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Earth United States

Cities Are Starting To Ban New Gas Stations (axios.com) 301

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
Petaluma, California, has voted to outlaw new gas stations, the first of what climate activists hope will be numerous cities and counties to do so. From a report: The movement aims to accelerate the shift to electric vehicles. "This is not a ban on the existing gas stations, which are providing all the gas currently needed," Matt Krogh, U.S. oil and gas campaign director for the environmental group Stand.earth, tells Axios. "The problem with allowing new gas stations is we don't really need them and they're putting existing gas stations out of business." In Petaluma -- where neighborhood opposition to a new Safeway gas station prompted years of litigation -- the council voted unanimously last week to move forward with a permanent ban on new stations; a final vote will happen Monday.

Existing stations won't be allowed to add new gas pumps, though they're encouraged to build electric charging bays. "The city of roughly 60,000 people is host to 16 operational gas stations, and city staff concluded there are multiple stations located within a 5-minute drive of every planned or existing residence within city limits," per the Santa Rosa Press Democrat. The city councilor who introduced the measure, D'Lynda Fischer, is quoted as saying: "The goal here is to move away from fossil fuels and to make it as easy as possible to do that."
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Cities Are Starting To Ban New Gas Stations More

Cities Are Starting To Ban New Gas Stations

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  • need to force an electric plug standard (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:11PM (#61112048)

    need to force an electric plug standard

    • Yeah I don't really agree with this ban even if there are enough gas stations, since some churn is needed to keep companies on their toes (i.e. keep profits in check).

      But I would like to see a major move on charging availability and setting standards is one thing the government could really help with. Tesla is doing its thing pretty well, but it's like AOL before the Internet.

      • The problem with government standards is that they're always way too slow to react to the technological requirements to update quickly.

        Didn't Tesla open-source and/or make a lot of their things patent-free? Isn't their power connector part of that?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Europe has done this with CCS, even Tesla have to use it. Problem is that Tesla charge points are still Tesla specific, taking up valuable space.

      • Europe has done this with CCS

        America has a few different standards. But that isn't a problem for me. I just keep a few adapters in my car so I can snap on whatever is needed. I've never seen a charging station that I can't use.

        Problem is that Tesla charge points are still Tesla specific

        Market leaders tend to resist standardization the most because it benefits them the least.

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
        Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • We have converters for that... But the real issue isn't gas stations but the business around it.

      Most electric car owners charge up at home, and will use a charging station only when they are going on long trips. This means there will less number of charging stations than gas stations. Perhaps 1 every 10 miles or so, and normally along more major road ways. Also the attached Quickie Mart that is common with them, will need to be expanded to a larger sit down, place often with extra activities as customer

      • We have converters for that... But the real issue isn't gas stations but the business around it.

        Most electric car owners charge up at home, and will use a charging station only when they are going on long trips.

        I can charge at home, but people in an apartment with no fixed parking probably can't

        • I can charge at home, but people in an apartment with no fixed parking probably can't

          They can in California. Apartment owners are required by law to allow EV owners to install chargers.

      • Or maybe the owners of the charging stations can switch from the gas pumps + convenience store with toilets to a charging station + convenience store with toilets model.

        And surely there's something similar in other countries to what we've seen in Canada for over a decade if not two: a central gas station/convenience store with small fast food places built around them. Simply remove the fuel pumps and add charging stations to all the parkings, they're there already because of the fast food places.

    • need to force an electric plug standard

      There is one. Actually there's 3. I hope you're not proposing a 4th ;-)

  • The rationale is a lie (Score:5, Insightful)

    by magzteel ( 5013587 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:18PM (#61112114)
    The environmental guy said: "This is not a ban on the existing gas stations, which are providing all the gas currently needed" "The problem with allowing new gas stations is we don't really need them and they're putting existing gas stations out of business." This is just complete bullshit. If a new station isn't needed, it will be unprofitable and will close. If it puts existing gas stations out of business, it is neutral or even a net positive because the newer station may have newer equipment. All this does is grandfather older stations, protect them from competition, and prevent them from improving their service.

    • Re:The rationale is a lie (Score:5, Insightful)

      by BeerFartMoron ( 624900 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:26PM (#61112160)
      The new stations are loss leader stations tied to store loyalty (e.g., Safeway) or membership (e.g., Costco) programs. They sell gas at a loss, undercutting local stations, which already rely on their attached convenience stores for the vast majority of their profits.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        In future they will install chargers as loss leaders. Seems like a decent way to encourage that, because chargers don't need special handling or licences like gas stations do it means everyone can compete, not just the big stores.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ArchieBunker ( 132337 )

      You're forgetting that gas stations make almost no profit on gasoline. When was the last time you saw a place that only sold gas and didn't masquerade as a fast food restaurant?

      • Cardlock stations like Pacific Pride do exactly this. All they do is have a place where one pulls over, uses pumps, then gets back on the road.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AvitarX ( 172628 )

        There's a lot of gas only stations in NJ since you're not allowed to pump your gas, often people don't get out of the car.

    • Re:The rationale is a lie (Score:5, Insightful)

      by alvinrod ( 889928 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:32PM (#61112202)
      It doesn't protect them any further than the city limits. If people want more or better gas stations they'll ultimately end up getting built. If I had to guess it's really about protecting a local gas oligopoly that's engaged in price fixing and gives a few kickbacks to the city council. The size of the city is about right for that to have developed and I've seen it happen before. A big enough town with gas prices 10% higher than anywhere else in the area for no reason and absolutely no deviation from that price by anyone in city limits.

      • It doesn't protect them any further than the city limits. If people want more or better gas stations they'll ultimately end up getting built. If I had to guess it's really about protecting a local gas oligopoly that's engaged in price fixing and gives a few kickbacks to the city council. The size of the city is about right for that to have developed and I've seen it happen before. A big enough town with gas prices 10% higher than anywhere else in the area for no reason and absolutely no deviation from that price by anyone in city limits.

        I tend to agree with you. It sounds environmental but it really just protects the existing stations in a town that is only 14 square miles. Anybody could just drive to a neighboring town to get gas.

      • For a state most known for rolling blackouts, I would think demand for diesel and gasoline will never completely end in order to power generators to keep vital services like freezers and fridges from spoiling food, or perhaps power a window unit or dehumidifier so at least 1 room is comfortable during the blackout.
    • This is not the first time a clearly corporate interest has co-opted a social movement. In MA, about 15 years ago or so, there was a ballot proposal to allow wine and beer sales in grocery stores. It's restricted in a convoluted manner in this state. The local mom/pop booze sellers banded together and ran ads claiming that police were in favor of preventing people from buying beer at grocery stores to prevent drunken driving accidents..."you're not FOR drunk driving, are you?"

      It was pure bullshit, but

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      What was said was that other stations will go out of business. Walmart is not going to build and then just give up. The will put prove pressure on the station across the street until it goes away, leaving an abandoned lot that will be expensive to redevelop. The downside to consumers is they may not get the lowest price supported by the market.

      Even without this pressure, I have three abandoned gas station in my 20 minute commute home. There is nothing there. It is a problem.

    • Re:The rationale is a lie (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Ichijo ( 607641 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @03:07PM (#61112430) Journal

      All this does is grandfather older stations, protect them from competition, and prevent them from improving their service.

      For that reason, it ought to be "cap and trade" of gas stations rather than a ban on new ones. So if you want to build a new gas station, you have to buy the rights from an old one.

    • If it puts existing gas stations out of business, it is neutral or even a net positive because the newer station may have newer equipment.

      These politicians are smarter than you think. Underground fuel tanks have a lifespan, usually with an upper limit of 40 years, assuming no corrosion or other issues. If you build a new service station then it has a brand new fuel tank, and it it will easily last past 2050 (I think the latest fuel tanks are some kind of composite that have even longer lifespans). Thus an existing station will have less lifespan left for its tanks than a new one - and that could be a significant difference if those tanks w

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by hey! ( 33014 )

      I wouldn't call it a "lie"; I'd call it a weak argument. The counter-argument is weak too; if a new gas station puts an old gas station out of business, that doesn't necessarily mean it serves any meaningful need that wasn't being met before. Even if you argue that *by definition* a business that displaces another business meets a need, need is only half the equation; the other is costs -- particularly *externalized* cost like traffic or creating an abandoned brown field. It all depends on circumstances

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by cusco ( 717999 )

      The newer stations, like the Safeway one mentioned or the ones at Costco and Walmart, are getting their supply at a bulk discount not available to the small business that own one or half a dozen stations. That's how they drive existing stations out of business.

    • Based on that logic, no city should have any ordinances that goes against laissez faire capitalism. Companies should be free to do whatever they want.

    • This is just complete bullshit. If a new station isn't needed, it will be unprofitable and will close.

      If a new station isn't needed, some gas station will be unprofitable and close. It won't necessarily be the new one.

      Closed gas stations frequently have hefty environmental cleanup costs. Leaks and waste from the underground tanks, spilled gas and oil on the surface, and so on. Heck, digging up the tanks and filling in the space that used to be tank is surprisingly costly.

      When the gas station goes out of business, the small corporation that actually owns the station declares bankruptcy and walks away, lea

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by crow ( 16139 )

        Exactly!

        The big deal is that gas stations require massive cleanup when they close. At least in some states there is a state fund for this (a small portion of the gas tax goes into the fund), but any large pool of money is tempting for the politicians wanting to find ways to fund their pet projects, so I really doubt any state is fully prepared for large numbers of gas stations to shut down.

  • Petaluma, California, has voted to outlaw new gas stations, the first of what climate activists hope will be numerous cities and counties to do so.

    One city M'Smash. Singular. One. Not "cities".

  • I can totally this at shopping centers, grocery stores, etc., but I can't think of any gas station I would want to sit around and wait for a vehicle to charge. Gas stations honestly tend to attract scummy people, and I don't want to sit around the parking lot for 30 minutes.
    • I picture getting to the shopping center you want to shop at and having all the chargers full, 80% of the time.

      • I picture getting to the shopping center you want to shop at and having all the chargers full, 80% of the time.

        The obvious solution to that problem is for the shopping center to install more chargers.

        The wrong solution is to convert gas stations into electric charging stations. That makes no sense.

      • Worse, if the pattern holds, those charging stations will be blockaded by the "coal rolling" mob who think that electric cars are a communist plot by "libtards" to make the baby jesus cry. And good luck getting the cops to come to cite and tow/impound the non-electrics.

        https://www.businessinsider.co... [businessinsider.com]

    • Some worse than others for sure. There is one exist about 4hr south of me I make sure to not need to stop anywhere around that exit. You know there is a problem when theres a permanently installed SHARPS container next to the urinals. Usage needs to be what, 50-75% to warrant a measure like that?
      • What a bizarre comparison. I don't depend on a sharps container to get home.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by e3m4n ( 947977 )
          opiate use is off the charts if they have to permanently install bins in the urinals to dispose of needles. If you have to wait 30min around an environment like that you will likely be approached by some very desperate people going through a very addictive withdraw. When you stop during a trip to refuel on gas and you get the slightest hint of a problem like this (such as needles on the ground, bums circling harassing the patrons, etc) you go somewhere else, or if that is not an option you pay at the pump a

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by yarbo ( 626329 )

        Used needles are dangerous and sharps containers are cheap compared to dealing with a used needle stick.

        If 2 people a day needed it, it's probably worth it.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by e3m4n ( 947977 )
          i dont disagree, but if you have so many used needles you felt the need to install one of those.. If you stopped at a gas station and 75% of the people were covered with smallpox, would you risk it? Or would you get the hell out of the area? I would not want to hang out for 30min while every junkie came over asking for money to get their next fix, or risk a violent encounter where I had to put down a junkie because his addiction was so bad he decided to use force to take something from me or my family. Ple

    • This model of "charge at the pump" appears constantly in media writing about electric vehicles, and demonstrate the writer doesn't have one.

      When you actually have an EV, you just plug it in at night at home. It's full every morning. You don't go somewhere to fill up occasionally, because you don't need to.

      "But what about apartments or street parking!?!?!?!!?"

      Not hard to add a 120V outlet to a few parking spaces, and if EVs take off as expected they'll be installed. There was a time apartments didn't have

  • But this sounds like a terrible way to address it.

    EVs have a chicken/egg problem with respect to charging stations, so I'm fairly supportive of subsidies to create new charging stations.

    But banning/capping existing gas stations? You're just screwing up the gas market for no good reason. Not to mention creating a recipe for corruption when the wealthy new suburb rightfully complains that they deserve a gas station and then city council decides to give someone a "special exception" to build a gas station to s

    • While cars is the largest consumer of gas/diesel, it isnt the only consumer. There are plenty of small engine landscaping tools that need gas. There are also backup generators of all sizes, portable and non portable. To try to sell this as some sort of environmental win shows just how narrow of a viewfinder they use on the world around them.

    • EVs already have charging stations. Every house and apartment in the country is already electrified.

      Yes, an apartment complex may need to add a plug to their parking spaces, but that's one of the most trivial electrical modifications they could do. And slapping a card reader on that plug isn't very hard either, which easily finances the tiny installation cost.

      Not to mention creating a recipe for corruption when the wealthy new suburb rightfully complains that they deserve a gas station and then city council decides to give someone a "special exception" to build a gas station to service them.

      You appear to have a European or "East Coast" concept of a city. This is California. Cities are geographically tiny. For example, what most peopl

    • But banning/capping existing gas stations?

      Capping new stations when 100% of existing needs are met is not going to upset the fuel market. If anything it'll stop creating hazardous facilities near people's homes.

  • What? (Score:5, Funny)

    by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:29PM (#61112182)
    How the hell do Californians power their snowblowers??

  • Exactly the wrong thign to do. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:29PM (#61112184) Homepage

    Should instead be requiring all new gas stations to have at least one electric charging station per gas pump.

    Instead of trying to prevent the undesired activity, you promote the desired one.

    Or simply put in/raise the gasoline tax.

    • This isnâ(TM)t about protecting the environment thatâ(TM)s just an excuse. If it was about the environment they would be working on expanding EV charging and thatâ(TM)s not what theyâ(TM)re doing.

    • Re:Exactly the wrong thign to do. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Junta ( 36770 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:54PM (#61112360)

      Gas station approach is terrible for EV.

      Gas station is designed for being there as long as it takes to pump a few dozen gallons of liquid. Gas stations have to be carefully planned and appropriately isolated from other concerns due to the risks of that much gasoline having to be stored and transported.

      EV charging takes much longer, and you need *something* to do other than babysit the charging. On the flip side, it's relatively easier to slip charging capacity into parking for things like theaters, restaurants, malls, retail stores, hotels, office buildings, homes, etc, compared to a gas pump.

      So hotels and restaurants would be the primary place to charge your car long run for road trips, and your home for commuting. For those in apartments, this will start to be an amenity that the apartment manager has to deal with to stay competitive.

      If I'm being tin-hat, this move is more about protecting existing stations. If I'm being more trusting, then they don't want to be blighted by dead gas stations in a couple of decades as a number of them wind down to meet the reduced demand that we (hopefully) will see.

      • Gas station is designed for being there as long as it takes to pump a few dozen gallons of liquid.

        [pedantic mode on]

        "a few" - 3 or more
        "a few dozen" - 36

        Unless they are driving a large pickup, AND running it below 5% capacity before refuelling, nobody's pumping a few dozen gallons into a passenger vehicle.

    • Theres still small engines and generators that use this fuel. None of them pose a serious threat to climate. The amount of fuel even a single lawnmower of a 1/2 acre lot with a 2000sq ft house on it consumes in a season is at most 3 gallons. Thats weekly mowings. I have to put fuel stabilizer in my 3gal container because it lasts through the winter. My 2stroke string trimmer takes 2 years to go through its gallon container. I have to drain the gas out of my powerwasher every fall to protect the engine becau

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

        I have a camping stove that burns white gas. A bottle typically lasts a whole season. I would rather not drive an hour to buy one. Fortunately, they're available at hardware stores and outdoor stores pretty much everywhere.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by e3m4n ( 947977 )
          propane? I bought an adapter on amazon to refill them from the bigger 20lb propane tanks you use for bbq grills. The trick is putting the empty in the freezer about 30min before filling it up, and use forceps on the little relief valve so you can get the full 1lb charge, otherwise it only fills about half way. I tell you this so you dont have to shell out $10 all the time on what costs about $2 in propane. The WeberQ works great for a camping stove btw.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by DanDD ( 1857066 )

        You can't get a gallon of gas without burning many gallons of fuel in shipping, energy in refining, fueling a navy, air force, dropping a few bombs, and greasing palms of one cartel or another. None of that is good for anything. So powering a single lawn mower contributes significantly to the problem.

        Electric lawn mowers are a thing, and they work very well. Same with trimmers. 2-stroke engines are incredibly inefficient. Try an electric trimmer, your ears will thank you. An electric vehicle should po

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Should instead be requiring all new gas stations to have at least one electric charging station per gas pump.

      Considering all existing fuel needs are being met I think they are promoting a desired activity by not building ever more.

  • Where will I get gas to power my generator during the next blackout? California I think may have a similar problem with wildfire blackouts.

  • It sounds like... (Score:3)

    by istartedi ( 132515 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @02:44PM (#61112290) Journal

    It sounds like owners of existing gas stations know how to lobby. "Hey look, a greenwashed bill that kills any potential competition".

  • This will be a big subsidy to existing gas stations. We already have prices nearing $4/gallon here in North California, and this will only make the issue worse in the future.

    Do not get me wrong, I drive electric for daily commute. However SUV still takes the day for longer trips. Unless they can somehow make Tesla as cheap as a Honda, and make the electric grid reliable (i.e.: do not go offline for days for no reason), we will have gas vehicles.

    And existing gas station owners can increase the prices while t

    • Petaluma isn't particularly large nor isolated. The existing stations already directly compete with stations in the adjoining cities.

  • If the city grows outward, at a certain point, it's going to take far more gas to get to a gas station than makes sense. So they'll be encouraging more gas use. Not everyone is going to have an electric car.

    • Geography already took care of that. Hard for a city to expand into mountains. At least, at the sort of density where someone would add a gas station.

  • Why stop at gas stations? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by msauve ( 701917 ) on Monday March 01, 2021 @03:15PM (#61112460)
    There are enough Starbucks, too. And McDonalds. And auto dealers, and churches, and hardware stores, and tattoo parlors, and grocery stores, and restaurants, and bars.

  • They're not making anything *easier* - they're making it more difficult to get gasoline.

    "The problem with allowing new gas stations is we don't really need them and they're putting existing gas stations out of business."

    Until you do need them. Lefties have problems understanding that top-down control of an economy never works. Ever. In history.

    The market will get rid of gas stations as electric cars become more popular. And there's no reason to add charging ports at the gas station. Nobody is going to

  • First, Petaluma [goo.gl] is a small, gentrified city North of San Francisco. The vast majority of residents are not going to be working in Petaluma, so getting to another city's gas stations is not at all a problem.

    Second, gas stations tend to require a ton of environmental cleanup when they close down, which is often left to the city. The small corporation that owns the gas station declares bankruptcy as they go out of business, and now the city's on the hook to clean up the waste from the underground tanks, spilled gas & oil, and so on.

    This story is the city betting that gas stations will decline and shut down as EVs become popular, and the city doesn't want to be left with more cleanup costs. Their residents aren't going to be particularly harmed if this bet goes bad, because the city is small enough that getting to other gas stations isn't an issue. Plus the residents are commuting to other, larger cities and will pass dozens of gas stations outside of Petaluma every day.

  • The problem with allowing new gas stations is we don't really need them and they're putting existing gas stations out of business.

    Why would a company want to open a new gas station and close the existing one? Oh, right, the old one is not as profitable or may need major repairs like new in-ground tanks. Maybe they want to add a convenience store and it is more cost effective to build the new station and close the old one rather than expand the old one.

  • My conclusion is that there are one or more existing gas station owners in the city council.

    A gas station is a very simple thing - it is really just a liquids vending machine - so pivoting to a new form of energy is not hard at all and it will happen without new regulation, as soon as there is real demand.

  • The fact is, when truly practical, viable, and affordable alternative energy vehicles gain traction, the market will force ICE cars off the road. But alternative energy solutions are still in flux. And not only that, telling people they must use electric vehicles means that companies won't see the economic value of trying to find other possible avenues of powering vehicles. By mandating how people can power their vehicles, it is like a business not only telling a software team what they need, but how to bu

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