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TSMC To Begin 3nm Chip Production Next Month (tomshardware.com) 57

Posted by msmash from the shape-of-things-to-come dept.
TSMC will begin mass producing chips using its leading-edge N3 (3nm-class) manufacturing process this September, according to a Commercial Times report that cites equipment manufacturers. From a report: The contract chipmaker will deliver the first products made using its N3 node to its customers early next year. Traditionally, TSMC begins its high-volume manufacturing (HVM) of a new node sometime in the March to May timeframe to produce enough chips for Apple's latest iPhones, which typically launch in September. But the development of TSMC's N3 node took longer than usual, which is why Apple's upcoming smartphone chips will use a different node. In contrast, the first 3nm chips from TSMC will reach the HVM milestone only in September, which is a bit later than what TSMC originally promised (a couple of months delay versus typical schedules). Still, the company will meet its goal of starting N3 production in the second half of the year. When compared to the original N5 manufacturing technology, the initial N3 fabrication process is projected to offer a 10% to 15% performance improvement (at the same power and complexity), reduce power consumption by 25%-30% (at the same speed and transistor count), and increase logic density by around 1.6 times.
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TSMC To Begin 3nm Chip Production Next Month More

TSMC To Begin 3nm Chip Production Next Month

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  • What is the density, per mm^2, of transistors? In other words, how many transistors can they pack in a 1 mm^2 square? It's a hell of a lot less than 111 billion, I'll tell you that.

    • I am not sure the nanometer process size directly corresponds to much of anything any more, but if you can get the same performance for 25% less power, that is a real improvement.

      Interesting that going for additional performance instead of reduced power only gives you 10%-15% performance boost.

      • Ok, why not advertise on that (efficiency improvements) .. if the contacted gate pitch (distance between the gates of each transistor) is around 50 nanometers, calling it 3nm is totally marketing BS. Back when we measured device size in microns, there was some truth in advertising. I believe it really started getting wonky over the last decade.

        • It used to correspond to feature size (gate length) and nothing to do with the distance between them - though this hasn't been true since 1994. 3nm is also not the feature size - it's a mostly made up number. The smaller size does means less heat so it's still important to how fast you can clock it and how much performance you can get out of it. The distance between transistors only tells you how big the die has to be, not how fast it will go.

          • Fine. They should market it based on gate delay, density, and power requirements then.

            • Marketing is not going to be a technically complex endeavor. It's going to be distilled down into the simplest point of comparison that they can find.

              • Because at the end of the day, marketing is aimed at people who (more often than not) know nothing about what gate delay or density means or how any of that matters.

    • What is the density, per mm^2, of transistors? In other words, how many transistors can they pack in a 1 mm^2 square? It's a hell of a lot less than 111 billion, I'll tell you that.

      TSMC FinFET N3 has a transistor density of 314.73 MT/mm^2. Misses the mark by a few orders of magnitude!

      Process nodes are pure marketing bullshit. They have been for a few generations now. We're realistically still at 40-45 nm transistor gate pitch. Going back over a decade to Intel's "45 nm" process, their gate pitch was 160 nm. Still bullshit, but less egregious. New 3nm is approximately equivalent to 13nm if you were to scale it according to Intel's old "45 nm" process.

      It's going to be fun when we talk a

      • > We're realistically still at 40-45 nm transistor gate pitch. Going back over a decade to Intel's "45 nm" process, their gate pitch was 160 nm. Still bullshit, but less egregious.

        Less egregious you say.

        But 160-45=115, and 45-3=42. A delta of 42 is a lot less egregious than a delta of 115.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        Good then that the deciding factor is the interconnect. Has been for a while. Like 20 years or so...

        • Interconnect is even less useful for lay people to turn transistor density into process node. TSMC's N3 has an interconnect pitch of 22nm. Versus my arbitrary example of old Intel 45 nm process. Note that gate pitch and interconnect pitch for the first layer is the same 45 nm and most other process (and that example is much less than 20 years old). Anyways, if you've been following we'll be compared 160 nm to 22 nm interconnect pitch. And of course interconnect pitch increases in additional layers, the smal

      • "nm" stands for "nonsense metric" doncha know.

  • We recently banned exports of 3nm chips to countries like China. If TSMC makes them for our companies like Intel, AMD... how does the restriction work. Does anybody know? My question is genuinely for education purpose because I'm clueless. I'm not looking for a political response.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by DarkRookie2 ( 5551422 )
      TSMC is in Taiwan, which the US has said is not a part of China. Which is why we do business with them.
      The long story of it has something to do with when China went commie. The gov we setup after WW2 was forced out to Taiwan and declare Taiwan to be the true China. And we supported those people because they weren't commies and a source of cheap labor.
      Somebody will hopefully explain it better.

      • The official policy of the US government is that Taiwan is part of China and that the US does not support their independence.

        https://www.state.gov/u-s-rela... [state.gov]

        • Yes, but we are fully supporting the weirdness that has Taiwan as some weird quasi-country. Reading more of what you sent read like the US think Taiwan is country in all but name so it doesn't piss of China too much.

          • The way you framed it kinda sums it up, we essentially by policy support the current status-quo. Taiwan Relations Act [wikipedia.org]

            So while we do not in a total official capacity recognize Taiwan as a full independant nation we also do not support the PRC's claim to the island either, nor do we support the Taiwan governments claim to the mainland. In all but official policy though we treat Taiwan as it's own nation, everything saying otherwise seems to be a matter of diplomacy.

          • The US should formally adopt an official policy for discussing Taiwan. I propose that any reference to Taiwan state that it is our favorite part of China. It's a true statement, complies with insane vagueness that makes up Mainland-Taiwan relations, and would have Beijing ranting in the media for weeks. win, win, win

            Probably should stop sending people in line for the Presidency to meet with island leadership. Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi has all the geopolitical acumen of a turnip.

        • The official policy of the US is that the PRC is the sole government of China and "acknowledges" that the PRC claims Taiwan is part of China. However, they do not officially recognize Taiwan as part of China. And the US intends to maintain the status quo rather than support invasion of Taiwan or a further declaration of Independence by Taiwan. The "one China" policy is essentially the only peaceful option that currently works for everyone, even when everyone has a different idea of what that really means

          • Six very important words in that link: "WE DO NOT SUPPORT TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE"

            Independence from whom? Who would Taiwan be seeking independence from?

            Stop the bullshit. If US policy is now the exact opposite of what we put in writing for the rest of the world then maybe change the web site?

            • They don't support Taiwan independence. That's not the same as officially recognizing it as part of China. That was my point. For a counterexample, is Crimea independent? Is it part of Russia? I would answer no to both.

              • Not counterexample. I can't use words at the moment.

              • The people of Crimea voted on an independence referendum in 2014 and it passed so yeah that makes it independent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]

                When the US says "we do not support Taiwan independence" who do they think Taiwan might declare independence from? It's a simple question.

                • Re:How does this work with US? (Score:5, Informative)

                  by jacks smirking reven ( 909048 ) on Thursday August 18, 2022 @02:32PM (#62801025)

                  Not exactly the best case to hold a referendum after you've invaded a piece of land by force and then kindly (and assuredly not under implicit gunpoint right?) ask them if they'd like to stay, especially when your two options are "Join with Russia officially" and "join with Russia not in official capacity but in every other sense" especially with no choice to maintain the status quo. There's a good reason almost no other nations recognize that referendum as legitimate in any sense.

                  What the US means my Taiwan Independance is they need to keep the appearances of the "One China" policy officially but they also do not recognize the idea that the Taiwan Nationalist party will go back and take back the mainland.

                  • The people who live in Crimea and voted for independence are the ones who "invaded" their own country? Sorry, I no longer believe a single word I've been told about that region after all the obvious lies we've been told about Ukraine have been exposed.

                    So, back to Taiwan. When the US says "we do not support Taiwan independence" who do you think they mean? Independence from whom? Nobody can answer that very basic question?

                    • But you just asserted, with some authority and did it again just now, that the referendum is fully legitimate even though it was held after the Russians invaded the territory by force. If you believe your own assertion here you should have very strong doubts just the same about that referendum.

                      They mean they do not officially support Taiwan as a fully independent nation separate from the PRC mainland. Let's look at the official statement:

                      "We oppose any unilateral changes to the status quo from either side

                • You would be in the minority by recognizing a "vote" held during a military occupation. An "emergency session" of parliament while the building is surrounded by Russian military is not an independence referendum. There are reports that some of these votes were at gunpoint. All because Russia's plant of a president Yanukovych was removed from office and Ukraine showed signs of breaking away from Russia's influence.

                  But back to the original point, Taiwan does not have to be recognized by the US government a

                  • The contortions necessary to explain how six very simple words do not mean exactly what they very clearly mean never ceases to amaze.

                    "We do not support Taiwan independence."

                    • Because they're intended to be slightly vague to appease China. Supporting Taiwan independence is a separate thing altogether from whether it is part of China. Also, a key word is "support," which does have a meaning to it. And there are plenty in the Taiwan government that don't support Taiwan independence because it would mean not being in charge of all of China, including mainland China as they believe they rightly should be.

                    • Thank you for making my point. We're just lying (again). That is perfectly OK with you because Chinamen are dumb and bad or some shit. All that matters is that you're a much better person so lying to them is OK!

                      P.S. the Chinese know we're lying and the US knows China knows that. So really the only ones they're lying to is us. It's time for that to stop.

                    • They don't care what we mean as much as they care about what we say in writing. Nothing that's being said is a lie, it's just offering as much support as possible without being explicit on the things that are controversial.

            • Welcome to politics, where people say one thing while doing a completely different one.

            • Why? because you demand it?

              Did you not understand the message when Pelosi visited Taiwan? -It was that you do not dictate US actions.

        • An official US site claiming "we have a robust unofficial relationship"? Does not compute.

    • I think most of it centers around the fact that ASML is restricted from selling them the EUV lithography machines necessary to produce the stuff

    • It seems surprising that the US would be able to prevent 'exports' from Taiwan to China, but apparently that is the case:

      "China does not have access to leading edge equipment," he said. "It would take a long time to have the engineering knowhow."

      Under the Trump administration, the U.S. essentially banned Chinese tech giants Huawei and SMIC from using American technology, including its chipmaking equipment.

      That meant that since late 2020, TSMC could no longer manufacture semiconductors for Huawei.

      From

      • From the above you might infer the 3nm fab is outside Taiwan, like in Arizona where TSMC is building a new cutting-edge fab. But no, this current 3nm capability is in Taiwan

        TSMC has always been notorious for keeping their leading edge processes exclusively on Taiwan. Changing that seems to have started. I suspect because: (a) some of their big customers are saying they want chips for sophisticated weapons systems made in the customers' countries and (b) the world is looking more insane and a crazy PRC
    • Wow!! OMFG!!! When I said "I'm not looking for a political response"... I sure as hell did NOT.

  • So, global chip shortage solved, then?

    And with bitcoin crashing, will I finally be able to buy a graphics card at an affordable price?

  • Breaking news - Intel to hit back with 3cm chips (Score:3)

    by ac22 ( 7754550 ) on Thursday August 18, 2022 @01:03PM (#62800699)

    Take that, TSMC!

  • At last Taiwan produced appropriate yardstick for comrade Xi's weenie!

  • This is what a rigged economy looks like. On the same day a bill was signed into law to give a $76 billion blank check to micro-chip companies, Intel announced it will be cutting back on plans to increase jobs by $4 billion while increasing dividends for its wealthy shareholders.

    The Inflation Recession Act will do the same thing. It encourages Americans to put solar panels on their roofs and buy electric cars. It is a bill for climate lobbyists, not the American people.

    • Re:Good ol' Intel (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Klaxton ( 609696 ) on Thursday August 18, 2022 @02:00PM (#62800915)

      The CHIPS Act is not a blank check, there are many strings.

      "The bill requires recipients to demonstrate significant worker and community investments, including opportunities for small businesses and disadvantaged communities, ensuring semiconductor incentives support equitable economic growth and development.

      These funds also come with strong guardrails, ensuring that recipients do not build certain facilities in China and other countries of concern, and preventing companies from using taxpayer funds for stock buybacks and shareholder dividends."

      And we definitely should be putting solar panels on our roofs and buying electric cars, global warming is trashing the environment.

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday August 18, 2022 @03:22PM (#62801241)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

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