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Microsoft Windows Operating Systems IT

Microsoft Suggests Those Divisive Windows 11 System Specs Deliver a 99.8% Crash-free Experience (pcgamer.com) 187

Posted by msmash from the closer-look dept.
PCGamer reports: Microsoft continues to double down on its assertion that the Windows 11 system requirements are absolutely necessary, and this whole TPM 2.0 schtick is vital for the safety of you, your PC, and maybe even the world. Okay, I made that last bit up, but the big M is sticking to its guns and has released another video backing its decision on excluding a whole lot of hardware that was fine with Windows 10. The latest claim is that you're going to see fewer blue screens of death -- or maybe black screens of death -- because of the new system requirements, citing a "99.8% crash-free experience in the [Windows 11] preview." Look, there's still a part of us that feels at some point in the future, maybe the distant future, Microsoft will turn around and say 'You know, what? We don't mind what processor you use with Windows 11,' but for right now this is where we're at. You need a modern CPU for Windows 11 for security and reliability.

And maybe a little performance. "So the requirement for Intel 8th Gen and AMD Ryzen 2000-series, and newer, chipsets does definitely contribute to performance," states Microsoft VP Steve Dispensa in the recent video. "But the main rationale here is actually the balanced security with performance. Security is at the core of these requirements." He does point to differences in how Windows 11 prioritises apps running in the foreground window. With the system running at 90% CPU load, it's still possible to get a responsive experience opening and using foreground apps thanks to these prioritisations.
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Microsoft Suggests Those Divisive Windows 11 System Specs Deliver a 99.8% Crash-free Experience More

Microsoft Suggests Those Divisive Windows 11 System Specs Deliver a 99.8% Crash-free Experience

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  • Safety in numbers. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ostracus ( 1354233 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:29PM (#61782991) Journal

    Crash free? Make ECC memory [slashdot.org] mandatory.

    • Crash free? Make ECC memory [slashdot.org] mandatory.

      Perhaps (hopefully) for Windows 12 they will

      • They could mandate ECC today for new PCs. Just like Windows 10 did for TPM 2.0. No reason to volunteer other people's existing hardware to the junkyard.
        • However, they won't because ECC support is the main feature Intel uses to differentiate their Xeon "professional" CPUs. Microsoft is unlikely to disturb Intel on that front.

      • Kinda, sorta it comes with DDR5.
        The gist is that individual memory cells are becoming too small to be reasonably resistant to things that could flip the stored bits. Such as radiation. So DDR5 is supposed to have on-chip ECC. That will of course not cover the transmission of data over the main board and to the CPU. But even so, I hope it will improve things.

      • Nah.. Probably not until Windows 15..

    • Re:Safety in numbers. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by LVSlushdat ( 854194 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @05:58PM (#61783671)

      You want to see less BSOD's? Switch to Linux.. I can't remember the last time I got a "kernel panic", the Linux-equivalent of a "BlueScreenOfDeath" and I use Linux for daily use for the last 11 years... I suspect MS is gonna get a NICE kickback from the hardware vendors for making users run out and buy new hardware to run MS's latest abortion..

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by jwhyche ( 6192 )

        On that note, I can't remember the last time I saw a blue screen of death. This isn't the 19xx's any more. Windows doesn't just all over every time you sneeze. No modern mature operating system does that.

        • Unless you have hardware connected that comes with crappy drivers. I had sporadic BSODs on my home Windows 10 PC for about two years. Infuriating, but not frequent enough to make me replace the whole machine with something new (about once a month or so).

          Turns out it was the Logitech webcam drivers. Removed that piece of junk and I haven't seen an issue since.

  • 99.8% (Score:5, Insightful)

    by backslashdot ( 95548 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:30PM (#61782995)

    How stupid is it to throw out a number with no context or meaning? What the hell does 99.8% even mean? 99.8% of user interaction instances? 99.8% of clicking the start button? 99.8% of API calls? Is it random? Is it certain calls? Does it crash every 500 seconds? What the fuck? Fuck off your 99.8%.

    • Re:99.8% (Score:4, Funny)

      by dargaud ( 518470 ) <slashdot2@@@gdargaud...net> on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:22PM (#61783199) Homepage
      It means it crashes only 2 minutes and 52 seconds every day. If it's only once, you're lucky; if it's 10 brief times...

    • How many technical white papers with all the raw details and scientific tests and raw explanations do you read? Probably not many, unless you need to do so for work.
      The rest of the stuff you ask for the information to be summarized. If it is message for the general population is will be the summary of a summary. In which people then go back to it and say HOW MUCH THIS SUCKS, didn't they look at X, and Y. and Consider Z and Z' The story/summary of a 40 page technical spec in a 1 page story didn't cover all

      • This is an important detail.

        The other ones might have only a 99.4% uptime, and that's a BIG difference!

        After all, AMD and Intel stockholders are waiting with baited breath for their stocks to SOAR AGAIN!!!

        Microsoft bought its own misery by not enforcing its own standards. The results are monthly patch/fix/update/bluescreen miseries that they just don't want to support on older hardware.

    • Maybe they mean there is 17 hours of downtime per year due to crashing.

    • I think this [windows.com] is the source document. It says:

      Since the introduction of Windows 11, we have received valuable feedback from the Windows Insider community, our fans, customers and partners....

      Reliability: Devices that do not meet the minimum system requirements had 52% more kernel mode crashes. Devices that do meet the minimum system requirements had a 99.8% crash free experience.

      So, 99.8% of the beta testers on systems meeting their current choice of system requirements have not experienced a BSOD since

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jon3k ( 691256 )
      Even better, what was the rate without these draconian requirements? 99.7%? Great, I don't want them.

    • How stupid is it to throw out a number with no context or meaning? What the hell does 99.8% even mean? 99.8% of user interaction instances? 99.8% of clicking the start button? 99.8% of API calls? Is it random? Is it certain calls? Does it crash every 500 seconds? What the fuck? Fuck off your 99.8%.

      I read somewhere that this was compared to the group that installed Windows 11 preview on unsupported-hardware. I can't find the reference thou, sorry.

    • It’s on a per minute basis. Going forward, you can expect just three BSODs per day. Such improvement!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by suss ( 158993 )

      It's a meaningless number the marketing droids came up with. It's most likely much, much lower, but microsoft won't show the real statistics...

    • The 99.8% comes from the fact that Windows 11 will throw a BSOD every 100th character typed on a ke
    • maybe its 99.8% per clock cycle. That could several crashes per microsecond...

  • So stuff crashes once every 500 runs?

  • Windows 10 for me has always been incredibly stable. The only BSOD's I've seen have been because of a faulty hardware driver.
    I don't believe newer processors with TPM is about "system stability".

    It seems more like a gift being thrown out to AMD and Intel.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Alworx ( 885008 )

      Ditto, and I manage a company with about 50 Windows PCs and a BSOD is a very rare sight!

    • I have a bunch of VMs that run regression jobs. Tens of thousands of small jobs per day.

      The Windows 10 VMs run fewer jobs than the Windows 7 VMs with the same resources. If I try to run the same number of parallel jobs on the Windows 10 VMs as Windows 7, the Windows 10 VMs crash quickly.

    • Yep, I have scores of 5-10 year-old Dells running Win10, as long as they have an SSD they're fine.

  • 99.8% crash free? (Score:5, Informative)

    by bb_matt ( 5705262 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:33PM (#61783013)

    That all depends whether the 0.2% is an entire system crash - a BSOD - or just a crashed application.

    I can't recall ever having had a complete system lockup on Linux, through no fault of my own.
    Sure, it's easily possible to grind Linux to a halt, but you really have to create that situation.

    I recently had to re-install my windows 10 gaming rig and I've never been able to figure out why - it just became unstable, frequent BSOD.
    It was at that point, I switched to Linux for gaming, which is now able to launch about 85% of my games, all of which play reliably and in some cases, actually better.

    I use macOS at work and pretty much my primary OS - I've had 2 crashes in a year that required a reboot - not sure how much that works out in percentage terms, but given my 2012 macBook has now had an uptime of 152 days, we're probably looking at 99.99% crash free.

    Besides, I just don't buy the fact that windows 11 will be 99.8% crash free - the metrics are impossible to work out, due to the nature of windows itself.
    A rogue app has a far greater chance of bringing down the entire OS with windows, than a *nix based system - but, that's anecdotal based on 20 years of experience.

    The way I see it, this is Microsoft trying to boost sales of PC's, due to their OEM contracts - whipping up the FUD that to enjoy this new version of windows, you have to upgrade.

    Screw that.

    It's now been about 3 months since I booted up windows 10 - and for the last 5 years, I've only done that to play games.

    Windows 11 will never feature in my future, except as part of my dev job of testing websites and webapps - and I'll rely on a third party service to provide that.

    • Re:99.8% crash free? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:08PM (#61783151) Journal

      That all depends whether the 0.2% is an entire system crash - a BSOD - or just a crashed application.

      The OS can't prevent crashed applications.

      But if the OS crashes without a high CPU speed, that is on Microsoft. You can run a responsive OS without crashing on a 1Mhz CPU.

    • I can't recall ever having had a complete system lockup on Linux, through no fault of my own.

      I have, but not due to software since... maybe 2003.

      Ignoring wine apps that crash, I have about 1 web browser crash every 2 years. And shotwell, which I use almost daily, crashes about once every 3 months. Probably because I leave it running that long. But it saves changes immediately, and recovers from crashes well.

      I do think it is application crashes that they're measuring, using some basket of approved software that is intended to be representative. But still, 99.8% sucks.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Guspaz ( 556486 )

      I've had Linux do complete lockups many times. Usually due to buggy drivers. Software is software, and software crashes.

      • I've had Linux do complete lockups many times. Usually due to buggy drivers. Software is software, and software crashes.

        The 2000s called and they want their FUD back.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Guspaz ( 556486 )

          Tell that to Realtek and LSI, then? It does seem like most of the bugs have been worked out at this point, as I no longer get kernel panics or failures that are just as bad from those drivers, but it was painful for years, and since the hardware is quite old at this point, I'm sure if I upgraded the hardware, I'd be faced with a whole host of new bugs.

  • Just remembered when Bill Gates was unveiling Windows 98. And the demo involved a gorgeous BSOD. Those seem to be making a comeback through my experiences with Windows 10 the past year or so. Trending?

    • I thought the Win 10 trend was all manner of OS notifications (Could not reconnect all network drives), profanity-laden Teams message pop ups, along with 1,000 upgrade notifications from software and corporate spyware interruptions all during screen shares and presentations...

  • Annecdotally (Score:3)

    by Papaspud ( 2562773 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:38PM (#61783037)
    I have been running W11 for over a month- no crashes or blue screens, seems very solid.

    • Re:Annecdotally (Score:5, Funny)

      by iggymanz ( 596061 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:48PM (#61783095)

      Me, too, been running Win 11 for almost 4 wx!"xx NO CARRIER

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Same here. I installed Win11 and it hasn't crashed yet! I'll let you know more once its finished booting.

      • Me, too, been running Win 11 for almost 4 wx!"xx NO CARRIER

        Won't be much longer now before that 'no carrier' joke is lost forever. We're getting older, folks.

        +++
        OK
        ATH
        OK

    • Sounds like fun!

      I've been running Windows 10 for 6 years... on my systems no bluescreens... some app crashes but that is to be expected playing games and running on older video cards and such. Seems very solid.
      Prior to that: I ran Windows 7 for about 6 years... no bluescreens except F4 and ED when a HDD crashed... some app crashes but that is to be expected playing games and running on older video cards and an apparently failing hard drive. Seems very solid.
      Prior to that I ran Windows 8 and Vista combined a

  • But of course (Score:3)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:38PM (#61783039)

    Vendor lock-in and losing control of your machine is essential to your safety. Look how well it's working with Android and iOS for years: people are so happy with that they never once tried to jailbreak any cellphone!

  • Microsoft stopped doing win10 upgrades, and I wanted the new kernel that had AMD nested cpu virtualizations instructions, you can run a VM in a VM.

    So I see win11 has the latest kernel 19200+ versions, so I upgrade and nope, amd nested wasn't included.

    Figured most things work (except vr), might as well keep using win11. But the way they crippled the taskbar was a nightmare, and open-shell won't work on win11.

    They also took 2 step tasks and made them 3 steps tasks to make it look pretty, cut paste drop downs

  • Windows will just have the same problems as always.

  • Missing context (Score:3)

    by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:42PM (#61783057)

    This isn't about TPM. This is about MS forcing a stringent new driver model DHC. It stands to reason. There was a boost in stability when driver signing was enforced and a lot of old shit code stored working too.

  • The real issue here is that millions of users of P/Cs with adequate if not recent hardware are being coerced into buying new P/Cs, and with them new licenses for windows and replacing other software which they already have with subscriptions. New image, same old Micro$oft.
    • Actually most people will just continue on with Win10 until it nags them in 2025.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by t0qer ( 230538 )

      I don't see the issue here.

      I'm on an I7 3770k I bought around 2013 or so. It's OLD. It plays most of the games, does all the things but it's OLD. It's about time I drop another $2k on a new PC.

  • May I suggest... (Score:3)

    by Major_Disorder ( 5019363 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @02:44PM (#61783071)
    Microsofts statement is probably 99.8% pure bullshit.
  • since WinXP. And I run an AMD RX 580 with the latest drivers. The problem isn't Windows crashing, it's application crashes. And I can't see Win 11 doing anything for that.

    Also Valorant is already using the Win 11 TPM to tie users to their hardware for banning cheaters. I'm surprised that didn't make /..

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jbengt ( 874751 )
      Good for you.
      I haven't had bluescreens, but I have had application crashes lock up Windows 10, as in, crtl-alt-del no longer works and a hard reboot is req'd, losing work in the process. That's on the OS.
      I also had a Windows 10 update freeze at a certain point so I had to go into safe mode and go back to a restore point. This was consistent for a certain upgrade, so I disabled updates for a year. Nonetheless, several weeks later, it tried to upgrade again and froze again. This was a 5-year old work la
  • Come one the truth is for basic use the computing world has plateaued and you can still get by with a dual core for basic web use. They want that new license sale and they want it bad.

  • Improving responsiveness under load is severely overdue. Currently background apps like OneDrive and antivirus can hijack resources to the point where the system becomes unresponsive.

  • I know at some point I'll have to work with a Windows 11 computer but I'll leave that as long as possible and hopefully Microsoft will ease the processor restrictions to the point where I can run it on a '386SX system, where it belongs.

  • That TPM thing cuts both ways. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Fly Swatter ( 30498 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:05PM (#61783143) Homepage
    So phrased another way, Microsoft says that Windows 10 is a threat to your security, national security, and the world.

  • Fewer BSOD (Score:3)

    by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:15PM (#61783177)

    The latest claim is that you're going to see fewer blue screens of death -- or maybe black screens of death -- because of the new system requirements, ...

    I actually cannot remember the last time I had a BSOD on any of my Windows 10, or previous Windows 7 systems, so this claim doesn't help me. Then again, I don't have unusual hardware.

    My systems are a little to somewhat older, but run Windows 10 fine -- and run Linux even better. I got most of them from friends upgrading to newer hardware and I simply added more RAM or a upgraded CPU, etc... As it stands, Windows 10 will probably be my last version of Windows and this will just force me to make the full time switch to Linux. I don't really need Windows for much, mainly Office (Word/Excel) files and a lot of cards I've made in Publisher -- and my mail home budget finance tracking is in Lotus 123 (which *still* runs fine on Windows 10) and have been lazy about migrating things over to Linux alternatives. I'm sure I can run Office 2010 and Lotus in a VM on my larger Linux system until I get around to porting my files to LibreOffice...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by kalpol ( 714519 )
      Same. I have terrible old machines that run Linux just fine, albeit slowly (Acer Aspire netbook anyone? used for recipes in the kitchen, slow but runs 32-bit Mint just fine otherwise), and it's just not worth the trouble. I haven't run into anything I need Windows for in the last year at least, including my games.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sconeu ( 64226 )

      Graphics drivers.

      I have had BSOD with the WHQL'ed signed, ATI Catalyst drivers. I've swapped video cards and still have them. I may have to change to an Nvidia card to see if it goes away. Happy happy joy hoy.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by vix86 ( 592763 )

      Ditto. This isn't the era of Windows 95 or ME.

      Nearly all crashes I've had in the past 10-15 years can be traced back to my video card overheating pretty much. That's it.

      On the flipside, the biggest annoyance from Windows nowadays -- almost on the level of BSODs from the olden days -- is the fucking forced "restart for updates."

    • I have somewhat unusual hardware - an Acer laptop with the NVidia/Intel Optimus video system that is unusual enough to give me fits anytime I try Linux. Windows on the other hand just works on it and has for 7 years now. I've never seen a BSOD or anything that I would call an OS-level crash. I don't even remember the last time I had an app crash. This is despite the fact that I routinely change drivers around and do some weird things that allow me to play different things out of different speakers all witho
  • ... They've always seemed to blame everyone and everything but themselves for the unreliability of Windows. I suppose the new hardware requirements will also fix all the windows Update problems we've been seeing?

  • Welcome to 1995 (Score:3)

    by IWantMoreSpamPlease ( 571972 ) on Friday September 10, 2021 @03:48PM (#61783301) Homepage Journal

    FTS: "...With the system running at 90% CPU load, it's still possible to get a responsive experience opening and using foreground apps..."

    BeOS was able to do this in 1995.
    On a single core system.
    With less than a gig of RAM.
    On a spinner hard drive.

    Better late than never, MS.

    • I gave Haiku, BeOS' open source clone, a try recently with their Beta 3.

      It still loads to a desktop in less than half a gig of RAM and is far more responsive that Windows or Linux on the same hardware.

      Donations have funded a programmer - once they import 3D accelerated graphics from Mesa and finish their Webkit 2 port it'll approach daily driver usable, i.e. if anyone has any old netbooks sitting idle.

  • This is not unique to MS.
    I can't upgrade my MacBook OS because Apple has decided it is EOL, so I am SOL.

    • Mojave 10.14 is still supported with updates, just what kind of fossil do you have?

      • Mojave 10.14 is still supported with updates, just what kind of fossil do you have?

        This article is about upgrading to the latest OS version, not maintenance updates to an old one

        And FYI, Mojave 10.14 will no longer be updated or supported after November 30, 2021.

        • the latest version will give you nothing more for running the useful software it's running right now, and an old mac book that absolutely can't run any newer version than 10.14 won't explode December 1 2021.

    • Is it even possible to have a more clear-cut case of planned obsolescence?

      Why exactly haven't you taken that to a court yet?
      Don't be so insecure. Yes, it's a crime. That's why the thing is so locked-down. It wouldn't be a crime if you had an *actual* choice. You only have that imaginary "choice" so they can say "you have a choice" while de-facto you don't.

  • and I'm not even using the Win8 machine. It's just a VM for an emergency, and there haven't been any I couldn't run, fix, or avoid on Opensuse.

  • 99.8% crash-free experience

    99.8% of what? Time? Logins? Starting a new app? PCs on a given day?

    In a company of 10,000 employees each with a Windows laptop, does that mean there are 20 expected crashes per day? Or each employee should expect a crash every 1.5 years?

    99.8% is not a vague number like some number of nines. I wonder if that number is from testing or an analytical model. Or is that just a number made up by a marketing person?

  • Will my seventh generation laptop run Linux? That was rhetorical. I don't plan on using Windows 11 on anything unless forced to by work. And whatever machine that is will not be used otherwise.

  • I have no doubt that some of the hardware and software out there is buggy shit, particularly the more off brand and chinesium it gets. But some of it is perfectly valid and MS has chosen not to support it, or people have not paid MS obscene dollars to fix their own bugs.

    And there is absolutely no way the TPM is making anything crash free. Just say no. Win7 is still perfectly fine for most home use. Win10 will last us 15 years. Just forget it.

  • If they care about security and want to double down on protection, then why aren't they building in containerization like Qubes OS? Why aren't they defaulting network connections to use VPN + TOR (Or another alt network)?

    Why not build in full for VeraCrypt and automatically encrypted all folders and files? Are they going to force disk encryption? Will they force driver signing? Will they force system signing?

    They don't care, it's all smoke show to make it seem like Windows 11 will be some impressiv

  • I don't get the desire to run W11 until 10 is EOL, and who the hell still gets excited about a new Windows version or anything else to do with operating systems unless it's code you contributed??

    W11 may be a nice to have but it's hardly a necessity, and when you accepted MSFTs TOS you bent over for whatever they choose for you. If you object, game the system, run different OS, or both like most clueful users do. You know what you signed up for.

  • Historically I wasn't your typical "M$" Slashdot basher, but since Nadella took over and drove them hard towards the "you're the product" business model that's where I'm headed. Said at the outset when they rolled out the Windows Store, "If I wanted an iPad I'd already have one", and for some strange reason that sentiment got me down-voted.

    The enigma is that while their product has become increasingly unappealing to me as a long-time customer and I contemplate making a non-Windows system my primary machine

  • The latest claim is that you're going to see fewer blue screens of death -- or maybe black screens of death

    This is a real, honest question: Does anybody actually see Windows crash with a blue/black screen anymore? I've used Windows for decades (all the way since 3.1), and I'm racking my brain trying to think of the last time I've actually SEEN Windows crash. Ten, fifteen years, maybe? I would occasionally see it long ago, but now? Never. I use it constantly at home/work (although I hate each iteration a little more than the last; IMHO it hasn't improved since Windows 2000).

    Am I an outlier, or is the BSOD

  • Search and replace Windows 11 with COVID-19 vaccine and BSODs with COVID-19 infections and they're really quite similar.

  • I have used OS X/macOS daily since version 10.0.0, and the only "Crash" (Kernel Panic) of the actual OS I have ever experienced was back in version 10.2. And that was caused by some hinky shareware scanner driver.

  • So only 2 in 1000 instructions will cause my 4.4GHz computer to crash?

  • Are they going to block my dodgy USB to serial adaptor? The only reason my PC has ever bsod'd was due to the poor quality drivers, installed via windows update.

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