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Japan

Japan Seeks Power To Turn Down Private Home Air Conditioners Remotely, Report Says (japantoday.com) 146

Posted by BeauHD from the remote-control dept.
Japan Today reports: As reported by Japan's Nihon Keizai Shimbun, in a meeting on Nov 2, the Energy Conservation Subcommittee of the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry resolved to begin working group discussions with the aim of gaining the ability to remotely turn down privately owned air conditioner/heater units. The goal would be to decrease energy usage during expected power shortages, which the committee feels are a growing concern as Japan attempts to shift towards renewable energy sources such as solar power, where the amount generated can be affected by day-to-day climate, making it difficult to stabilize the amount of total power available. The ministry says that AC unit usage accounts for roughly 30 percent of household electricity consumption in Japan.

From a technical standpoint, the plan wouldn't be particularly difficult to implement. Japanese air conditioner units have long had remote controls, so external inputs aren't a problem, and many models now allow the owner to turn the system on and off or adjust temperature settings through the internet. By asking manufacturers to extend such access to government regulatory organizations, and granting those organizations override functions over other inputs, the plan could easily be put into practice for internet-connected AC units, and water heaters are another home appliance the committee is looking to gain the ability to throttle back. [...] According to Nihon Keizai Shimbun, the committee is currently working under the concept that the government would only be able to turn down AC units if their individual owners have agreed, in advance, to grant that authority.
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Japan Seeks Power To Turn Down Private Home Air Conditioners Remotely, Report Says More

Japan Seeks Power To Turn Down Private Home Air Conditioners Remotely, Report Says

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  • Or...build more power plants (Score:3, Insightful)

    by RightwingNutjob ( 1302813 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:19PM (#63034201)

    What kind of mentality has to be present between the ears for this sort of plan to make sense over building more generating capacity.

    This is the philosophical equivalent of legally defining some sound stage as being The Moon instead of doing the work to land on the actual thing in the sky.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by haruchai ( 17472 )

      you forgot the /sarc tag

    • Japan has lots of mountains and good sites for pumped storage systems.

    • What kind of mentality has to be present between the ears for this sort of plan to make sense over building more generating capacity.

      Uh...like, basic engineering and economical knowledge? If you can provide something for $1M in 95% of cases or for $2M in 100% of case, in real life people will often forego the second option because of the disproportionately low marginal utility. This goes for backup facilities (how many backup generators you need?), network capacities (how many lanes a highway should have?), facility capacities (how many beds a hospital should have?) etc. etc.

      • Uh...like, basic engineering and economical knowledge? If you can provide something for $1M in 95% of cases or for $2M in 100% of case, in real life people will often forego the second option because of the disproportionately low marginal utility.

        If the world is going to de-carbonize the investments will have to be made regardless.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by necro81 ( 917438 )
      The fundamental problem is caused by a mismatch between supply and demand. There are two elements to that balance - why must increasing supply be the only solution? And why do you assume that this proposal is the only thing that they are suggestion?

      Oftentimes these kinds of demand-side mitigations are in the name of peak-shaving, which by its very nature are short term phenomena (otherwise they'd call it plateau-shaving). Reducing demand for a short period of time tends to be a more economical approac
    • You still need a grid to distribute that electricity. That's the harder part of the whole problem.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kisai ( 213879 )

      Because people leave HVAC systems running when they don't need to.

      The ideal situation here is that HVAC systems would have a standard thermostat, which in Japan, many heating systems are not central unless they're large office buildings. They're usually a less efficient unit in a single room of the building, because many Japanese homes are uninsulated. The same reason the Kotatsu is a standard piece of furniture. They heat just the space under the living room table.

      Japanese homes are disposable. They aren't

      • If Japanese homes were insulated, they wouldn't need to run heating or cooling nearly as much, but then the buildings would rot because of the lack of air circulation.

        What? Why would they rot? Many homes & all new homes in northern EU countries are very well insulated, i.e. you can literally heat the highest-rated ones, which aren't uncommon, with a candle. In fact, the body heat of a couple of people is enough to warm the room in less than an hour when it's below zero outside. They don't rot.

    • This sort of plan is already in several countries. Mostly it's about putting hot water heaters or pool healters on separate circuit, and thoe can be flipped off during peak usage. It doesn't break them, they'll be back on at night. And all the cases I know of are voluntary - you get a cheaper rate by agreeing. The utilities need ways to save money and prevent extra generation. Very often there are redudant power plants used only a few times a year, peaker plants, and they're very expensive.

    • "B... b...but we built a nuclear power plant in a tsunami-prone seismic zone, operated it for decades longer than it was rated for, and installed the backup generators in the basement, and bad things happened. So fuck YOUR air conditioner in particular." - Japan

  • Why do they need access? (Score:3)

    by Xenx ( 2211586 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:19PM (#63034203)
    They're talking about internet enabled AC units. Just put up a small server reporting the approved temp range, and require the software to check-in periodically.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Xenx ( 2211586 )
        Because that isn't remote access. It might be what they were considering, but it isn't remote access.
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Xenx ( 2211586 )
            Except, they described it in a way that entails them actually having remote access to the AC units. It may not be the only method being discussed, but it was the method being described.

            The thing is, the idea isn't new. For example, this is already happening in Texas. They, similarly, describe the process as actually having remote access to control the units. The only reasoning where actual remote access is more beneficial is under emergency situations. A check-in system would have a slower response time. H

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by jbengt ( 874751 )
              Sending a signal that the AC unit can receive is not what most people consider access, especially since you can opt out of it (or have to opt in, I'm not sure which they're proposing)

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Xenx ( 2211586 )
                Opt-in/out is all well and good, but irrelevant to my point. Being able to send out a signal to the AC units is exactly remote access. It's irrelevant whether people think it is or not. There are risks involved, either way it's done, but allowing an external source access is generally less preferable.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      That's basically how it would work. The article isn't trying to describe the technical aspects, when it says "access" it just means in the sense that the government would have some control.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Xenx ( 2211586 )
        They did describe at least a method in how they would do it, and the method described would be actual remote access. It may not be the only method being considered, but it is the one described and thus would be fair to assume what they intend.

  • By Alan Dean Foster (of course).

    In it there was a small bit where one of the overworked space riggers was complaining how The Company were such penny pinchers that they regulated the temperature of the pressure suits to such a degree that they grew uncomfortably hot, and that was just to save on the battery discharging to power the climate control.

    The more experienced worker said to just spread a bit of gloop on the widget that monitored temperatures, and that would make it give a higher reading.

    Might take

  • Given japan (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Z80a ( 971949 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @10:46PM (#63034261)

    They can just offer a wall plug that turns off when the grid is loaded, and people will just install it themselves out of politeness.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It would be much better to be able to adjust the thermostat slightly. Turn it down a degree 30 minutes before the expected peak to pre-cool the room, then turn it back to the user's set point and coast through that high demand period.

    • Common electric meters exist already with multiple outputs that can be controlled independently. This is what many utilities use for load balancing, and you can put the pool heater on one of the controlled circuits. Generally that's done with new houses naturally. These programs all currently are voluntary already. Usually people don't opt-in out of politeness, but because they get a lower electricity rate.

      A more common practice in the US, where people often can't distinguish between a government and a

  • Probably a better solution than roaming blackouts.
    • It is pitch black. You are in danger of being eaten by a grue.

    • One reason [nahb.org] homes in CA cost so much is the enormous number of regulations applied to newly-constructed homes - and one of the newest regulations is this one requiring "smart thermostats" [greentechmedia.com]. So-called "smart thermostats" are a scam to enable remote control of the temperature within YOUR HOME by big, over-reaching, utterly incompetent government. Governor Newsom wants to control the temp in YOUR HOME to hide his incompetent energy management, but you may not have noticed that YOU do not gain control over the t

  • Germany has already allowed its largest residential landlord to cut temp to 17C I think it is at night. https://www.reuters.com/busine... [reuters.com]

  • If they have agreed (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Iamthecheese ( 1264298 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:13PM (#63034315)
    This is one of the slippery slopes of government control. First they only have power over those who agree. Then the corporations owned by the same people also who control the politicians coerce compliance among some. Then the media steps in and pushes it hard. Then a judge gets to say that it's obviously in the interest of the public for it to be enforced in some edge cases. And on it progresses. When a certain percentage of people are compliant it changes from those who freely agree to those who were agreed to everyone. And make no mistake, this is not "the government" who has the power. It's the people who own the government.

  • Insulation is key (Score:5, Informative)

    by kalieaire ( 586092 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:13PM (#63034317)
    The biggest problem is that many homes in Japan are still uninsulated due to the sweltering heat that the region experiences during the spring and summer. Ventilation is prioritized over insulation. But now with so many homes utilizing mini split systems to offer both heating and cooling, insulating homes would help a lot to reduce power usage as well as investments into other technologies like cooking with induction cooktops.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by trenien ( 974611 )
      Not quite true.

      Japan is indeed quite late to the show, but they insulate new buildings now, and have been doing so for the last 20 to 30 years (though as far as I'm aware, there is no obligation to do so).

      • What they do now is irrelevant. It's still very much true that the majority of Japanese homes are designed for ventilation not insulation. This is true of any warm climate where civilisation formed prior to the invention of the AC. What you do "new" is irrelevant. The worst offenders are those who don't offer retrospective solutions.

        Sidenote: Insulation went in our roof this week, because someone else building a new house down the street doesn't help me.

    • It's a big problem in the US. A lot of leaky houses where you can go from being cool to sweltering in an hour.

  • No Insulation (Score:5, Informative)

    by sonicmerlin ( 1505111 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:41PM (#63034375)

    If you've ever been to Japan you'd be keenly aware of how terribly insulated their homes are. As in, no insulation whatsoever. You can't even choose insulation as an option if you're building a home there. They just "don't do it". They could easily save massive amounts of energy by retrofitting their houses and apartments.

  • Use an auction (Score:3)

    by quantaman ( 517394 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:44PM (#63034387)

    The big problem with this remote override is people make the decision months before, so when it actually happens the decision no longer feels like their own so people get predictably pissed off.

    So the solution is to make sure the people still feel like they have control by moving the decision point to the time when you need the power.

    So instead of just making it a remote override you make it an auction. The thermostat starts dinging and people get a prompt "power usage is too high, so for X yen / hour can we set your thermostat to Y degrees?"

    Now people are happy to change the temperature because the decision, discomfort, and reward are all happening at the same time.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by lpq ( 583377 )

      So the poor, disabled, and elderly will be endangered, while the rich & wealthy get comfort at a tiny cost.

      Only if the auction system uses 'wealth-proportional tokens', so to boost HVAC costs a increasingly high percentage of the user's wealth (not just income).

      In most places in the US, many fines for misdemeanors are fixed-cost, meaning the wealthy can ignore the laws, because the fines are a pittance measured against their wealth.

      Even for crimes that can include incarceration, the impact on the poor o

      • So the poor, disabled, and elderly will be endangered, while the rich & wealthy get comfort at a tiny cost.

        This already happens through ordinary power bills, and one assumes this "advance authority" may be granted in return for some kind of benefit like cost.

        There's also a huge protection built in where if someone's health is being endangered by the higher temp they can simply walk up to the thermostat and cancel the override.

  • No. (Score:3)

    by devslash0 ( 4203435 ) on Monday November 07, 2022 @11:47PM (#63034393)

    Only I know my individual temperature requirements to feel comfortable. I may have special needs. I may be ill. Or I may simply feel like walking around naked one particular evening. No one but me should have the right to regulate temperature in my own home.

  • To reduce power consumption, you turn the A/C thermostat UP

    Say in Japan do they use Kelvins or Fahrenheit degrees?

  • The solution is nuclear, the solution has always been nuclear, and the future solution is also nuclear (plus rooftop solar, but again that is not as reliable).

    As Germany is experiencing this winter, "clean" energy is not as reliable. In fact they are bringing up coal plants while shutting down nuclear, which clearly does not make sense (not only coal is dirtier, and more dangerous, it actually releases toxic radioactive elements in the form of ash, whereas nuclear reactor "exhaust" is water vapor).

    Anyway, g

  • They tried to do that to me in Florida (Score:3)

    by maybe111 ( 4811467 ) on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @12:31AM (#63034455)

    and offered a discount if I agreed....

  • if they think what they are doing is worthwhile to the society then they will do it. It is the same with the sacrifice of the many in keeping sanitary and isolation during COVID that has kept Japanese death to only 47,000 out of an older vulnerable population that is 40% that of the US while the US already has had 1.05 million deaths. Japanese almost never fight among themselves about anti-vaccinations or wearing masks because they trust in the most part what their government is doing to protect them and

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kackle ( 910159 )
      I'd guess they mostly have a similar mindset. Though an unpopular notion, this is probably one shortcoming of a diverse populous.
  • Can make it in to a social thing for sure. "Be patriotic and give the gov the power to turn off your ac"

  • Because what will happen? People will install a heater element under the temperature sensor to make it artificially warmer where the temperature is measured. And now take a wild guess what will power this heater.

  • The link in the /. article to the JapanToday post has a forum thread attached. I looked through many of the posts and thought I was reading /.

    As for remote control of the thermostat...no way.

    As for those people that need their homes warmed to 78F in the winter and cooled to 72F in the summer (roughly 25C and 22C, respectively)...I gotta wonder.

    I know a few folks with body temperature regulation issues (myself included), but adjusting your clothing accordingly can really, not to mention using ceiling fans pr

    • As for those people that need their homes warmed to 78F in the winter and cooled to 72F in the summer (roughly 25C and 22C, respectively)...I gotta wonder.

      I personally keep my room at 16-17C in the summer (hotter outside, colder inside, so I can cool down fast after getting in from outside) and 14-20C in winter (colder outside means I can tolerate higher inside temperature).

      I have a bunch of servers in that room, so I never need to separately heat it. My AC works really hard in the summer, but it barely works in the winter (and sometimes not at all), because I get free cooling just by opening the windows.

  • I think it's easier/faster (and maybe even cheaper) to 'just' add extra powerstations to fulfil the demand then to have all AC's being replaced with the control unit.

  • If you have a system allowing the collective control of all thermostats by someone, it will inevitably be compromised and used to crash the grid by turning the set temp to 60 all at once.

  • Power companies already have a discounted service that they can shut off 15 minutes per hour and people will hook their air conditioners to it and pay a lower rate.

  • Oops! (Score:2)

    by PPH ( 736903 )

    I got the plugs for the HVAC and grandma's ventilator swapped.

  • Not far away: silencing opponents and ruling with impunity :|

  • You do not need to be the Bard [wikipedia.org] to get the concept that changing the name of a thing does not alter the actual substance and character of the thing. Remotely-controlled "smart meters" are just rationing in disguise. Rather than providing the energy the citizens want (sometimes NEED, depending on the health of the particular citizen), government wants the power to cut-off the heating or cooling in individual homes - an action that will be sort of subtle and spread across a population making it hard for jour

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