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Bitcoin

Over $200 Billion Wiped Off Cryptocurrency Market in a Day (cnbc.com) 146

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Bitcoin and other digital currencies plunged on Friday as a proposed capital gains tax hike from U.S. President Joe Biden led to a wave of selling. From a report: At around 9:30 a.m. ET, bitcoin was down 7.6% in the last 24 hours at $49,000, according to Coin Metrics data. It's the first time bitcoin has traded below $50,000 since early March. Ether fell to $2,255, down 10.7%. XRP, the fifth-biggest cryptocurrency, plunged 16%. This wiped out more than $200 billion of value from the entire cryptocurrency market, according to data from CoinMarketCap. "The market has run up quite a bit overall, and it's probably cooling off before the next leg up," Vijay Ayyar, head of business development at cryptocurrency exchange Luno, told CNBC by email. President Biden is expected to raise long-term capital gains tax for the wealthiest Americans to 43.4%, including a surtax. That would be higher than the top federal tax rate on wage income. The new tax rate would apply to returns on assets held in taxable accounts and sold after more than a year. This triggered a sell-off in stock markets overnight, with all three major U.S. indexes ending Thursday's session in the red. Analysts said fears over Biden's capital gains tax proposal may be extending to crypto investors, who have had a great year with the price of bitcoin having climbed more than sixfold in the last 12 months.
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Over $200 Billion Wiped Off Cryptocurrency Market in a Day More

Over $200 Billion Wiped Off Cryptocurrency Market in a Day

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  • I am using this opportunity to buy Monero. How much will I buy? YOUâ(TM)LL NEVER KNOW. Monero.

    • time to buy if you have any spare cash, alright.

      • Maybe not (Score:5, Insightful)

        by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:07AM (#61304982)
        There's serious talk of legalizing marijuana in America at the Federal Level and of a crack down on money laundering via crypto currency. If those 2 things happen it'll tank the price and chase out the speculators. Then it just becomes a Greater Fool rush to see who gets caught holding the bag.

        • ...to see who gets caught holding the bag.

          With their banks having received permission from the CCP to buy gold at will the Chinese might be looking at the dollar in the same manner. Everything is being thrown up in the air.

        • Who's buying weed with crypto at this point? Even if you live in a state where it's illegal still you just drive to one where it isn't to buy it. If you're too lazy you can just buy it second hand from someone who isn't and drives there to pick it up.

          Federal marijuana legalization will do nothing to to the value of crypto currencies.

          • I checked Google Maps and it's an 18 hour round-trip to the nearest state that has legalized recreational use. Since there probably isn't a dispensary right on the border, in the middle of the desert, it'd take even longer than that.

            It's not so much a matter of being lazy, as not wanting to do unpaid long-haul trucking every other weekend to pick up herb. Much cheaper and easier to have it delivered, than burning through multiple tanks of gas driving to New Mexico.

          • of the banking system. Even if nobody's paying in BTC they're likely storing their cash in the stuff for lack of anywhere else they can put it.

      • time to buy if you have any spare cash, alright.

        Yes, if you put your spare cash into cryptos then you will no longer have any spare cash to worry about. If you had even bought tulips instead, you would have bulbs you could plant and enjoy.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      I am using this opportunity to buy Monero. How much will I buy? YOUâ(TM)LL NEVER KNOW. Monero.

      Exactly nothing. Because unlike you, I am neither stupid nor trying to rip of stupid people by trying to pump.

    • Speaking of Monero, I was at a tech conference a few years ago in which Monero has its own booth.

      Monero held a 'after party' at a local nightclub and I went in to take a peek. More specifically, I stood beside the bar and looked at how the attendees pay for their drinks (what, you think the drinks are free? Heh.)

      Everyone was paying with their credit cards. Granted it was dark and I couldn't tell if all the cards are crypto-back debit cards, but for such a large concentration of crypto enthusiasts that like

  • There is something very, very wrong (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @10:52AM (#61304904)
    with our civilization when numbers in a computer not backed up by a government (and more to the point it's democratic and military institutions) can have that much value assigned to it.

    There is way, way too much value being tossed around there with little or no oversight. It's at the point where we have to start worrying about whether it's going to affect the economy at large. There's a reason we regulated banks after the 1930s. And the size of these crypto markets is starting to make them functionally banking institutions. If they keep growing unchecked when they pop (and they will) it's going to take the entire economy down, and all of us with it.

    Basically, this is looking like another case of doing something that's illegal for a good reason but getting away with it because it's "on a computer". Like Uber & labor law or those real money fantasy football leagues where you can gamble online quasi legally.

    • There is Another (Score:2, Insightful)

      by SuperKendall ( 25149 )

      when numbers in a computer not backed up by a government can have that much value assigned to it.... There is way, way too much value being tossed around there with little or no oversight.

      Here's a tip; if you find this upsetting you may want to avoid reading any details at all about the Federal Reserve.

      • Re:There is Another (Score:4, Insightful)

        by burtosis ( 1124179 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:43PM (#61305414)
        Here’s a further tip: Don’t look to hard at what exactly underpins the derivative market with multiple synthetic copies of shares, failure to delivers, brokerages selling to themselves to move markets, and the liquidity/instability issues the lack of actual collateral created. One could say that the market taking a dip was just as much about the SEC increasing collateral requirements at the exact same time creating a sell off as ludicrously over leveraged entity scrambled to sell off to meet the new requirements.

    • Re:There is something very, very wrong (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Meneth ( 872868 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:04AM (#61304962)

      These 200 billion aren't real money; they're the hypothetical value of all the bitcoin if they could have been sold at the previous price without the price changing.

      As we just saw, when a commodity is sold, the price drops.

      • These 200 billion aren't real money

        That could be said about a lot of currencies. What constitutes “real money” anymore?

        • Money in and of itself is an abstract concept. You cannot eat it, fuck it, or breathe it. Essentially it's worthless in any form.
      • it's starting to attract real money. e.g. wealthy speculators with too much money (since we keep cutting their taxes and letting them buy up everything for cheap during economic collapses like 2008). We gave the folks at the top too much money and there's not enough safe investments for it. So they're chasing riskier and riskier investments, if only to stay ahead of inflation.

        That's how you get real money chasing fake money. And it's a recipe for disaster. When the bubble bursts they pull in all their a
        • Given the derivative market has a dollar value about 10x higher than the underlying assets, I think you may have this backwards. Real money is starting to move into crypto as uncertainty about US financial market stability increases.
          • it would mean the people who head up our economy, the "Captains of Industry" are moving their money from something with 10x the exposure to something with infinity exposure (e.g. Bitcoin has no underlining assets, unless you count the drugs & money laundering which could go away at a moment's notice).

            That's ultimately my point I guess. The people leading our economy, the ones we're trusting with our lives, seem like a bunch of idiots throwing money around because they have it, and not the experts th
            • I think you misunderstand how derivatives work. You don’t get to just double the asset value by counting it twice, the exposure of the derivative market can also go to zero or at least quickly approach it. That’s like saying that the value of a loan in dollars is the same as the underlying asset, the home. In a case of hyper inflation you could wipe your butt with $10k bills cause it’s cheaper than TP then send it in to cover the loan. In this case the value of the underlying asset isn
              • In theory derivatives are supposed to be backed by assets and highly regulated. Now, I know that after 4 years of Trump they're not (what little regulator gains we made after 2008 were stripped away by the GOP under his watch). But that's at least the idea. And there is still at least a *little* regulation in place.

                Crypto is the wild wild west. And you can't change that without turning it into the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be. If the gov't moves in and regulates it then it becomes a really

                • In theory derivatives are supposed to be backed by assets and highly regulated. Now, I know that after 4 years of Trump they're not (what little regulator gains we made after 2008 were stripped away by the GOP under his watch). But that's at least the idea. And there is still at least a *little* regulation in place.

                  I hate all the crap trump pulled but I can’t blame the financial regulation problems on him alone, it’s been badly eroding since at least the 80s. Yes, they are supposed to be based on actual assets, and yes in theory it can make good financial sense and policy to have a market of them. The problem is we put the people running it in charge of regulation and they have gone off the deep end. The last crash was criminal acts from the top down to bundle up sub prime mortgage derivatives as

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by sjames ( 1099 )

          And that, in a nutshell, is why tax cuts for the rich do not ever trickle down and actually help the economy. They would much rather buy magic beans than pay people to do real work or invest in businesses that will. Even when they DO invest in actual businesses they prefer the ones that are firing over the ones that are hiring.

      • I think what parent means to say is, the market cap of a currency is just the current value multiplied by the number of coins. So if CryptoX is valued at 1.00 $ and there are 1 million coins, you have a market cap of 1 million. A common misconception is that people invested 1 million into that coin.
        The price is determined by supply and demand. In one extreme example, someone could have bought all 1 million coins for a cent. If later people are willing to pay 1 $ per coin, the market cap will be one million

      • Please don't use the word "commodity". Cryptocurrencies are not a commodity. Commodities have real use.

        Pork bellies are a commodity; one pork belly equates to one pig which on average equates to a quantity of meat grow and slaughtered that can be consumed for food.

        Copper is a commodity. Copper is used in all sorts of electronics manufacturing from small electronics to utility power lines.

        Energy is a commodity. Crude oil in a barrel is used to power vehicles of all types at a known rate.

        C

    • What's so special about being backed by a government. There are plent of cases in history where a currency or other medium of exchange was not attached to a government. There are probably advantages to having a government involved, where regulation and taxation is more consistently applied. But there are disadvantages as well.

      • Re: There is something very, very wrong (Score:4, Interesting)

        by JoeyRox ( 2711699 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:11AM (#61305010)
        What's so special about being backed by a government.

        The power to tax and leverage federal assets to back the value of the currency.

      • Re: There is something very, very wrong (Score:5, Interesting)

        by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:12AM (#61305012)
        Well, For one thing you get some regulation to prevent things like currency manipulation. Yes, there's a *lot* of regulation on our monetary supply to keep the value stable.

        As for having weak or no government regulation, well, that's what got us Black Friday. The 2008 crash was another good example.

        Also it's not just about regulation, the government has the resources to do emergency fixes (again, like what we did in 2008) to prevent a total economic collapse. With Crypto there's nobody in charge. That sounds nice but it quickly devolves into "everyman for himself".

        It's like when a fire breaks out. You want alarms when the fire starts, sprinklers to slow the spread, you want fire drills so everybody exists in an orderly fashion. If you don't have those things then everybody either burns to death or gets trampled except a handful of lucky folks near the exists when they smell smoke.
        • It’s hilarious because everyone agrees capitalism only “works” in a free market and free markets are the result of heavy handed regulation with actual teeth. Yet at the same time, the same people want zero regulation which guarantees devolution into no rules, might makes right, survival of the richest, take as much and whatever you can, while economy of scale puts everything into a few families handing it down pretty much like the kings Americans espoused to hate.

      • Re: There is something very, very wrong (Score:5, Informative)

        by UnknownSoldier ( 67820 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:31PM (#61305348)

        > What's so special about being backed by a government.

        So you want a currency that anyone can just duplicate, arbitrarily change its worth overnight, or mess with supply and demand?

        Snippet from The Federal Reserve was created 100 years ago. This is how it happened. [washingtonpost.com]

        Alexander Hamilton, the first Treasury secretary, believed a national bank would stabilize the new government's shaky credit and support a stronger economy -- and was an absolute necessity to exercise the new republic's constitutional powers.

        Running an economy without a central bank empowered to issue paper money caused more than a few problems in late 19th-century America. For example, the supply of dollars was tied to private banks' holdings of government bonds. That would have been fine if the need for dollars was fixed over time. But one overarching lesson of financial history is that that's not the case. In times of financial panic, for example, everybody wants cash at the same time (that's what happened in fall 2008).

        Without a central, government-backed bank able to create money on demand, the American banking system wasn't able to provide it. The system wasn't elastic, meaning there was no way for its supply of money to adjust with demand. People would try to withdraw more money from one bank than it had available, the bank would fail, and then people from other banks would withdraw their funds, creating a vicious cycle that would lead to widespread bank failures and the contraction of lending across the economy. The result was economic depression. It happened every few years. One particularly severe panic in 1873 was so bad that until the 1930s, the 1870s were the decade known as the "Great Depression." There were lesser panics in 1884, 1890 and 1893.

        Then came the Panic of 1907, the one that finally persuaded American lawmakers to deal with their countryâ(TM)s backward financial system.

        • A government can change the value of your currency, create more of it, loan it at different rates. Governments can confiscate your currency, block you from transferring it in or out of country, freeze your assets.

          Given that both private individuals can manipulate private currency, and governments can manipulate fiat money. I don't see a difference other than in degrees.

          One of the core functions of the Fed in the 20th century is to manipulate the value of currency. It is/was fundamental to macroeconomic theo

          • You make some very good points, and I mostly agree with them. Yes at the end of the day it doesn't make TOO much difference but there is one TINY thing that is different.

            Citizens can hold the government accountable.

            Citizens have the right to issue private currency. Good luck holding them accountable when they start manipulating it.

            It is not an accident that most civilizations / nations have a single source of supply for its monetary system.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          And just as then the elitists use this to protect themselves largely at the expense of everyone else.

          What really happens during this panics is deflation the defaults reduce the money supply sending the value of CASH and hard assets moon-ward. Ma and Pa farmer are ok because the value of their 160 acres, the house on it and the $200 in the coffee can the have buried some place goes up.

          The "wealthy" speculators though see their bonds defaulted on and than it occurs to everyone that so much credit is being des

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by sjames ( 1099 )

        Your dollar is legal tender for all debts public and private. If you owe someone money, they are obliged to accept your dollars (at least in the U.S.). They are free to laugh uncontrollably if instead you offer them shitteecoins.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Junta ( 36770 )

      Well, economy is kind of funny and quantifying 'wealth', 'resources', 'productivity, etc under all manner of contexts and sorts with a singular number is when you get down to it, kind of weird.

      For example, if you add the market cap of all companies traded in US dollars, there's *technically* 5 times more US dollars worth of stock than exist US dollars in the entire world. It is numbered as such, but by definition, it is impossible to actually get that many dollars for that much stock, since there aren't en

      • He might be able to extract the full the full 170 billion by selling deep ITM call options (across a bunch of staggered dates and strikes - so it doesn't skew premiums to much). As an outright market sale though - it would definitely tank the price..

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          That would be interesting because I doubt they could be two deep in the money because there would not be enough open interest for those scale volumes. My suspicion is it won't work because people watch options interest pretty closely. Massive flows of short calls being opened is going been seen as pretty bearish and probably start depressing the underlying pretty fast. Not sure call premiums will out run it long.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Junta ( 36770 )

          Certainly that could get *more* money out of the activity (a straight market sale would immediately tank all interest before it many purchases are executed, versus slowly consuming all interest, but still coming something well shy of $170b of interest in the company).

    • with our civilization when numbers in a computer not backed up by a government (and more to the point it's democratic and military institutions) can have that much value assigned to it.

      Meanwhile, rich humans piss away millions on rare art, cars, baseball cards, and locks of hair.

      Humans have been paying stupid money for stupid shit for stupid long. My Dad taught me long ago that something is only worth what others are willing to pay. People want to pay $50K+ for a "bitcoin", or $50K for a wristwatch? Have at it. It's all just overpriced stuff at the end of the day.

      You can call it an "investment" when you actually sell and profit from it. Until then, you're just a rich hoarder collecti

    • In Cuba they have two currencies. One for the tourists (ie. Ultra rich) then the citizens. In the best interest of every citizen, they canâ(TM)t get away, they canâ(TM)t own tourist money, and they canâ(TM)t plant a lemon tree in their yard without going to jail. In another very large country the situation is the same. The working class is property of the party. But they are ultra capitalist. Same pieces, one ultra left and one ultra right. They also have a currency for the locals.

      The ultra p

  • I was just thinking crypto might be where people go with their money when they're scared inflation is coming, but it sounds like you can't escape it there - you get hit with huge taxes anyway? How are capital gains not at least inflation adjusted?

    • You should be able to claim deflation as a loss. consultat your tax advisor if this ever happens.

      Paying tax with inflated dollars is great though. Also a great way to pay a loan.

      • Paying tax with inflated dollars is great though. Also a great way to pay a loan.

        That would be great if salaries and wages tracked with inflation, except mostly they do not (not without significant lag anyway)...

        So the end effect if inflation is mostly that things get more expensive for you.

        • Some tech companies now have a mandatory raise of around 2.5%. Which roughly covers inflation, at least for the last 10 years, but not a great number if inflation takes a sharp turn upwards.
          If you're working there and only getting this amount every year, don't pat yourself on the back. It just means the company isn't so unhappy with you yet to have fired you.

  • This news is good for Bitcoin.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kaenneth ( 82978 )

      If you compare how little BTC dropped vs the entire slate of other Cryptos, VERY. ETH/DOGE/POOPCOIN isn't gonna outdo it anytime soon.

  • Bitcoin plunges to (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ArchieBunker ( 132337 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:08AM (#61304996)

    Levels not seen since one month ago. Wow.

  • Only for millionaires (Score:4, Informative)

    by detritus. ( 46421 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:10AM (#61305002)

    Capital gains are only proposed to be raised on people earning over a million. Not across the board.

  • correlation does not imply causation, etc (Score:4, Insightful)

    by clovis ( 4684 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:12AM (#61305014)

    Bitcoin and other digital currencies plunged on Friday as a proposed capital gains tax hike from U.S. President Joe Biden led to a wave of selling.

    I'm seriously doubting that that there is a relationship between the losses in a largely tax-immune international pseudo currency and a change to US tax law.

    BTW, the indices for the US stock market (Dow, S&P, etc) are all up today as of 11:00AM Friday.

    • Re:correlation does not imply causation, etc (Score:5, Insightful)

      by timeOday ( 582209 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @11:16AM (#61305026)
      Yeah, the quest to explain movements in asset prices is iffy anyways, but cryptocurrencies are that squared, because they've always been volatile, and are anchored by nothing.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rinikusu ( 28164 )

        Penny stocks and pyramid schemes. Everything you need to know about crypto prices can be gleaned by the shit that caused the SEC to have to come in and start regulating penny stocks. The fact that some coins actually could be useful makes no difference.

        Nano. Fast (usually). Feeless (always).

      • If you think asset value is a bit untethered, you may want to avoid looking into derivative markets.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

      It also doesn't seem reasonable because if you were worried about a capital gains change you might sell your bitcoin, realize the gain, then buy it back again.

  • I refuse to eat a single morsel of food until BTCUSD [yahoo.com] is back above $50K

  • Some peoples wealth value was lost, but no money was lost.

    Say I bought $1000 of bitcoin (a fraction of a bitcoin). At that time of the transaction I had lost that $1000 and someone had gained that $1000. What I got was a product (a Bitcoin voucher hash number). Now if Bitcoin dropped to 0. The guy who collected my $1000 would sill have that $1000, and my Bank Account wouldn't have changed... However I would be in possession of a worthless item. Now if that Bitcoin went back to above my purchase pri

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Mostly true for trading. What is lost all the time is all the effort for "mining", which is 100% wasted as resources get consumed, but nothing of value is produced.

  • Can't pass Senate (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bwt ( 68845 )

    In the senate, no republican will support this, and so either the dems have to go nuclear and remove the filibuster or they won't get it. To remove the filibuster, they'd need every single democrat to agree. To get the capital gains increase, they'd need every dem on both the filibuster and the tax hike. The chances of this happening are approximately 1 in 10^9.

    Never mind that putting capital gains taxes higher than income taxes is lunacy. You want to subsidize people investing in capital instead of consump

    • In the senate, no republican will support this, and so either the dems have to go nuclear and remove the filibuster or they won't get it. To remove the filibuster, they'd need every single democrat to agree. To get the capital gains increase, they'd need every dem on both the filibuster and the tax hike. The chances of this happening are approximately 1 in 10^9.

      Never mind that putting capital gains taxes higher than income taxes is lunacy. You want to subsidize people investing in capital instead of consumption. This jitter is nothing compared to the selloff that would happen if this seems likely to pass.

      I would not bet on it. If it is sold properly, Republicans may find much of their base is mad at greedy techies making billions while they lose jobs. It's all about getting the right message out, which is this sticks it to the elites who think they are better than you.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Kaenneth ( 82978 )

        Voters vs Donors.

        Republicans can always use the money from the rich to lie to the poor some more.

    • I also don't think it will happen. But like any offer, a counter will be made. Maybe 25% cap gains tax for 1M+ income. It is a game, start high and then 25 sounds good. If you started with 25, you'd end up back at 20.
    • The last election showed that the republicans need to move left in order to stay relevant. Its obviously what people want. I disagree with taxes, but the american people voted for more taxes so...

    • I agree, but only if you redefine capital investment.

      I think we need to split capital gains into two classes: "buy low - sell high" gains and "provided capital to an enterprise that created wealth" gains.

      I would tax "buy low - sell high" at the highest rate and "gained from creating wealth" at the lowest rate, and I'd probably tax wages at the same as "gained from creating wealth."

    • It's a change in taxes. That's covered by using Reconciliation. The Democrats recently got a ruling that gives them a path to use Reconciliation more than once per budget year. Only 50 votes plus Harris's tie breaker would be needed.

      And you're right, this is lunacy. But we're talking about the progressives that are running the White House (and the Biden puppet). All they see is rich people with money to confiscate through taxes and huge spending programs to fund. They don't see logic or understand eco

  • When are people going to learn? (Score:3)

    by Rick Schumann ( 4662797 ) on Friday April 23, 2021 @12:00PM (#61305164) Journal
    'Cryptocurrency' is a troll-meme. Right up there with NFTs.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      'Cryptocurrency' is a troll-meme. Right up there with NFTs.

      Never. There is always an ample supply of stupid people in the human race, and some of them either have money or are willing to gamble with money they cannot afford to lose.

  • I thought cryptocurrencies can only go up because they are deflationary!!! /s

  • Nope (Score:2)

    by gweihir ( 88907 )

    Since all that "value" is hot air, nothing was wiped. And all the money anybody put in still exists, except for the incredible wasteful cost of "mining". Some basic understanding of economics required.

  • ... then a change in value is a "realized capital gain", even if you didn't convert them to USD.

  • Currency is merely an instrument to facilitate trade. The alternative would be bartering. In order for a currency to be Useful, it needs to maintain a relatively stable level. As such bitcoin has been a massive failure, and continues to be so. Would you write a contract to buy or sell a house, with bitcoin? Between the time the ink is dry on that contract, and the sale is closed, you could have lost your entire net worth.

  • I think it will drop another 10-15% the crypto market seems to go in 4 week cycles (2 weeks down 2 weeks up).

    ADA, ETH, and BTC are the safest if you're looking to get your feet wet.

    Crypto is putting money in the pockets of technologists and dreamers, soon it will be putting money in the pocket of speculators. If you want to start a company some day buy some.

  • It sounds shocking to say "200 billion is lost", when that amount was never there in the first place.

    This is the "market cap" or valuation, which means the value if everybody was to cash out at the current price. Obviously that will never happen.

    Say, I have the most delicate melons in a box. 10 of them from the first harvest in Japan. Someone comes over and offer a cool million for a melon. That makes the rest "valued" at a total $9 million.

    However if I cannot find any other customer willing to pay that mon

  • Bitcoin is the intersection of Money, The Internet and Decentralization.

    The people who will proifit if BTC goes up are believers dreamers and technologists.

    BTC is inherently deflationary and though any currency can be used for nefarious purposes evidence suggests this is a tiny percentage of what BTC is used for. It also removes the ethical problems of investing in companies like Apple or Tesla.

    BTC does use a lot of energy to keep it secure, this isn't a problem with BTC but a problem with the enormou

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