El Salvador Seeks World Bank Help For Bitcoin Implementation (reuters.com) 186
El Salvador has sought assistance from the World Bank as it implements its move to use bitcoin as a parallel legal tender alongside the U.S. dollar, Finance Minister Alejandro Zelaya said on Wednesday. From a report: Zelaya said the Central American country has tapped the World Bank for technical assistance on rules and implementation of bitcoin. Zelaya also said ongoing negotiations with the International Monetary Fund have been successful, though the Fund said last week it saw "macroeconomic, financial and legal issues" with the country's adoption of bitcoin. read more Zelaya said on Wednesday the IMF is "not against" the bitcoin implementation. Further reading: El Salvador saw bitcoin-based remittances rise 300% year over year in May.
Bitcoin uses more energy than a small galaxy!! (Score:2, Funny)
Quick - someone post up the usual FUD about Bitcoins energy usage. Do it before the Pacific ocean begins to boil!
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Paying USD60 per transaction seems very attractive, Bitcoin is clearly intended for daily use by regular people..
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If by regular people you mean money laundering criminals and corrupt politicians then yes
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Small timers, anyway. If you're going to launder millions/billions you still need the services of CitiCorp or Goldman Sachs, since moving as little as $20 million at a time will disturb the value of any of the crypto-currencies in a major way.
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And bit coin is the paragon of stability?!! :)
Re: Bitcoin uses more energy than a small galaxy!! (Score:2)
No one knows what you're talking about because BTC price has been steady for almost a week.
If you are following Bitcoin prices in mainstream financial news, you should know they're working off really stale data. By the time they're talking about it, it's way past done.
Re: Bitcoin uses more energy than a small galaxy!! (Score:4, Insightful)
No one knows what you're talking about because BTC price has been steady for almost a week.
Um, BTC has swung between $35 and $41 just this week - and has indeed been dropping in value over today. That's hardly steady.
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A 15% variance in 7 days is not "normal" for stocks either. Well - not good ones, at least.
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If you are concerned about what an investment does over a tiny window like 7 days you really shouldn't be investing imho.
I'm not - i have no skin in this game. But please don't characterize Bitcoin as "stable" when a single transaction can still change its value by double digits within hours.
These are little waves rocking the boat while bitcoin continues on its steady upward course.
I'd like to remind everyone that Bitcoin started skyrocketting in value less than a year ago - as in, it is not doomed to go up forever, and in fact there's little reason to expect it to keep growing 6x like it did over that period. Personally, i find this explosion of growth and interest more related to a speculative bubble than anything
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Please. BTC hit $10k around Sept 2017 and basically stood in that range right until Oct/Nov 2020, where the boom we're now in began to unfold. This is not a matter of faith, the numbers are easy to find: http://bitcoinity.org/markets [bitcoinity.org]
I see you're invested in the cryptocurrency concept, and i wish you the best. But don't be fooled to believe that the only direction BTCs value will go in the future is up.
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Sooner or later nation states will begin to figure out that BTC means they can loan and repay value to one another with a consistent unit of trade none of them control and which they don't have to put in the hands of a private party. The fiat 'price' won't matter.
Oh, you sweet summer child. Nations are well ahead of you here, already working on standardized CBDC across central banks. See f.ex. https://www.reuters.com/busine... [reuters.com].
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But it's currently UP from $35k to $41k, so the GP comment "watching BTC's value slide 5% over a single day" is essentially not based on any kind of current price action.
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Well, not really. It is right now down to ~$38k, and still in a slight downward slope.
But that's not the point. "Swing" does not mean "go down", it just means unstable. BTC has been going up and down up to 15% just this week alone.
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Which is?
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I plan my future a week at a time so its all good
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I'm just amused that the lord-high-mucky-mucks in El Salvador are still pretending that the World Bank/IMF has any function beyond handing over public resources to private corporations for pennies on the dollar. Professional pols are aghast that China's 'Belt & Road' program is so popular in the Third World, but it's building public infrastructure in sustainable ways rather than projects to benefit foreign corporations while destroying the local economy so they shouldn't be surprised.
Uhmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, let's ask a for-profit NGO for help in subverting the very foundation of their business model.
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That should be the default reaction for anything that the World Bank and IMF recommend. In my entire life I have never seen a WB/IMF "solution" for an economic issue benefit the actual citizens of the country affected. Not once (although admittedly a few may have slipped by me). Austerity, privatization, currency devaluation (when demanded by the WB/IMF), dollarization, none of their normal tricks eve work as predicted in the last half a century but they still recommend the same things over and over and
What's the big deal? (Score:2)
Put a government stamp of approval on a simplified Strike NFC/QR-code payment app which uses Breeze&co for Lightning transactions and hides almost all the complexity, defaulting to storing balances in USDC. Bob's your uncle.
What if Breeze&co stops subsidizing Lightning transactions? Well, then they're shit out of luck ... but the pump and dumpers will have cashed out already, who cares.
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Oops, it's Breez.
And I am going to (Score:3, Funny)
put a new engine in my car. Except I have no idea how to do that, does anyone want to come over an lend a hand?
I've been wondering about how this would play out (Score:5, Insightful)
Having BTC as legal tender means that it has to be accepted for payment everywhere, which would be a massive undertaking anywhere in the planet, let alone a country with the issues El Salvador faces.
This would end up playing up as little more than a political stunt for Bukele.
Re: I've been wondering about how this would play (Score:2)
Maybe. But USD's status as legal tender in the U.S. doesn't stop merchants from being credit only. Plenty don't accept cash.
Legal tender has to do with debts, not sales.
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So you're familiar with retailers who don't take cash then.
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Well, the point is that legal tender status doesn't force anyone to accept that form of payment for sales. Only for debts.
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There are several boutiques and coffee shops here that don't take cash. They don't get any of my business.
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If you're running a shop where 99% of people are going to use credit anyway, then it doesn't usually make sense to accept cash. Handling cash can be expensive. It's only worth it if you can get enough cash transactions so that the cost is eaten by the volume.
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Handling cash can be expensive.
And credit card transactions are free in your world?
Re: I've been wondering about how this would play (Score:2)
No, just cheaper than handling cash in many cases.
Re: I've been wondering about how this would play (Score:2)
And because you pumped before paying, they are required to take your cash as legal tender for the debt you accrued getting gas.
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Credit/checks/transfers still means you're accepting payments in USD. "Cash" != "Legal tender".
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"Legal Tender" isn't what you are willing to accept, it's what you are required to accept.
If a debt exists, they have to accept 'legal tender', not demand your personal labor or firstborn, or something.
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Indeed. My point is, it does not mean necessarily paying cash in hand. A check, credit card transfer or deposit is *not* legal tender, but a mean for holder of the check can eventually receive legal tender for the debt.
Or, to put it another way. A business can legally reject payment in cash, but must still accept some form of payment which converts to USD.
Re: I've been wondering about how this would play (Score:2)
It means they have to accept cash in hand if that's what's being offered. They can also accept check, credit, or the blood of your firstborn, but they are only required to accept cash.
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I think you don't understand what "legal tender" means. For example, you seem to believe that paper bills and debit/credit point-of-sale are different tenders within the US.
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For Pete's sake.
"Legal tender is anything recognized by law as a means to settle a public or private debt or meet a financial obligation, including tax payments, contracts, and legal fines or damages. The national currency is legal tender in practically every country. A creditor is legally obligated to accept legal tender toward repayment of a debt."
Again, you're confusing "cash" with "legal tender"; these are related, but not interchangeable terms. If you run a business in the US, you must accept payments
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Dude. Everywhere IN THE COUNTRY - can't believe this has to be spelled out.
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actually even that doesn't work. Third world shitholes prefer the USD for major purchases
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El Salvador's current legal tender is the US dollar.
Re:I've been wondering about how this would play o (Score:5, Funny)
Third world shitholes prefer the USD for major purchases
Third world shithole checklist:
- Uses USD for transactions
- Former president is a sockpuppet of a powerful nation
- Has armed militias
- Has an attempted coup by said militias
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No guns, no coup.
So according to you there were no coup attempts before the invention of the firearm?
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Rump couldn't even carry out a coup in frelling Bolivia successfully. The generals he employed actually allowed honest elections, which put the Socialists right back into power. Not a single foreign policy success in four years, that has to be some kind of new record.
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And yet if Greed finds it favorable enough, it will bend fiat currency over and fuck it in the ass sideways, and not think twice about it.
Please, it's a matter of practicality. Even if El Salvador got their act together and put genuine resources into adopting BTC, there're still massive technical and infrastructure hurdles to overcome.
In much of the first world you can go by with just a credit/debit card and never ever touch cash if you don't want to. It's pretty much the polar opposite in ES; how do you start to set up a BTC-capable network when basic point-of-sale terminals are a rare sight?
Not Surprised. (Score:3)
Re: Not Surprised. (Score:2)
Using someone else's currency as your own when your economy isn't as strong as theirs inevitably leads to big problems. The government doesn't have any mechanism for monetary management.
The primary benefit is to grab onto that 2% GDP they lose from remittances.
The secondary benefit of Bitcoin for El Salvador - I'm guessing - is that the government can mine green BTC for cheap using geothermal, which gives them a reserve fund for monetary management.
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Converting it on an exchange requires that:
1) There's an exchange in the country
2) The exchange has enough dollars
3) The exchange wants to give you all those dollars
In the US there are lots of US dollars, they're easy to get, and proportionally few people want to trade bitcoin for them, so it's not much of a problem. In El Salvador there are many fewer dollars and getting them can be a bit of a problem. Getting enough to satisfy infrastructure-level mining by the state is probably a no go.
But if the state c
El Salvador Currency Exchange (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:El Salvador Currency Exchange (Score:5, Interesting)
Not really money laundering per se. About 1/4 of El Salvador GDPs is personal remittances from other countries. Which is insane, yes, but gives BTC a raison d'etre - "normal" money transfer fees are significant compared to BTC.
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Oh, you think they use major money transfer services like Western Union. That is so cute.
Oh, they do - i actually know someone who wires money to El Salvador that way. Do they use WU exclusively though? No idea.
They can send checks, money orders, and even cash.
You do understand what "money order" is, right? :)
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Yes, I understand what money order is. Perhaps you don't.
Much like a check, a money order is a paper form of payment. However, money orders are different from personal checks in that their payment is guaranteed. [forbes.com]
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Bank to bank transfers are free, so if you have an in country bank just transfer it there i mean if you want to do it legally otherwise use HSBC
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Um, i don't think that's generally true, even for international branches for the same bank.
Hell, it's not even true within the US.
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It’s been true at least for my bank though several mergers over the last 20 years but thats just me and one giant bank
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Easier to just send your relatives a cash card (assuming you trust them). My brother-in-law in Peru can withdraw $500/day for a $3 fee, and receive it in US Dollars. We built a house there that way.
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$6 is a bit high, but less than the fee to cash a check.
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Mod parent up, though I think the dictator's ambitions are more modest than that. Unlikely that he's thinking much beyond laundering his own dirty money.
Now in China's case, the cryptocurrency ambitions are probably much grander. However I think Xi's ambitions trend more towards extortion than starting another Chinese laundry. "Nice economy you got there. All that fancy cryptocurrency wired in. Sure would be a shame if something bad happened to it, eh?"
tracability (Score:3)
I've been reading that blockchain can create traceable transactions which would be positive for a national money system.
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Can you imagine a typical user trying to mange paycheck wallets and not clicking on that nice ransom ware email
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No one fell for scams before Bitcoin.
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I don't know about you, but pretty much anybody who sends me money likes to know who I am. Employers and the government especially. People who accept money from me also usually end up knowing who I am. They have all sorts of excuses: "sir, I need your address so I can ship you the item," and the like.
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So when you buy something with that bitcoin how do you work it? Blind drop in a park somewhere? I don't think that scales up very well. When you invoiced that person, did they know who you were? Did you put your physical address, name, or company name on the invoice? Or just "send 75 bitcoin to wallet #X and you get your stuff back"?
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I don't think it would be difficult for a government to tie identities to most bitcoin wallets if bitcoin was legal tender. The government itself isn't going to send or receive money from unidentified accounts. Employers are required to know your info and report it to the government so if you get paid by bitcoin your wallet becomes known. Pay rent, order groceries, anything like that.
There will be the usual black market and maybe some edge cases like you, but those would be cash under the table types withou
World Bank rejects El Salvador's BTC help request (Score:5, Informative)
As reported by Axios. [axios.com]
Narco states (Score:2)
Narco states are of course among the first to make bitcoin legal tender. So much of the wealth of criminals and corrupt government officials would now be in bitcoin. Bitcoins prevalence will be a measure of how corrupt and broken a society is.
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No, the wealth of the major criminals and corrupt government officials will still be at CitiCorp, Morgan/Stanley, Credit Suisse/First Boston and the like. Bitcoin is only for the small timers.
Everytime I see BTC on slashdot (Score:2)
Everytime I see BTC on slashdot, I am reminded of the saying:
Ok, it works in Practice, BUT it Won't work in theory.
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Only in El Salvador. It's not like they can regulate BTC elsewhere in the world.
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Making greenbacks legal tender means that, at some level, it will need be regulated.
That will make all the cash-only bros go apeshit.
And then this will fail.
You were saying something about crippling regulation...
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I only still visit /. to laugh at people like you
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Imaging discussing investment returns on currency with a straight face.
What do you mean by this? People have been making money from currency trading since long before crypto existed. They've probably been doing it ever since two different currencies first existed.
I know guys that make big money trading the top 10 international currencies. There are plenty of online platforms that will give you good leverage to trade currencies, and if you keep an eye on macroeconomic trends, you can make a motza.
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Currency speculators are possibly the only life form more detestable than mercenaries. George Soros should be remembered for the families in southeast Asia living in garbage dumps after he helped crash their currencies, not for the piddling amounts he gives to political causes.
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I only still visit /. to laugh at people like you.
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A bank works by lending money and asking people to pay back with more of the same currency. Banks donâ(TM)t make money by just seeing returns on their dollars.
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Banks make money a lot of ways. Customers complain about service fees for example, without realizing how many billions that amounts to over the whole customer base. Then there is money laundering, which just in the US brings in $100-$200 billion a year (we're the world's largest money laundry). Transaction fees, currency exchange fees, and the gods help you if you need to transfer any large amount of money from one currency to another. Interest on loans is only one small part of their revenue stream.
Re: This. Will. Fail. (Score:2)
The counterparty risk with lightning is unpredictable transaction costs (high ones too, unless someone else is paying for them) and more importantly temporarily losing access to your money in an uncooperative channel closure.
Breez uses VC money to hide all that for people ... for the moment. They are certainly running a loss on their service, enjoy it while it lasts.
Re: This. Will. Fail. (Score:2)
How the fuck is it centralized if I can set up my own node?
Ignorance won't get you far. Willful ignorance even less.
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Well, imagine it as setting up your little own BTC network on top of the "real" one, and then running third party transactions. YOU are the central point for all of them, who are now trusting you to eventually materialize those transaction down.
The parent poster is right. Lightning tries to speed up transactions at the cost of centralization.
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But you can setup a LN channel between every two parties. Sure, you can use LN centralized. Just like you can centralize BTC by putting it on Coinbase or some other online wallet. But nothing about BTC or LN requires that.
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El Salvador gave up on its own currency years ago, they use the US dollar.
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You mistake how the government there is run. The president and most of the legislature already work for the kidnappers, and won't let the victim ask anyone else for advice.
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awww, look at the poor AC mad no one likes his outdated ignorant opinion.
So sad.