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Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund 151

freejack writes "Here's an incredible story of how one Linux user got his money back for the Windows pre-installed on the laptop he bought. He used the fact the Microsoft Software License Agreement allows you to return the software if you do not agree to its terms."
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Australian Linux user gets Windows Refund

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  • I smell a rebate coming my way...


  • Class actions can be useful, but it depends on what it is you want. If you want to get some cash, forget it. The lawyer(s) will get nearly half of whatever settlement is arrived at, and the rest will be split among the plaintiffs. It will amount to cents per person, if that.

    If your intention is to stick it to Microsoft and set a precedent, then that might well be worth doing. A lawyer might well be willing to try if there appears to be a reasonable chance of winning, for the reason mentioned above. It could be like hitting the lottery if they won.

  • Posted by Mephie:

    I've worked in support so long I have: Dos6.2, Win3.1, Win95 retail, OSR1, OSR2, OSR2.2, NT4.0 Server, Win98 OEM Full and 2 copies of Redhat 5.0.
    Didn't have to pay a dime for any of the MS ones (and I even have licenses for them), bought one of the RH, got the other from a friend.
  • Posted by HolyMackeralAndy:

    Right On! I will definitely do this with my next new system (however, by thetime I buy it I may be able to get Linux pre-installed).
  • Posted by BeOSMan:

    That is correct, the EULA does say that the software product and the computer are a "single integrated product" However, this is highly contradictory to the line directly above it (in my EULA anyway) which states:
    "The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed as a single product."

    It could be argued that the EULA does not agree with itself, and hence could not have been written on a microsoft operating system. :)

    It could be argued that this invalidates the EULA in its entirety which would cause ownership of the software to revert to you and all liability on the Manufacturer's behalf to be released.


    It could be argued that since, from a logical standpoint, it is impossible to truely agree with a license agreement which contradicts itself all users of Microsoft Operating systems were forced agree with something which made no sense in order to use the software they purchased with their computer. Thus it would seem every user of all Microsoft Products would be entitled to a refund or a sensical licensing agreement.

    -Jason Stiles
    Check out a cool OS at:
  • Posted by FelixM:

    I have recently contacted my Attorney General in relation to the MS-EULA dispute. The letters [cyberramp.net] are posted at http://www.cyberramp.net/~dfalksen/eula/. Feedback welcomed.

    http://www.cyberramp.net/~dfalksen/eula [cyberramp.net]
  • Posted by Electroid:

    You can't get a refund on Internet Explorer, it's a free product. lol
  • Glad to see it. Perhaps I will use this strategy in the future....
  • Wow, now THAT'S a damn good idea!

    I wonder how well that would go over in the states.
  • Way to go... now that's a way to send the signal. No more MS! No more MS! No more MS! heh.

    hassle the hardware dealers
    demand no os on new systems drives
    support Linux-only system sellers
    Boycott the MS tax - no taxation w/o representation: I vote no for MS on my hdd!
    Now, all I need is money to buy a new system.
  • A new page at http://linuxmafia.com/refund/ [linuxmafia.com] has been established to coordinate Refund Day for the San Francisco Bay Area, provide information for the expected press coverage, etc. The goal is to have an organised, efficient, and friendly refund visit to Microsoft's business office in Foster City.

    By the way, whoever set up the "thenoodle.com" site is really on the ball. He linked to the linuxmafia.com page even before I asked, or even told him it existed.

    Rick Moen rick@linuxmafia.com
  • For the shrinkwrapped bundles, you usually have the EULA attached or visible through the shrinkwrap. Opening all of that up supposedly implies agreement with the EULA.

    For pre-installed software, however, the EULA appears on-screen before you're allowed to do anything. (I believe.) Pressing "I agree" (or whatever) indicates your acceptance of the EULA. There should be a printed version included, however.
  • ...probably.

    There is the whole principle of the matter, but still...
  • Shrinkwrap licenses are invalid in the US. See 17 USC 117 [cornell.edu] and D. J. Bernstein's commentary on the matter [uic.edu].

  • ... if hundreds of thousands of Linux users around the world started doing this and donated the refunded money to the FSF, XFREE86 or other worthy projects? ...


  • Time to find that book with the license in it
  • why not specify when you purchase yr machine NOT to have windows...I know when I purchased my last win box I simply requested windows NOT to be on the system, just DOS :) hence I didn't have to fork out any dosh for M$Windows ?
  • Since the illegal M$ tax can now be avoided on laptops, I can consider buying one this year. Though the email for refund battle appears to be less convenient then buying the CPU(s) and componets to build another desktop system.

    Fresh Plan: find cheap Toshiba Libreto in back of Computer Shopper or pricewatch.com. Purchase via mail order to avoid state sales tax. Grind out series of emails to get a refund for the M$ tax.
    Could be an an attractive option for about $500.
    Happy happy, joy joy!

  • That is great! It's a good thing he DID put a lot of effort into getting a refund for software he didn't want. Hopefully this will not only prompt others to do the same, but wake up companies such as Toshiba to realize that the end user doesn't always want sucky software with a new PC.
  • Actually, on this side of the Atlantic, any PC manufacturer including an OS that the customer did not explicitly request could be taken to court.
    Article 85 of the Treaty on the European Union clearly states :

    " 1. The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the common market:

    e.make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts."

    Clearly, the customer who buys computer hardware should be able to freely select which software is installed on it, prior to the conclusion of the sale.
  • The email from Toshiba is the best evidence that MS imposes to buy their software in a monopolistic, anti-competitive way. Is there a way to send this story to the DOJ lawyers ?
  • Is there any way to tell "which" license an OEM uses in advance?

    The license language could change vendor to vendor, and it would be nice to know which ones were this flexable.

    I know you can order Linux systems from companies like VA, iDot (by special email ammending of order) and others, but if the license says you open the UPS container you agree to the license, you're $#|+ out of luck...

    The OEM gets stiffed by MS on this one too: every Win95 license I have seen specifically says "licensed for THIS computer", meaning the license is not reusable when returned. That, and if you buy a new OS-less computer later on, you can't legally install it on the new machine -- even if you delete the old installation or physically move the old hard drive into the new system.
  • You might be able to do this with Apple -- they DO sell hardware with Linux installed.

    Your real question is do you get a discount ordering "without OS"? I don't know the answer to that, but you can pursue it if you want. Apple did that "Customer Focus" thing on the Linux/Apache webserver running on their G3.

    Yes, before some rude AC points it out this is not "without an OS". But it may be "without being charged for an OS". Check with the Education store, or someone at a school's admin department may have a real human Sales rep at Apple you can call..
  • Just was intalling yet another Gateway today. I read /. just before, and payed REAL close attention. It was worded identical to the guy with the Toshiba in the story. So, in theory.... 8)
  • I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else planning on buying a new system anytime in the next couple of days can let us know about their progress through the same process. I might be more tempted to buy a machine from a manufacturer that allows this than one that doesn't- can everyone here let us know how it goes?
  • I bought a computer from a local dealer.. www.microbiz.net here in vancouver canada. And i bought it without an OS with no hassle. he asked do you wan't windows98? i said no. And he knows its going to be a linux box. So he didn't charge me.. and also a couple other dealers around here have no problem selling without the OS.. is this a canada thing?
  • Unless I'm mistaken, this means I can go purchase
    an E-machine for $399 and get a ~$100 refund for
    not using Windows on it?

    Aw, yeah!
  • For years this has been the only part of the Microsoft monopoly that has
    bothered me. If consumers can truly choose between operating systems when
    purchasing a computer and they freely choose Windows "en masse" then I have no
    problem ceding the desktop operating system market to Microsoft.

    But consumers have no such choice and the current arrangement should have been
    declared illegal long ago because Microsoft isn't simply supplying the OS as
    part of their own Microsoft brand computer. Another company makes the box and
    forcing a consumer to purchase a third party product is like forcing me to buy
    and use Sharp food products with my Sharp microwave. That's criminal.
  • This little incident offers us a piece of information that would be nearly impossible to obtain by other means:

    Toshiba is paying $110 Australian for each copy of Windoze.

    An interesting gambit would be to pursue refunds from other major PC manufacturers, thereby getting a map of who's paying what. Could be very revealing...


  • I have an NEC laptop that came with Win95 preinstalled. I never got a refund for Winblows (is 1.5 years too late?) but I'm wondering if the NEC laptops that VA-Research (or other linux vendors sell) originally ship to THEM with WinBlows on em??
  • I especially like the "please state the manner in which you deleted the software" part... I'm sure the lawyers were giddy with anticipation of denying his request based on the fact that he MUST have booted it up in order to delete it, and hence, had already used the software...

    "Dear sir.. I used Red Hat Linux to delete all partitions..."

    WooP! I love it!
  • If they restrict it to a full hardware refund,
    people can use it to upgrade their machines cheap!

    1. prevent software refunds
    2. prevent hardware upgrades on-the-cheap
    3. prevent the OEM's from getting PO'd and
    demanding a new deal on the licenses.

    MS can't do all three.
  • Good morning folks,

    If one of you were to buy a SUN or Apple computer in the near future, please ask them to remove the OS and stress that you wish to use an alternative free OS. Namely Linux, Freebsd, or whatever you feel.

    This is the way to go..
  • As most people know by now, when you purchace a PC with Win9x pre-installed, you get that nifty shrink-wrapped Windows manual with the EULA. Provided you don't open this package, your refund may await.

    However, having worked for Radio Shack, I've seen several systems come and go, and the systems as of late are packaged with the power cord in a sealed baggie with an Acceptance Agreement on that bag.

    Hummm.... To use the computer (in any way, even to install Linux from your first boot), you have to open the bag to use the power cord. Oops, you've just accepted M$ licence agreement. No refund.

    Have a nice day.

    Of course, just grab another power cord from somewhere else ;-)
  • Actually I believe that the MS contract requires Toshiba to pay MicroSoft a fee for each laptop shipped. But this doesn't mean that the contract is exclusive, it just means that if you want a computer with say FreeBSD 3.0 then the manufacturer (Toshiba) must still pay the MicroSoft fee even though none of their software is on the machine.

    Definitly NOT an exclusive, contract but perhaps indeed an anticompetetive one. This is a long standing MicroSoft tactic, and I believe was even used in the old DOS days.
  • Copyrighting a post on slashdot? Doesn't that seem to go against the ideas behind open source & copyleft?
  • About $70 US at the moment, I think.
  • the EULA also states that ...

    The SOFTWARE PRODUCT is licensed with the computer as a single integrated product. The SOFTWARE PRODUCT may only be used with the COMPUTER

    This seems to rule out the option of acquiring a refund on the windows license without getting a refund on the entire computer. However, this clause does look rather fishy, and it would be interesting to see how such a clause would stand up in court. I am personally surprised that Toshiba did not cite this in their letters.

    Anyway, it's an interesting case. I always wondered what would happen if the "refund" part of the EULA was put to the test. Hopefully, this will incite more people to start demanding refunds on their windows licenses. If nothing else, it will make the OEMs notice us ...

    -- Elflord

  • If Toshiba is like Compaq, they will also include diagnostics tools on the hard disk. (On Compaq Armada's hitting F10 boots to a 15M DOS partition that contains various utilities to configure CMOS settings and the like). Even though this may not using a Windows OS, it does use DOS and hence is probably licencable software.

    Are you prepared to lose the diagnostics as well?
  • I agree,that approach should work
  • It turns out that there are some local laws here in Saskatchewan, Canada, that ensure you can get your refund, even if M$ or the manufactuer refuse:

    The Consumer Products Warranties Act (provincial) states among other things that the retailer is responsiblle for carrying out *all* guarantees and warantees, including implied performance guarantees, stated by the manufactuer.

    So, if you buy a PC bundled with Windows that has an MS EULA stating that Windows can be returned for a refund, you can return it to the retailer and force them to give you the refund immediately. They may fight you, but it's the law here.

    I suggest everyone check their local laws, as I suspect many other provinces and states may have similar laws +/ statutes.

  • So, I sent an e-mail to Toshiba Canada expressing my distaste for their business practices, and I got a phonecall back from someone there. Over the course of the conversation, he let it slip that everywhere in Canada, Toshiba now puts the EULA on the powerswitch, so that you cannot turn on the computer without agreeing to the EULA.

  • Just a couple of quick comments...

    First, all of the brand name PCs that I've seen advertised include not only some flavor of Win32, but also include Office and a whole host of other applications that we supposedly want on our PCs. If we're going to get a refund for the software that we don't use, we might as well get a refund for all of the software and not just the OS.

    Second, I worked as a support Bob [1] for one of MS's outsourcers. I took calls on DOS and Win95. One of the things that was stressed in our training was that if the customer was not satisfied with the product even after using it then it could be returned for a refund. I even used that on a couple of calls, but (sadly) don't remember the address (nor can I find where it was written down) for dissatisfied customers.

    [1] Search on DejaNews[2] for the alt.tech-support.recovery FAQ to get an explanation of what a Bob is.
    [2] You should know where to go by now...

  • Given that Febuary 15th is a US Federal Holiday (being President's Day), I wonder if there will be anyone *at* work to handle the refunds?
  • In the UK comsumer law is pretty much on the buyers' side. I doubt booting a pre-installed operating system would invalidate the EULA. I think you're probably entitled to a refund anyway, whatever the MS lawyers say.

    You might even be able to get a refund based on the 'not fit for the purpose for which it was designed' clause (A lot retailers are wary enough of the law to give refunds simply on the 'I couldn't get it to work' argument, because it's fairly easy in court to go from 'doesn't work' to 'not fit')
  • I believe that the intent of that phrase is that the copy of Windows you just received may only be used on the PC it came with, not on some other machine. If you bought one machine with NT and one with 98, it violates the EULA (isn't that a football player in Nashville?) to swap the two OS's.
  • I picked up a couple of AlphaStation 200 4/233s from webauction.com... $400.00 a piece. 32 megs ram, but no operating system, and no hard disk. One is running NT Server, and one RedHat 5.2.

    (anyone want to help me get X running on the 8 meg TGA cards that came with the systems?)
  • That would only work if those operating systems
    were licensed with the same condition in
    Microsofts EULA which allows refund of the
    operating system if you don't agree to the
    license. I'm fairly sure the others don't.
  • yeah right - that hardly seems worth it. A desktop, now those I build, but laptops are a whole different story.

  • Wouldn't it be beautiful if Bill Gates had to refund everyone who'd ever purchased a Windows OS, ran out of money, and had to crash on Linus' couch?
  • VA Research's VArBook [varesearch.com] comes with Win95, but not installed. When even a Linux specific dealer has to bundle an MS OS with their notebooks, that's a monopoly.
  • Interesting Point.

    I can't wait to see what happens when some high profile lawyers get their hands in this and start slugging. The two statements contradict eachother. Wonder what a judge would rule.

    Anyway, better get it quick if you're going to try. If it become epidemic, you can bet it'll be rewritten promptly.

    Also, I think a more interesting battle to watch would be the PC makers vs. MS. How are their agreements written? Will they be able to get MS to cough up the cash since it's their EULA.

    Just a thought


  • If possible go to local PC vendors who build
    their own equipment. Most of these people
    are not tied into any agreement with MS, and
    it also helps support local business as opposed
    to the other mega corps, i.e. dell, compaq.

  • it's a pity i used my M$ software, back when i purchased the computer i didn't even really know what linux was fully. oh well. i'll get to do this with my next upgrade :)
  • is how entertwined alot of these hardware vendors are and microsoft. did anybody else notice how deadly that liscense is? microsoft has a CONTRACT with toshiba that prohibits them from seperating their software from their hardware. later on it said they can't sell a system without a valid operating system...but i bet that implies MS operating systems because why would microsoft make them sign an agreement like that. it is little wonder that the hardware industries are anxious to get microsoft off of their backs if they are being forced to sign prohibitive liscense like this. i wonder how long they are effective? this is definatly one of the things "they" would rather not have known and i'm glad this story brought it up.
  • Between this, the vendor support, the publicity, and the frantic development efforts out there, I'm starting to believe that Linux really CAN overtake Microsoft.

    My new prediction is that by Jan 1st, 2000, Linux will be the operating system of choice for all new systems.

    Linux - Operating system for a new millennium.
  • I really don't see how that actually can be legal. To buy product A, you must also purchase product B. To me that's like saying to buy a 2 liter bottle of coca-cola you must also buy a glass. I dunno, I hate the way the legal system works in the US anyway. I wish all the lawyers / judges would go to hell, especially judge judy.
  • I really don't think of anyway that part of the EULA could be upheld in court by that interpretation of it. It implies that no computer can be sold without windoze. And by buying a computer pre-installed with windows you cannot remove it. I really hate software, no other industry has this kinda crap associated with it. When I buy a vcr there is no license agreement saying I can only use it w/ brand X tvs or that I can only buy tapes from Y company or that I can't open it up and play w/ it (well most of the time that kills the waranty, but have you ever actually tried to return a product that died while under waranty? See http://www.op.net/~mstocum/ [op.net] for my personal problems with JVC.)
  • Go to your local YYY store and buy all the copies of any microsoft product that you can afford. Go home, open the shrink wrap on the box, BUT NOT THE CD. Go back to the store and tell them that you don't agree to the EULA and that you want your money back. Since the EULA doesn't say anything about the condition of the product you might want to try damaging the software in such a way that it could not simply be re-shrink-wrapped and resold. I think this would certainly make a point. I'm also fairly certain that microsoft would not be able to change the EULA to indicate that you cannot get a refund because that would almost certainly invalidate it.
  • by mkoscica ( 13650 )
    Now that is a funky story...slightly dodgy that they took so long to agree though...*shrug*
  • And the moral of the story is this don't buy from Toshiba, if you want to run Linux they are obviously sleping with the beast. Buy Gateway, Dell, or Compaq....
  • There seems to be a problem.. the EULA does not say how much they have to refund you. It could be $0.50, or maybe nothing at all. They can argue that if you had made it clear that you did not want Windows, they would have sold you the system without Windows for the same price anyway. And furthermore, OEMs do not pay the full retail price for Windows.
  • It took a long time, but they finally gave the guy his refund. Give them credit for that. Especially since:

    1. They're a big corporation with many procedures, and this guy was asking for something unheard of (literally, they hadn't heard of it before).

    2. As another poster suggested, they may have not have understood until the end that he was using a different OS and not pulling a fast one.

    3. They DO have a contract (required by current market forces) with a certain OS vendor known for very, very hardball tactics, in and out of court.

    If enough slashdotters were to buy laptops from Toshiba, they might just start to openly market to us. (Assuming MS doesn't try to fix their wagon.)
  • The quote from the license speaks of the singular "SOFTWARE PRODUCT", so I take the phrase "contact Manufacturer for instructions on return of the product(s)" to mean that it's your choice; you can either return the MS SOFTWARE PRODUCT to the (computer) Manufacturer for a refund, or you can return all the products (plural) you bought from the Manufacturer, which means the computer and software. That, your honor, is why the "s" is in brackets; it's my option.
  • In my EULA, that section is titled [2](g) Single COMPUTER. That gives the context to interpret this as forbidding copies to other computers. The "single INTEGRATED product" reading is arguably meaningless or inaccurate. I can certainly put in a boot disk and use a different OS, so Windows is not integrated so tightly with the hardware as to make the hardware useless without Windows. Perhaps the emphasis should be "SINGLE integrated product", since this clause is talking about copying to other machines, not divorcing the software from the hardware.
  • Well, it seems enough people think this is a pretty cool idea, so I've whipped up a new site, the Windows Refund Center, as a place where we can organize and help each other on this. http://www.thenoodle.com/refund/ . Comments or acts of volunteering should go to admin@thenoodle.com. Let's do it.
  • This should be shouted from the highest mountaintop (newsgroup/listserv) on the planet!

    I bet this would make for some interesting rebuttal in the court hearings.

    This should also be public knowledge...if more people knew this was possible Bill might not have such an upper hand...
  • If vendors gets lots of returned software that
    they have to pay for anyway - guess what happens?

    They'll reject such deals with Microsoft.

    A single small vendor can probably not do it, but
    they'll cooperate on this if all of them get
  • Paying a refund to, say 1% of the users won't
    make the windows deal unprofitable because of
    refund cost alone, but the extra work may make
    them reconsider.

    And imagine a company with lots of machines doing this. I don't know of any large-scale linux
    installations, but there sure are banks with large
    os2 installations around.
    Then there are those who upgrade to newer machines, and install their old licenced windows
    onto the new machines. (Legal if you bought windows without machine once, and remove windows
    from the old machines before selling them used.)
  • You can specify DOS instead, but I wouldn't want to buy DOS either. Not that it matters to me,
    I don't buy whole machines anyway.

  • I know you can't order one without windows, but how about ordering one without a harddisk?
    If they wonder why, just say you have broken the screen or something, but you have everything you need on the existing hardisk.
    Then order an "extra" harddisk a little later. Some notebooks have room for an extra drive. Or say you want a spare one.
  • I have sold all of my win95 licenses on ebay. I don't use windows so there is no reason to keep a copy of the product or to own a license.

    Sometimes I think about the older licenses I have. I have two compaq aeros one still has a license for dos/win3.1, which I understand MS still sells. I don't have the disks because compaq didn't distribute the software on disk with the computer.

    However, is it possible for me donate the license to a school? Perhaps some one could create a website where people with old licenses to MS software could place ads with availability, no SS# on the website itself of course. And schools and other non-profits could have the licenses transfered to them.

    How many offices have machines that don't work but still have the licenses for the software. Most companies probably have a fortune in unused software. Donating it could be a tax write off.

    It is unlikely that MS would complain about charitable donations of this type. The PR would be terrible. And even if they did complain I doubt anything could be done about it.

  • As I understand only the conduct of hardware manufacturers can be questioned in the particular case, because MS provides a way not to use their software (according to their License agreement). It is the manufacturer who tried not to follow suit because they would see no money from MS, according to their agreement. So IMO MS can be condemned because of the agreements like that but even that would not mean that the end user could see money from it. :( I even can see MS using this story as sg supporting them: they give the opportunity for everyone to return the software, and how many of us did it???
  • I just purchased a notebook from Custom Computers (http://www.custom-computers.com) made by JETTA International (http://www.jetta.com).

    The notebook can be ordered without an Operating System so you can avoid the M$ TAX from the start.

    The laptop runs Linux without and problems!

  • Just spent 40 minutes on the phone with Gateway trying to convince them to give me a refund. They consistently refused, saying that their agreement with MS "does not allow them to sell a computer without an MS operating system," and that they attach no real dollar value to the OS, so there is no point in returning it.

    The generic customer service rep was rude, and at first refused to let me talk to her manager. The manager was quite nice, but just as useless.

    I guess that I'll now have to write a "I'm shocked and appalled" letter to the VP of Customer Care.
  • Direct [microsoft.com] from Microsoft themselves...
  • All this negative stuff about PC suppliers misses an important point: there are some responsible stores who actually provide what their customers want, and don't forcefeed them Windoze.

    I bought a PC just before Christmas and asked for no OS, and the salesman understood and accepted that I wanted to use Linux, to the extent that he recommended that I select a different video card since mmy first choice might give problems (PnP). I did as he suggested (the card was actually a few $ less that my first choice) and it works perfectly.

    In fact the machine was $80 cheaper than if I had bought it with Win installed, so he made his sale and I got what I wanted without paying the MS tax - isn't that what the salesperson/customer thing is all about?

    I suggest we support the stores that allow this choice - forget the big corporations who work hand-in-glove with MS.

    For the record I bought the machine at PC's For Everyone in Cambridge MA. I can't fault them for anything in this purchase, so I will use them agian. Their URL is http://www.pcsforeveryone.com

  • I want to let you know that I am going to try to get the windows refund for a notebook that I will buy next week.
    It will probably be an Acer Extensa 500T but I have not yet decided. Any comments about how this
    particular model runs under Linux are appreciated.

    I am currently living in Germany and my german is not very good, so some help by german-speaking people in translating e-mails/faxs/letters will be
    welcome. Also if you know some law in Germany that makes this easyer/harder please let me know.

    If I succeed the money will be donated to the Free Software Foundation.

  • As Toshiba is stating that the refund is to be set to $5 or less, well folks, call Toshiba for a special price Windows OS. The refund should be equal to what the consumer will have to pay for a new license. Meaning if you accept the refund of $5, you should also be able to buy the product back for the same price later.
  • I can't stress this enough. "What a load of bollocks!" Lets all get excited about nothing in particular.
    This is not the first time 'refund' has reared it's head on Slashdot. Is anyone expecting me to believe that you cannot buy a machine and specify at time of purchase that you don't want any MS product on it. Give me a break! What a shower of annoying whiners! Get over yourselves.
  • Sorry folks, that last post got mangled. This is my second ever post to /.!
    You guessed?
    The line:
    the sale. ). Si ou non?

    missed a chunk, which I now precis:
    -end of quote
    -MS would claim there is linkage between computer hardware and software (which there is) though proving that this means i86a computers *absolutely* require MS software is another question. The answer is not one MS would like to go to court to prove!
    -The original poster was from France?

    Does that make more sense?
  • I'm having fun talking to them about it though.

    They've tried to convince me it doesn't apply
    to "operating software". Heh.
  • I dont normally get involved in silly crap like this, but this time its irrisistable.

    *Why dont u buy computer systems that DONT come preloaded with Windows if you dont want it? there are plenty of resellers on the 'net happy to sell Window-less units.

    *Why dont u get over yer hatred of Windows simply because it's Microsoft. If u don't wanna use MS products well don't use em, n leave the rest of us who understand that the best product is the one that does the job the best, whether it be unix or windows or wotever.

    *Ever noticed how similar yer very public anti-windows whinging is to Microsoft's alleged bully-boy tactics?

    Makes me wonder jsut how many of u anti-windows dickheads actually successfully use a computer to make a living....

    ...can't wait for all the friendly replies im gonna get from this post *smooch* love u all :)
  • On Friday, I called Dell. I spoke to Sean in customer service.
    I asked if I could return Windows for a refund. He said YES!!.
    I asked how much the refund would be. He said $199!!
    Me thinks he's gonna lose his job. But it's been said!

    I've transcibed the conversation at http://ibis.home.texas.net/dell.html [texas.net].
  • Just saw this on Compaq/Digital's web site which is supporting Linux on AlphaServer.
    http://www.digital.com/alphaserver/linux/index.h tml

    The Compaq AlphaServer DS20 and 800 systems are available without a bundled software license, allowing you to use an open source operating system, such as Linux. This saves you the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use.

    Why is it that this is not the case on Intel products? It seems like even though Microsoft claims that they do not force vendors to ship Windows on a new system and that the vendors "choose" to do it because it is the only fesable option, that suddenly to the vendor "...the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use." doesn't matter anymore. It appears that this is only the case if the vendor controls BOTH the hardware and the software. Seems almost like Microsoft IS involved and that it isn't just a vendor "choice".
  • Just saw this on Compaq/Digital's web site which is supporting Linux on AlphaServer.
    http://www.digital.com/alphaserver/linux/index.h tml

    The Compaq AlphaServer DS20 and 800 systems are available without a bundled software license, allowing you to use an open source operating system, such as Linux. This saves you the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use.

    Why is it that this is not the case on Intel products? It seems like even though Microsoft claims that they do not force vendors to ship Windows on a new system and that the vendors "choose" to do it because it is the only fesable option, that suddenly to the vendor "...the cost of purchasing an operating system you don't plan to use." doesn't matter anymore. It appears that this is only the case if the vendor controls BOTH the hardware and the software. Seems almost like Microsoft IS involved and that it isn't just a vendor "choice".
  • The EULA has nothing to do with it. You have the right, under US law, anyway, to return all or any part of a product for a refund if it doesn't perform as specified.

    And of course, no MS product ever has.
  • I don't think they'd be able to get away with that. Selling you a product before you are allowed to read the license and then not letting you use or return the product if you disagree with the license? They can get away with a lot, but not that.
  • If we could only return MacOS to apple since we don`t use it anyway
  • by El ( 94934 )
    I wonder how many people would have to do this before Toshiba would get a clue and start offering a product WITHOUT Windoze preinstalled? (Granted, this would probably require setting up a separate company to distribute the same hardware under a different name to get around the fascist M$ contract. But still, it should be doable, and even profitable if there is enough demand...)
  • hheheheh
    i put toshiba logo on my page
    then i link it to that australian page

No extensible language will be universal. -- T. Cheatham