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Kickstarter CEO: Let's Try a 4-Day Work Week (axios.com) 123

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Kickstarter announced Tuesday that it plans to experiment with a four-day work week in an effort to offer workers more flexibility and additional time to spend on creative pursuits. From a report: Lots of tech companies are planning to offer flexibility around where employees work post-pandemic. Now some companies are also rethinking when people work. Kickstarter plans next year to test a four-day work week with some or all of its employees, though details of that remain to be figured out, including whether all workers will have the same schedule. Dating app Bumble, meanwhile, says it's giving all employees this week off to allow a much-needed break. Kickstarter CEO Aziz Hasan told Axios that he had toyed with the notion of a four-day week in the past, but was motivated by the pandemic to actually give it a try. "What we've been all living through the last 18 months, you feel this compression on your professional life, your personal life," Hasan said. The idea of a four-day work week wasn't spurred by the company's ongoing collective bargaining negotiations, Hasan said. He added that the company's newly formed union has been supportive of the idea.
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Kickstarter CEO: Let's Try a 4-Day Work Week More

Kickstarter CEO: Let's Try a 4-Day Work Week

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  • I'd rather have a 6 hour day.

    • Re:6 hour day (Score:5, Funny)

      by ComputerGeek01 ( 1182793 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:35PM (#61513424)

      6 hour day? So just meetings then?

    • We already have most of silicon valley on a 4-day week, the 5th day they just goof off and leave Teams open so it looks like they're online. Friday is also the day when the traffic jams start at 2pm.

      • Desk jockeys have complained the most and worked the least when compared to other occupations. That's been the case for decades, perhaps centuries. Multiple TV sitcoms riff on the idea.

        • Being salaried can do this. If you're hourly, then working more hours automatically means more money. And in most places exceeding 8 hours a day or 40 hours total means double the pay for additional hours. Being salaried though, being asked to work late for a higher priority project does not give you extra money, not even an end-of-year bonus or a better raise.

          Of course with most desk jockeys you can't really measure productivity on an hourly basis anyway. I sometimes get a lot done just by sitting on th

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by xwin ( 848234 )
        I don't know what company you work for, but where I work this is no the case at all. People are working hard to get their job done. There are cars on the parking lot past 8pm on all weekdays. In my company, if you are not pulling your weight you will be a part of the next layoff. While this is uncomfortable for people including myself, our profitability is up because almost all of the people who were doing almost nothing are gone. And the generous compensation makes up for bad feelings.
        When I look at the

        • Technically, the boss cannot require you to work more than 40 hours a week in most states. People are doing this voluntarily, even if the reason to do it voluntarily is that you have way too many tasks and the deadlines are approaching.

          My father was a teacher. He was not underworking. He school day started very early in the morning and he would continue doing work after dinner. Being at the desk in the school room itself is not the entire job. He also taught in summer school. I know this doesn't fit th

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by xwin ( 848234 )
            My kid had a substitute English teacher for the whole year. The teacher was completely inaccessible for most of the year. Her excuse was that she was just a substitute and she had her own kids to take care of. Try giving this excuse in a private sector and lets see how long you will have your job.
            Your father may have been one of many good teachers. But there are plenty of bad ones who can't be fired. The public school education in the US is objectively bad by all metrics. The only thing that the school tea

            • A lot of this attitude also assumes that private schools are significantly better, it's not a "America isn't good at education" but more of a "government is shitty at eveyrthing" attitude. I have not seen significantly better education outcomes for most private schools, except for a few that are distinctly for high performing students for preparing for college and cost a ton of money. Those private schools for religious reasons don't necessarily do better, and quality is like public schools in that it dep

    • So you'd rather work 7 days a week then? At least your 7th day would only be 4 hours.

      • I suppose the article doesn't say anything about the length of the work day. Seems unreasonable to demand that everyone start working 10 hour days, people with kids probably can't do that.

  • In the long run the 4 day (Score:5, Insightful)

    by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:35PM (#61513426)
    work week might be a trap, just like remote work. If I only need an employee to work 4 days, seems like I need fewer employees, if an employee can work from home here in the US, they can work from home in, lets say India. Just wondering if the outcome won't be what those hoping for a 4 days work week think. The biggest consequences are often ones that few saw coming.
    • I don't doubt there will be places that actually apply that logic, but I'm not so sure that it will be without caveats that prevent it from being THAT prolific ... but IDK for sure.

    • if an employee can work from home here in the US, they can work from home in, lets say India.

      In some cases, yes....hell, we've seen that over the past couple decades.

      But more and more, in many jobs, people/companies are finding it is worth paying that extra money in order to have someone on the other end of that phone that actually speaks English that you can actually understand,

      • IBM does not subscribe to that philosophy even a little bit. I swear by all that is that the dude I got yesterday was not only speaking in the worst accent imaginable, along with skipping words here or there, but he also had to have a Model T Ford sitting beside him. If you've ever been around one in working order, there's no mistaking the rattling and slow cadence of that motor.

    • work week might be a trap, just like remote work. If I only need an employee to work 4 days, seems like I need fewer employees, if an employee can work from home here in the US, they can work from home in, lets say India. Just wondering if the outcome won't be what those hoping for a 4 days work week think. The biggest consequences are often ones that few saw coming.

      Indian outsourcing has been popular in the US for over 20 years. Trust me, your boss has been given the pitch from outsourcing firms as well as shithead MBAs who thought they could get promoted rapidly if they could cut costs with a global workforce. If you have a job, particularly in technology, it's because it cannot be done cheaper in India. My job "can" be done in India, but I am cheaper...because I make less mistakes and am easier to communicate with. The India equation is also not about theoretica

    • I once negotiated a 4 day work week (with a 20% pay cut, totally worth it because after taxes it was only a 14% pay cut).

      I stayed with the company as long as it was a good company to work for. After I quit, no one has asked me about it since (I don't put on my resume that I only worked 4 days). It didn't seem to affect my promotions, but who knows.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        I'm the UK 4 days a week is usually considered full time anyway. 30 hours or more. My current job is 35 hours a week.

        • I just checked what the law is in California, and apparently "full-time" is a fuzzy concept. In some cases, 40 hours a week is full time, in other cases 30 hours a week is full time.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Where a 4 day week has been tried it's often been found to be equally productive. 5 days made more sense when it was physical labour but I think it exceeds typical limits on concentration and full engagement in complex tasks.

      For a lot of clerical/engineering stuff 4 days will be just as productive and employees will have a better work/life balance.

      This could be the new frontier for companies trying to recruit good people. 4 day weeks plus decent salary, work from home...

      • Where a 4 day week has been tried it's often been found to be equally productive.

        Correct. The issue is that most people are only productive for a small number of hours per day, even if they work 8 hours (or whatever it is in your country) per day. You might think that if you cut a day a week that you lose that days productivity. But that isn't the case as people working 4 days per work are more refreshed and hence are more productive on the other 4 days.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sjames ( 1099 )

      4 day work week is a trap, remote work is a trap, working longer hours is a trap. If everything is a trap, then the only way to win is to not play the game.

    • At a previous job, one of my co-workers negotiated a 4-day workweek. Instead of working 8 hours/day for 5 days/week, he worked 10 hours/day for 4 days/week. Both work out to 40 days/week. Once you factor in time wasted commuting, it makes a lot of sense since it reduces commute time by 20%.
    • The firm is supposed to *hire* more people rather than keep the same workload over 4 days. Yes this means more cost for the firm, but keep in mind that in real constant dollar most firm employee did not get more money over the last decades, and yet productivity and benefit increased in constant dollar. In fact in the state it reached a point that some full time job are not even allowing to fully get a proper living cost.

  • I've offered to cut my pay by 20% for this... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by MikeDataLink ( 536925 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:43PM (#61513468) Homepage Journal

    I've offered more than one employer to cut my pay by 20% and give me a 4 day work week in return. No takers.

    • Re:I've offered to cut my pay by 20% for this... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by oldgraybeard ( 2939809 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:58PM (#61513530)
      It is not just your salary/wages, keep in mind an employer pays an additional 20 - 30% on average to the government for the right to hire each employee. In addition, that does not count the per employee benefit cost (healthcare, etc ) of each employee. And this cost is often unrelated to the wages paid/hours worked. So there are costs for being an employer that most employees never see or consider. So the math for not doing a 4 day work week might make sense.
      • I stated this wrong "pays an additional 20 - 30% on average to the government" really should be "additional 20 - 30% on average to the government and for benefit" the scratch pad math is an additional 1/3.

      • My total pay for healthcare by the employer is not really that high at all as a percentage of salary. Some are much higher of course, but I've got the inexpensive but high quality plan (Kaiser). The other benefits like dental, vision, smorgasbord of insurance options, are rather minimal to inconsequential.

        Really it comes down to - if you're the same productivity then the pay should not matter. However this attitude is also what leads to people assuming that they must work 80 hours a week; the boss legall

    • Improve your negotiation strategy. Start by asking for a 40% pay raise. Tell them they don't have to make a decision right now, let them go think about it. When they come back and tell you they can't do it (or if they can, then great), pause for a moment. Look at them in a disappointed view, or at least as though you are thinking. Then say, "Well, there is another option. What I really want is a 4 day work week...."

      You might even be able to get that without a pay cut.

    • That's because it's 4 days of meetings and one day of work. They obviously can't cut the day where you work, and they're reluctant to cut out a day of meetings.

    • Oh it wasn't clear from the summary. I assumed they meant four 10 hour days per week. But you really don't want to work just 4 days a week and take a 20% paycut. What if you need to find a new job? It will seriously hurt your salary negotiations. I guarantee prospective companies will look at your low salary and assume you worked 40 hrs/week.

  • Point of comparison (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:48PM (#61513490)

    Meanwhile same sector in China works on either 996 or more intensive work week schedule. For those who don't know what that means, it stands for "from 9 in the morning to 9 in the evening, 6 days a week". So 12 hours a day, six days a week.

    And essentially all of Chinese IT giants use either 996 or longer work week. So this isn't an exception, it's a norm that is considered a minimum, and there are many who work more than that. Which is one of the reasons why they're so much more price competitive when they compete in the same field as others.

    I'm not here to make a judgement which one is better. I just find it interesting how our cultures are going in opposite directions.

    • Which is one of the reasons why they're so much more price competitive when they compete in the same field as others.

      No, China is only "Price competitive" in any field because of their artificial suppression of the yuan\renminbi. The actual value of that denomination is as high as 33 cents USD. Let it come to parity and we'll see what happens to China's market dominance.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        The rule of "anyone who tries to explain a complex issue with a single criterion is an idiot" holds true here.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      A lot of young people in China are rejecting 996, especially in tech where they are quite well aware of what things are like overseas.

      Also nobody can do useful work 12 hours a day 6 days a week. The people doing that spend most of their time idle, e.g. shop counter with no customers. So tech companies know that they can't really push staff to do useful engineer on that schedule anyway.

      996 is seen as very old fashioned in China, associated with crappy jobs that their parents used to do. Similar to how very l

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        >There are a handful of people that managed to dodge propaganda.

        And there are millions ready and willing to take their place, which is why requirements for work are going up, not down in the industry in China. But math is racist to far left, so you don't have to care. I know.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          What on Earth are you on about? You think there is propaganda telling people to work longer hours or something? Have you ever been to China?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            Wait, you think there isn't? Have you ever seen any communist posters? This isn't even unique to China, it's a universal in all Communist nations.

            You can trace the fundamental cause back to problems with motivating work force in USSR of 1930s due to lack of ability to reward extra effort as equity is a fundamental Communist value and Stakhanovite movement that attempted to mitigate the problems that arose from equity.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              But China isn't Communist. They don't have production quotas or anything like that which works cause the government to want people working long hours, it's all private companies competing for employees.

    • As you say, it's *one* of the reasons, not all the reasons. The currency manipulation helps them, but there are downsides to that for the Chinese, too. Ultimately, how much you want to work in a week is mostly cultural. It's not that hard to have larger numbers of shorter shifts, it's just a small amount of management overhead. So, it's really about their culture of *wanting* to work that much. I'm not sure if it means Westerners are lazy or Chinese people are dumbfucks for allowing themselves to be overwor

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        Of course. There are many factors in this. I just find it interesting how as civilizations we're headed in opposite directions when it comes to relationship between people and work. Heck, I'd go as far as to make it "relationship between people and merit".

        But when you try to figure out why one system is more efficient than another, it's going to be a multi-factor analysis. Always. This is just one out of many factors.

    • for work that requires you to use your brain, 40 hours is about the limit. Work longer, and you'll start making more mistakes, taking longer to accomplish the same tasks etc.

      So those '996' employees won't be more productive than their Western counterparts. Probably the opposite since that kind of schedule puts you into a state of constant fatigue.

      There may be cultural factors at play: in Japan, long workdays are de rigeur because people want to be seen to be working longer than their boss.
      In the West, you s

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

        >for work that requires you to use your brain, 40 hours is about the limit. Work longer, and you'll start making more mistakes, taking longer to accomplish the same tasks etc.

        This requires that all humans have the same exact cognitive ability, same exact threshold for tiredness, same exact excitement for the subject. They have to be machines.

        The claim you're making is so fundamentally absurd, it's genuinely difficult to even begin arguing about it without just pointing out that it's so utterly absurd, th

        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            I'm guessing you've read some corporate media nonsense take on a few studies done on the subject, where it's usually observed that for a small test group picked from a specific culture and specific profession, they can observe lower performance beyond around 40 hour a week workday.

            And then, you decided to go even more scientifically illiterate than average corporate media apparatchik, and extrapolate from that to entire humanity across all nations, cultures and professions.

            Because in the post above, you can

            • Because in the post above, you can't even articulate my argument correctly.

              The problem is your argument is dumb.

              "This requires that all humans have the same exact cognitive ability, same exact threshold for tiredness, same exact excitement for the subject. They have to be machines."

              See? That is stupid. No, an average optimal work/rest/play day does not require all humans to have the exact same cognitive ability or threshold for tiredness. If you want to completely ignore average needs then you'd need above average people. So on top of the already above average intelligence peo

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

                I agree with you fully that what you stated above you think my argument is is dumb. That is in fact what I laid out above. You didn't understand it, and instead created a dumb caricature of my argument, likely because you didn't understand it.

                But that says nothing about my argument.

                The funniest part about it is that I am very against the kind of work pace that Chinese IT professionals have. I am in the group that cannot tolerate it for meaningful periods of time. But I'm also very aware that there are a lot

        • Except this has been studied [stanford.edu] by multiple institutes over the course of decades. There will be statistical outliers, but it's far from absurd.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

            That's a nice castration of science. Have you read the actual studies?

            Hint: they don't say what the castrated one page TLDR version says they do. And the small aspects that do, they have to add caveats such as "Only for this task" "Only in this nation" "Only in this culture".

            Because as any first year sociology student would be able to tell you, all of those things produce a dramatic impact on measurable outcomes. For example, in case of East Asian cultures, extremely long workdays are a norm, and their comp

            • in case of East Asian cultures, extremely long workdays are a norm, and their companies are extremely competitive with their Western counterparts.

              You're pretending long workdays are the only possible cause for that.
              In fact, there are many factors that influence competitiveness:
              1. low wages
              2. lax health, safety and environmental legislation
              3. legal loopholes like the one that makes it cheaper to ship stuff from China to my home than shipping the same package from the next town over would cost.
              4. lax IP laws that allow Chinese companies to be competitive by copying Western designs and producing them at lower cost.
              5. shady business practices like second

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

                >You're pretending long workdays are the only possible cause for that.

                My argument is the exact opposite of this. Literally, the diametric opposite.

  • 4-10 (Score:2)

    by vanyel ( 28049 )

    We just shifted to a 4-day/10hr workweek in February. I hate getting up at 6:30am, but I love having 3-day weekends - enough that when I had a chance to switch back, I didn't.

    • 4x10’s is a killer for me. I did a 4x9+4 most of my career, and while I almost never left until an hour or more past the end of the day having 10 hours as the baseline was just demoralizing.

      Personally, I think I am most effective with 4x8 and a soft Friday with two hour (unpaid) lunches. It works best for my creative and task clocks.

  • Comment removed (Score:3)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:06PM (#61514106)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

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