The Department of Homeland Security Needs Its Own Edward Snowden 190
blottsie writes: Out of all the U.S. government agencies, the Department of Homeland Security is one of the least transparent. As such, the number of Freedom of Information Act requests it receives have doubled since 2008. But the DHS has only become more adamant about blocking FOIA requests over the years. The problem has become so severe that nothing short of an Edward Snowden-style leak may be needed to increase transparency at the DHS.
i bet (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sure there are hundreds of people who are dying to be criminalized without due process and live in Russia just to be an American patriot.
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Hundreds is a small number, I am sure there are hundreds willing and capable of doing this. Hundreds work for the DHS, probably not, but you only one of them working and having access in the DHS
Re:i bet (Score:4, Funny)
Why do they need to dig through all those people? I hear Edward Snowden himself has concluded his most recent assignment at the NSA, and has government experience and a security clearance to boot. My information may be a little out of date, though.
Re:i bet (Score:5, Insightful)
There's just something funny about the idea that our civilian population needs to create an informal spy agency to help it spy on its own government - that's essentially what we're proposing here.
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My gramps told me about that, wasn't it associated with some weird diary-keeping movement called "journalism", or something?
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There's just something funny about the idea that our civilian population needs to create an informal spy agency to help it spy on its own government - that's essentially what we're proposing here.
Let me make this perfectly clear. There is not a single fucking thing about that proposition that is funny whatsoever.
Those who died for our freedoms we're losing aren't laughing.
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I believe the parent meant it was "funny" in the same sense that sour milk tastes "funny".
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They are not failing.
Failing would imply they're trying.
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Frank Herbert wrote in a few of his sf novels about a Bureau of Sabotage that did essentially that, gumming up the efforts of other government agencies
Hold it, don't we have that ? I am fairly certain is congress's job to gum up the entire society.
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Pretty sure they give billions to trillions of dollars to make sure some government agencies work well.
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Sounds more like incitement to sedition to me!
Re:i bet (Score:4, Insightful)
To "pull a Snowden" someone would first of all have to have some guts, conscience and a deep love for the values the United States of America once stood for.
Where in the DHS would you find someone like that?
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I'm sure there are hundreds of people who are dying to be criminalized without due process and live in Russia just to be an American patriot.
There are thousands who are willing to give their lives for 'the American way of life' so yes, there might be more than you would think willing to sacrifice to protect Americans from their own government.
At least, we can hope.
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UN Investigator: We heard this man wasn't given due process.
Warlord: Nonsense! He was duly tried by me and sentenced to death.
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Snowden, if he just stayed in America, would in all likelihood not have received a fair and impartial trial. Though this is ultimately hypothetical (since he has not submitted himself for arrest), let's set all political bullshitting aside and take an honest assessment of the truth.
His revelations were extremely embarrassing to the most powerful institutions, and the most powerful people, in the American government. He has turned popular American sentiment hostile to the greater part of governance. What
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I guess she could run to Abu Dhabi instead.
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By that definition the US founding fathers would be terrorists, I get it?
Not judging, just trying to keep up with the lingo du jour.
Sounds like Sci-Fi (Score:2)
Just sayin' [sfbay-anarchists.org]
Or, and just hear me out... (Score:2, Interesting)
Or, they could become less obstinate in blocking FOIA requests.
The thermonuclear option isn't always a good idea.
Re:Or, and just hear me out... (Score:5, Funny)
Or, they could become less obstinate in blocking FOIA requests.
Why not have a herd of magical pink unicorns travel to DC and explain the problem to them. That seems like a more likely solution.
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You think Snowden 2.0 is more likely than a judge forcing them to respond to FOIA requests?
To each their own, I suppose.
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> You think Snowden 2.0 is more likely than a judge forcing them to respond to FOIA requests?
Yes, I do. The NSA has been ignoring FOIA for decades, what would possibly make the top-heavy bureaucracy at the TSA more responsive?
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You think Snowden 2.0 is more likely than a judge forcing them to respond to FOIA requests?
Depends. Does the judge in question have an army on hand to enforce that ruling?
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Will any judge be allowed to?
Or will it only go through the FISA courts, where there's even less transparency. And always ruled against.
To each their own, delusion has its grandeur.
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Well, that, or if that fails... what was that thermonuclear option again? It sounds like it could solve things. Or dissolve, at least.
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Righteous anger isn't always as Righteous or helpful as you'd originally thought. That's why we have a constitution, bill of rights, etc... To protect us from the whims of an angry fickle public when short term popular opinion may not be in the best interest of the long term health of the country. Amending the constitution takes a long time for a reason. DHS and other 3 letter agencies can only use 9/11 to subjugate us for so long... eventually the fear will fade, and get replaced outrage. History will not
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I wish you were right, but suspect you are wrong. The 2nd amendment was essentially abandoned after the Whiskey rebellion highlighted the ineffectiveness of the militias, and the British burning DC to the ground finished it off. They never bothered to repeal it.
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They never bothered to repeal it.
Meaning it has never been abandoned.
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Tell that to the framers, who feared a large standing army and thus wrote the 2nd amendment. We currently have the most impressive standing army that the world has ever known.
Dismantle DHS (Score:5, Insightful)
I still don't get why we still have this elaborate subsidy for a bunch of glorified mall cops.
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That's the TSA, not the DHS.
That said, I don't know why the DHS exists either, who the fuck thinks of America as the "Homeland" ?
That seems like some idea out of a fascist nationalism.
Couldn't they come up with a better name?
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So ... we appease them by eliminating our freedoms?
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When you have an Empire, you must distinguish the "Homeland" from the "Colonies".
Re:Dismantle DHS (Score:5, Insightful)
Created under GWB, and the left hated it, extended under BHO, and the left goes silent. I'm trying to figure out at what point does principle gets put aside for politics?
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Re: Dismantle DHS (Score:2)
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As long as politicians explode, who would argue against it?
Just how do you add principle to congress?
Re: Dismantle DHS (Score:2)
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Created under GWB, and the left hated it, extended under BHO, and the left goes silent. I'm trying to figure out at what point does principle gets put aside for politics?
You don't have any Left to speak of, there's Right and Even-More-Right.
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Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
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1st. Left? What left?
2nd. Created under right and the left hated it, extended under left and the right hated it.
So you still think you have some say in this?
Only a fool will think that if you do the same thing over and over again, you will get a different result.
Voting R one time and D the next time and then R again and back to D is not doing things differently. Building a guilotine and off with their heads if they do not perform as promissed is doing things differently.
Have to wonder how many supporters of anyone other than R and D are going to be on this watchlist.
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I'm trying to figure out at what point does principle gets put aside for politics?
When it gets you elected. Because in that case, those who don't put principle aside for politics, don't get elected.
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Created under GWB, and the left hated it, extended under BHO, and the left goes silent. I'm trying to figure out at what point does principle gets put aside for politics?
More like you're just deaf.
I'm left of center and I was for Obama but the only thing I can say for him over Bush is that he's not literally stupid.
There is no more left and right in American politics.
Re:Dismantle DHS (Score:5, Interesting)
Why is the reality distortion field so strong that hating the tyrannical government, when a right-winger is in power, gets you branded a "leftist"? When a leftist is in power, you're branded a "right-winger"? I hated the DHS under Bush and I think his administration was an abomination. I hate the DHS under Obama and think his administration is an abomination. When I would say the former, 2002-2008, I was branded as partisan pinko commie leftist scum. When I say the latter 2008-present, I'm branded as a racist redneck partisan 1% loving corporatist scum.
It's really getting tiring. I can't vocalize that I disagree with anything this administration has done without hearing "Well, Bush started it! Where were you when Bush was running over our rights?" I was speaking out against it just like I am now, except back then, they called me you.
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Oh, how I wish I hadn't used my modpoints up earlier today!
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But certainly. How about Security Squad?
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That's the TSA, not the DHS.
I know the difference. I said "Subsidy for glorified mall cops."
The TSA is a subsidy for wannabe mall cops.
There is a difference (though not much of one).
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I know. (Score:5, Insightful)
I still don't get why we still have this elaborate subsidy for a bunch of glorified mall cops.
Because the American public is ill informed and they do not want to be better informed.
They watch the news and have "facts" spoon fed to them by people with their own agenda.
When a politician actually says, "Hold on here! We need to think about this police state crap!" they are labeled as being "soft on terror" and the public being incapable of having a thought that isn't planted there by the media, goes along. And people are totally afraid because of the irresponsible and incompetent media.
In the article, an AMERICAN of Libyan decent was held without cause by the border thugs. I assure you that many Americans have no problem with that because she is an Arab - who cares what the ramifications are on our society and freedoms. See, we the stupid people only want freedom for people like us. The others can rot in jail.
So, mix in unwarranted fear, bigotry and stupidity and we have the DHS.
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They watch the news and have "facts" spoon fed to them by people with their own agenda.
It's actually a little bit worse than that. We could all be spoon-fed "facts" saying the DHS is terrible, and we could all agree it should be dismantled. And then the DHS will politely go about its way while the rest of us do nothing. While we very much enjoy judgmentally shaking our heads at the terrible things that go on in this world, very few people are willing to do anything about it.
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Quite the opposite in fact. In my opinion when your government starts making lists of "the bad people" then I think it is your moral duty to make sure you are one of the people on the list. From the recent NSA leaks (this one may not actually be from Snowden, which is interesting) the NSA considers anyone who uses or runs Tor to be an extremist, so apparently I make the list twice; just glad to be doing my part. I also installed PGP and use encryption whenever possible, although that is rare because I on
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...and be sure to spread that malware that uses Tor for command and control. Even your elderly neighbour could be a terrorist! Add to the fact that she gives sweets to the kids that come around asking if they can get their ball back from her garden, and you've got a paedo-terrorist. They're the worst kind of all.
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If I have to subsidize the fuckers, have them put to something USEFUL. Like (re)building roads.
Yes, but more (Score:2, Insightful)
Every single government department that has power over other people needs a watchdog or oversight committee.
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Every single government department that has power over other people needs a watchdog or oversight committee.
It's called the judicial branch. Unfortunately, they suck at their jobs.
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Thats what we have Fox News for.
Likely to make them less transparent (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem has become so severe that nothing short of an Edward Snowden-style leak may be needed to increase transparency at the DHS.
Such a leak is just as likely to have exactly the opposite effect. The Snowden leak hasn't exactly made the NSA any more forthcoming regarding their activities. No, the ONLY thing that is going to force DHS to be more transparent in the long run is a motivated Congress. Oversight of the executive branch is after all their job. But since the Dems and Reps are so busy trying to grab power they can't be bothered. The judiciary is no help since they have their head stuck in the sand over standing [wikipedia.org] that they are worse than useless. So the executive branch can do whatever the hell they like without consequence until at least one of the other branches of government starts doing their damn job. All a leak is likely to do is show them what they need to do the be even less transparent than they already are.
People unclear on the concept (Score:5, Insightful)
Bob: So we just went ahead and fixed the glitch. (Score:5, Interesting)
The simple way to fix this is just shut the DHS down. It was a bureaucracy conceived in panic: poorly engineered and even more poorly implemented. Just shut it down. Turn all the records over to Congress and start over.
Simple reboot. Fix the glitch. Just like Milton's payroll issue.
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Fix the glitch. Just like Milton's payroll issue.
That didn't end well, iirc.
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Fix the glitch. Just like Milton's payroll issue.
That didn't end well, iirc.
He got his stapler back in the end.
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Institution of FUD (Score:2)
Homeland Security is an institution based in FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. The more they panic the populace the more Congress will capitulate and grant them ever increasing power and funding. Secrecy grants them a shield to deflect all criticism: in the event of an attack they can simply state they were underfunded or were not granted the powers they needed to protect the people regardless of whatever the truth may be and no one except initiated would be the wiser. Instead of confronting terrorism usin
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And Milton could set the building on fire before he leaves.
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Same cost, same corruption and same amount of taxpayer money being squandered, but at least you do NOT get anything for it instead of getting inconvenience and surveillance.
I'd say it's a step in the right direction.
Fat chance (Score:3)
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two words:
anonymous dropbox
Anyone dumb enough to try that under the expectation that the DHS wouldn't be watching for it would find themselves quickly on a one-way trip to Gitmo.
Amend FOIA (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem here is that we need Congress to amend the Freedom of Information Act. DHS can hide the way they do because they can claim a "national security" exemption to FOIA - one of the very few things (apart from ongoing criminal investigations and ongoing collective bargaining, among a handful of others) that can be used to block a FOIA request. The national security exemption also tends to be the most often abused, especially by police departments and other law enforcement agencies. A lot of the time, the agencies know they won't win when the people requesting the records appeal, but it's a handy way to stonewall records requests right out of the gate.
What should happen is that FOIA should be amended to make it clear when the national security exemption does and does not apply, so that it can't be used to hide behind anymore.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Coast Guard can't be under military command ... (Score:5, Informative)
U.S. Coast Guard there is no conceiveable reason this agency should not be under control of the pentagon ...
The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the U.S. armed forces from enforcing the law. That is why the National Guard is normally under the command of a State Governor and the Coast Guard is normally under the command of a civilian agency. When under such command they are not considered part of the U.S. armed forces and a Governor can have the state National Guard units enforce the law, for example during natural disasters, riots, etc. Similarly when under civilian command the Coast Guard can enforce maritime law, enforce safety regulations, arrest smugglers, etc.
Re:the evil they do is always front and center (Score:5, Interesting)
"U.S. Secret Service they guard the president and for some mind boggling reason, investigate counterfeit currency. "
No, they investigate counterfeit currency and for an accidental reason guard the president. At the time that Congress requested a protection detail for the President, the Secret Service was the largest law enforcement agency at the federal level. The FBI had not yet been created.
So, America *needs* traitors? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me get this straight; because this article is making my mind blow..... When Mr Snowden did what he did, the comments here on Slashdot both hailed him as hero and decried him as a traitor. This is still unresolved.
And now we're saying that we NEED to have a Snowden-style event to have any kind of transparency at DHS? So, Americans need to give up their Hawaiian gymnast girlfriends, go on the lam, be hunted by every three-letter agency, have to move to Russia, have a price put on their heads, and still be hated by 50% of America who'd want to thrown them in a deep dark hole for the rest of their lives without a trial..... All so *you* can have some nice "transparency" at the DHS?????
Sorry, but if that's what's required, PLEASE NOW ADMIT THAT AMERICA IS A FASCIST POLICE STATE, and that if the price of freedom is so high that most people aren't willing to give up everything for that freedom, we have become land of the sheep.
Also, if you feel that's what's required; do it yourself; or start a revolution to take your country back from the oligarchs that have made into a greedy-self-serving-piece-of-shit-excuse for a nation. Mr Snowdens are few and far between and you're lucky to have the ones you have.
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1914? Are you high?
Businesses are so intertwined internationally that it is virtually impossible to start a war with anyone without offending at least half the businesses in your country. And that's something no government on this planet can afford.
Homeland Security vs CDC (Score:5, Interesting)
You all remember the recent smallpox discovery at the NIH ... well it turns out they found quite a number of samples of various other things, and their disposition was somewhat odd: some of them went to the FDA, the CDC, or were destroyed, but a number of samples (they didn't say what) were sent to Homeland Security.
WTF?!
What possible business can H.S. have with vials of deadly diseases?
'The original smallpox samples, along with ten others that were unclearly labeled, were securely transferred to the CDC’s high-containment facility in Atlanta., the FDA said, and 32 other vials have already been destroyed. The remaining 279 were transferred to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security’s National Bioforensic Analysis Center “for safeguarding.”'
http://www.salon.com/2014/07/1... [salon.com]
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What possible business can H.S. have with vials of deadly diseases?
If there is a god, they wanted to take a good look inside whether the stuff is still in there.
We Don't Need Another Snowden (Score:2)
The entire federal government (Score:3, Insightful)
Needs about 350 million edward snowdens. Time to vote these criminals out people! Democrats and republicans both.
Every department needs one. (Score:2)
Most of the US states need one... most of the departments in those states need them... Many major and even minor cities need them.
Whistleblowing and leaking should become a core part of our democracy. Yes, government must keep some things secret... like your identity info so assholes aren't stealing your ID every two seconds to rob you. Or national security secrets like the plans to the latest hydrogen bomb. By all means keep those secrets.
But pretty much everything that doesn't need to be kept secret... sh
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I didn't leave him anywhere. What do you want me to do? I've gotten into literal screaming matches with people over this issue and was able to turn most of my family around 180 degrees.
beyond that, what do you expect me to do? Protest day after day in front of some federal building? I've got bills to pay. I can't do that. What about sending letters to politicians? Already done.
What else? Want me to go all 80s action movie on the issue and sneak into russia to smuggle him out?
Get real.
The US on so many issue
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We're well past that... we're in perhaps ballot or jury territory at this point.
Soap box stage ends when you've said everything you've needed to say... it was heard... and nothing changed.
That already happened.
I won't up arms against this government though. Its not worth it. I'll just leave. Let the morons eat each other alive in a foaming cesspit of stupidity for all I care.
here is where someone says "cya" or similar... to which I can only reply "same to you."
No Information (Score:2)
Since DHS doesn't deal with actual information, it is reasonable that they do not respond to Freedom of Information requests.
For all we know, there's been a few. (Score:3)
Likely they were discovered earlier than Snowden and became the subject of an extrajudicial execution, much as some have clamored to have done to Snowden.
Re:Just to clarify (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like you think that secrecy which is used to commit outright crimes in your name, is needed.
Here's an idea. I'm going to punch you square in the face. Then I'm going to make it illegal to tell anyone about it, because it would harm my reputation and my professional job is to be the head of a big governmental agency.
But if that agency knew I punched you square in the face, I'd get publicly in trouble, which would make my agency look bad, which would cut their funding, which would mean they cannot protect people as well, thus my punching you in the face will be kept secret in the name of national security.
Forget the fact I'm not supposed to be punching you in the first place...... what matters is now that I *have* punched you in the face, we need to all keep super secret about it or else my agency would look bad.
That is the secrecy you protect so vigorously.
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You mean someone willing to publish virtually every aspect of how we protect ourselves from terrorism without any independent review, oversight or responsibility?
Hopefully the great mass of irony in your statement squished your brain as it rolled out of your mouth.
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If history tells us anything, then that a single man who does things unsupervised can do a lot less harm than a whole governmental organization who does things unsupervised.
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If daddy Stalin taught us anything then all that's needed is a firing squad. Or, if you have the bunch all rounded up in a building, just enough TNT to level it.
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Dude, you have to learn how to read slogans. "Yes we can" means "We CAN, but we DON'T". And Hope and change means that you may hope for change. If you so please. It's a free country after all.
Seriously. Did anyone really expect anything just 'cause the guy is from the other end of The Party?
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Hate to pull the Godwin here, but it fits.
People during WW2 who dared to help those that were prosecuted for no other crime than being who they are were living in constant danger. Not just of being arrested or inconvenienced, but of being killed. Along with their family. Still, people did just that. By far not many, but surprisingly many. They sure as hell could not hope for fame and glory (especially during the first years when it sure looked like Germany would win that war), actually all they could expect
Re:Are you fucking kidding? (Score:5, Insightful)
Years ago I asked my uncle, who was a teenager during WW2, if he knew of people in our village that had hidden refugees during the war. As you mentioned, this was a very dangerous thing to do. He had to think long and hard, but managed to remember two or three families. Next I asked him if he knew about young men who had gone to fight on the German side. He immediately named about a dozen, but added that most did so because the pay was good and some simply went because they would get enough decent food to eat. At that moment I had the sad realization that those who would oppress us if they could, are living quietly among us. They live in every street, everywhere. As soon as an opportunity like WW2 arises, they will jump in and become the oppressors. But heroes are a lot harder to find.
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But heroes are a lot harder to find.
True heroes don't brag about it
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Especially when bragging gets you sent to a concentration camp, any of the illegal prison camps in Afghanistan right now, or political asylum in Russia.
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Guess someone took hook, line and sinker the spin that the US population doesn't support what Snowden did...