will sink to the bottom right where the motherboard is and it will cause mayor problems.

  • "Distance between plates" only applies in a 2D situation. A wire in space still has a fair bit of capacitance per unit length -- in fact, if you recall your intro physics, SPACE has a fair bit of capacitance. Electromagnetic signals don't actually travel through conductors, they travel through the space around them, and increasing the dielectric constant of that space (eg mineral oil or FR4) slows the signal at sqrt(epsilon) while lowering the line impedance by the same amount.

    For more on this subject, you might want to pick up a copy of Howard Johnson's excellent High Speed Digital Design: A Handbook of Black Magic [prenhall.com]

    Bottom line: in high-speed circuits, the space around the conductors (and its dielectric properties) is *very* important even if there aren't any other nearby conductors. Of course, there are -- which is why I mentioned crosstalk, too.
  • by overshoot ( 39700 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @03:04PM (#1875047)
    ... and though I hate to chill the enthusiasm here I have to point out that my handle is exactly what anyone doing this is likely to get: overshoot. Mineral oil has a dielectric constant of about 3 instead of the 1.0 for air, and that means that the surface traces on the MB will be both slower and lower impedance than they are designed to be.

    Incident waves from the ICs will be smaller and may not make threshold, termination will be mismatched, there will be reflections from every change of layer, signals will take longer to get across the board, you end up with clock skew, and crosstalk will increase.

    Most of these effects won't cause immediate failure. Or even frequent failure. Maybe just enough to make the system run like it was on Losedoze.
  • Am I alone in my quest for quiet computing?

    Well, I don't know about everybody else, but I've gotten so used to having my box running all the time that I usually can't get to sleep if it's turned off.;-)
  • by aaronl ( 43811 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:17AM (#1875057) Homepage
    Either way, liquid cooling using N or He isn't really feasible for almost anyone. :)

    Definitely true, cost would be ridiculous for using helium. A liter of 3He is about $100,000... but an interesting idea!

    The N2 solution would be incredibly less expensive, but still, the required components for containing, cooling, and safety would probably be quite a lot of money!

    Think of using something like this with some high-output TEK (Peltier) panels... that would be quite a cool[sic] system.

    (NMR.. yummy ;-)
  • by EEPROM ( 50820 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:19AM (#1875066)
    That guy has a good idea, but he seems to have overlooked that if he removes a card, a thin layer of insulating oil would form over the connections, and it would be near impossible to clean it off.

    If you just wanted to overclock the CPU, you could mount a peltier on the CPU, put a thermistor (sp?) on another part of the CPU, and built a simple thermostat that keeps the CPU at just the right temperator. That way you don't have to worry about condensation if the CPU halts for some reason and the peltier supercools it.

    How about inserting the motherboard into a freezer with some kind of humidity control to eliminate condensation. That way you could overclock the entire system
  • by British ( 51765 ) <british1500@gmail.com> on Saturday May 29, 1999 @08:03AM (#1875067) Homepage Journal
    Q: Why don't the British make computers?
    A: They could not figure out a way for them to leak oil.

    While it may be looked at as cooky, Dr. Freeze might be onto something. This working prototype looks as sloppy as ever, but I'm betting with some more design(and more importantly, testing on not-so-pricey hardware) he could have a cool(but not right now cool lookign)setup.
  • by Dr. Ffreeze ( 54841 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @09:58AM (#1875084) Homepage
    Hello All,

    The second box will be completed on Tues I hope (if I stop ICQing everyone AND stop responding to all of my emails). :)

    Dr. Ffreeze

  • by Dr. Ffreeze ( 54841 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:13AM (#1875085) Homepage

    I have softmenu. Abit BX6 Rev. 2. But I have removed cards and put them back in with no problems.

    Dr. Ffreeze
  • by Dr. Ffreeze ( 54841 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:09AM (#1875086) Homepage
    Hello All,

    I can't wait until I get to work on my site. Work and such. This project was for me and so was the web site. I was just tinkering. I talked about it and no one listened or said that I was crazy. Ok. Not a problem. BLAM. 20,000 in on day! Questions out the wazoo. I will answer all emails but it will take some time. I WILL be updating with some benchmarks (dugh). I will get very detailed if the desire to know is out there. I am still in TESTING. Box 2 Tuesday 5-31-99 should allow for all out AC operation with no worry of condensation. Box 2 will come complete with LID!

    Dr. Ffreeze
  • by Dr. Ffreeze ( 54841 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @10:24AM (#1875087) Homepage

    Might I share a bit? "Didn't understand conventional cooling methods, so..." Not true. Not true at all.
    True. Very True. I am still in testing. The web page was mostly for my tinkering, otherwise I would (and will) offer MUCH many explinations. The 170 GPH pump is temp. Box 2 will allow the coils to be submerged in the oil.
    Pressure? Not when the oil gets cold. It's like Mapel Syrup on a cold Winter day. I knew that I needed TONES of capacity if it were to pump the oil when it got to extreme temps. I was wrong in that the pump (or any for that matter that would fit) is not strong enough. I will have to look at other ways to agitate the oil.
    Possible suspicion, but faulse. 3 weeks and running. :)

    Dr. Ffreeze

    PS. Not trying to be rude.
  • Hello All,

    Thin layer of oil has not caused a problem.

    I wanted to overclock my CPU and Video card. Many also overlock the fact that the RAM and therefore the FSB (front side bus) will be able to be overclocked. The lock on Intel sucks though.

    Dr. Ffreeze
  • by Dr. Ffreeze ( 54841 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @11:34AM (#1875089) Homepage
    Hello All,

    Some quick info.

    Who an I?
    Average Joe overclocker, a bit extreem, a dreamer, and a bad spellar.

    Why did I do this?
    Always wanted to cool it a bit more but hated condensation problems (still have em but not for long). I love to learn and tinker. The concept was simple.

    Why do I not tell any good info of cpu or new speed?
    Long story short. I have talked about this type of thing for years (even on Tom's list server). No one paid heed unless they said that I was crazy (true). I have my own web page (blah). Out of two years I have about 2,000 hits. Guess who's homepage my site is? Me. So most of them were me hitting my own site. I took some pictures and tried a Kodak digital service. I also was trying to learn some FrontPage98 on a server that supported FrontPage Server Extensions. Posted pics. Mailed pics to Voodoo Extreeme, HarOCP, and talked on Ace's Hardware. No bites except for an offer IF I gave an exclusive. No dice. I wanted any and all to learn, look and question. EverQuest and something else made me have to reformat my drive (forget). This caused me to loose my web site access (new). I started tinker on designing some concrete lined speakers and crossovers. I got home from work and BLAM. 4,600 hits!!!!!! Wow!!!
    5 news sites! WOW! Email and tons of it. I started answereing them. I tried to update my site explaining the speed and such but I had problems (still do).Time for bed (I run a 225,000 sq. ft. super store at night). I got up and 11,500 hits! :) You saw a spring in my step! Here I am STILL not updating my site or siliconing my box 2! (I had some good talks though)

    What the HELL speed are you at?
    Retail Celeron 333 MHz
    Fan Heatsink 416 MHz
    Liquid cooling 416 MHz (WHAT?!?)
    The quick is that until I get the coils submerged in box 2 (that I need to start) I will not be able to run the AC non-stop. :( In a "dry test" (no oil) I got down to -38.5 C, but frost stoped me yet again. I got to 10 C or 12 C (NOT negitive) when I noticed ice forming and powered down.

    What are my Gaols?
    See my web site and kick my arse if I don't update it 6-1 or 6-2.

    Eamils are all welcome. I will help anyone in similar interests.

    I hope this clears some things up,
    Dr. Ffreeze

    new site

    old site
  • by A4Joy ( 54907 ) on Saturday May 29, 1999 @06:02PM (#1875090)
    Another interesting thought might be the use of a perfluorocarbon, which is a free-flowing liquid down to -100 degrees Celcius, non-toxic, and has tremendous heat-exhange properties--check out more information at the following address:

    http://members.tripod.com/~Chemo_Gnostic/cryobio .htm

    Also, for another similarly mad overclocking example, look at:

    http://www.cpusite.examedia.nl/sections/steve/su percoolin.html

Fear is the greatest salesman. -- Robert Klein