The Pope Praises Medical Workers, Criticizes 'Personal Freedom' Protests (nytimes.com) 196
More Americans travelled Wednesday than on any other day in the last eight months — 1.1 million Americans — continuing the country's long-standing annual tradition of gathering to give thanks.
The same week the Pope apparently felt compelled to publish an opinion piece in one of the country's largest newspapers to share his own thoughts about the pandemic.
First, the Pope remembered life-saving medical procedures he'd had when he was 20 — including a wise nurse who'd doubled a dosage recommended by a doctor "because she knew from experience I was dying... Because of her regular contact with sick people, she understood better than the doctor what they needed, and she had the courage to act on her knowledge." And he also remembers another nurse who'd prescribed him extra painkillers for intense pain. "They taught me what it is to use science but also to know when to go beyond it to meet particular needs. And the serious illness I lived through taught me to depend on the goodness and wisdom of others. This theme of helping others has stayed with me these past months."
Then he points out the great sacrifices made during the pandemic by doctors, nurses, and caregivers: Whether or not they were conscious of it, their choice testified to a belief: that it is better to live a shorter life serving others than a longer one resisting that call. That's why, in many countries, people stood at their windows or on their doorsteps to applaud them in gratitude and awe. They are the saints next door, who have awakened something important in our hearts, making credible once more what we desire to instill by our preaching. They are the antibodies to the virus of indifference...
He contrasts this with groups opposing government measures protecting the public health: [S]ome groups protested, refusing to keep their distance, marching against travel restrictions — as if measures that governments must impose for the good of their people constitute some kind of political assault on autonomy or personal freedom! Looking to the common good is much more than the sum of what is good for individuals. It means having a regard for all citizens and seeking to respond effectively to the needs of the least fortunate. It is all too easy for some to take an idea — in this case, for example, personal freedom — and turn it into an ideology, creating a prism through which they judge everything...
Our fears are exacerbated and exploited by a certain kind of populist politics that seeks power over society. It is hard to build a culture of encounter, in which we meet as people with a shared dignity, within a throwaway culture that regards the well-being of the elderly, the unemployed, the disabled and the unborn as peripheral to our own well-being.
To come out of this crisis better, we have to recover the knowledge that as a people we have a shared destination. The pandemic has reminded us that no one is saved alone. What ties us to one another is what we commonly call solidarity. Solidarity is more than acts of generosity, important as they are; it is the call to embrace the reality that we are bound by bonds of reciprocity. On this solid foundation we can build a better, different, human future.
The same week the Pope apparently felt compelled to publish an opinion piece in one of the country's largest newspapers to share his own thoughts about the pandemic.
First, the Pope remembered life-saving medical procedures he'd had when he was 20 — including a wise nurse who'd doubled a dosage recommended by a doctor "because she knew from experience I was dying... Because of her regular contact with sick people, she understood better than the doctor what they needed, and she had the courage to act on her knowledge." And he also remembers another nurse who'd prescribed him extra painkillers for intense pain. "They taught me what it is to use science but also to know when to go beyond it to meet particular needs. And the serious illness I lived through taught me to depend on the goodness and wisdom of others. This theme of helping others has stayed with me these past months."
Then he points out the great sacrifices made during the pandemic by doctors, nurses, and caregivers: Whether or not they were conscious of it, their choice testified to a belief: that it is better to live a shorter life serving others than a longer one resisting that call. That's why, in many countries, people stood at their windows or on their doorsteps to applaud them in gratitude and awe. They are the saints next door, who have awakened something important in our hearts, making credible once more what we desire to instill by our preaching. They are the antibodies to the virus of indifference...
He contrasts this with groups opposing government measures protecting the public health: [S]ome groups protested, refusing to keep their distance, marching against travel restrictions — as if measures that governments must impose for the good of their people constitute some kind of political assault on autonomy or personal freedom! Looking to the common good is much more than the sum of what is good for individuals. It means having a regard for all citizens and seeking to respond effectively to the needs of the least fortunate. It is all too easy for some to take an idea — in this case, for example, personal freedom — and turn it into an ideology, creating a prism through which they judge everything...
Our fears are exacerbated and exploited by a certain kind of populist politics that seeks power over society. It is hard to build a culture of encounter, in which we meet as people with a shared dignity, within a throwaway culture that regards the well-being of the elderly, the unemployed, the disabled and the unborn as peripheral to our own well-being.
To come out of this crisis better, we have to recover the knowledge that as a people we have a shared destination. The pandemic has reminded us that no one is saved alone. What ties us to one another is what we commonly call solidarity. Solidarity is more than acts of generosity, important as they are; it is the call to embrace the reality that we are bound by bonds of reciprocity. On this solid foundation we can build a better, different, human future.
I am *not* a fan of religion, but he's right. (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not a fan of religion, and certainly not of the Catholic Church. However, he's right. The last paragraph of the quote is spot-on and is completely counter to current political culture.
To come out of this crisis better, we have to recover the knowledge that as a people we have a shared destination. The pandemic has reminded us that no one is saved alone. What ties us to one another is what we commonly call solidarity. Solidarity is more than acts of generosity, important as they are; it is the call to embrace the reality that we are bound by bonds of reciprocity. On this solid foundation we can build a better, different, human future.
Re: I am *not* a fan of religion, but he's right. (Score:2)
we have a shared destination
In this case, yes. But let's not break out the Kool-Aid just yet.
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What do you mean, the Kool-Aid? I was told we'd have a choice between three different flavours!
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I'm not joining unless Tang is an option.
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I was told we'd have a choice
Heretic! It's time for the Inquisition.
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Nah it's all purple. And it's going to be Wyler's rather than Kool-Aid.
Given the stances he's taken lately (Score:2)
Re:I am *not* a fan of religion, but he's right. (Score:5, Informative)
Fine, get COVID-19 if you want. But don't impose your plague on others, because that's infringing our freedom (and indeed, potentially our right to life.)
I have no problem with anti-maskers providing they remove themselves from society. The minute you want to take advantage of a civilized society, you have to start living by the rules.
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If your "level of risk" includes paying for the consequences if you infect someone else then ok.
I don't know how you are going to pay if someone dies because of you though. I guess that's would be a manslaughter so you may end up with some years in prison, but it won't bring the person back to life.
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The pandemic has reminded us that there are stupid people willing to surrender their freedoms at the drop of a pin. I will gladly take my chances of contracting a fucking cold rather than give up my freedoms.
First, it isn't a "fucking cold". Its more like having the worst flu you can imagine (everything aches like crazy), combined with the worst pneumonia you can imagine (you can't breath, you don't have the strength to even crawl). How do I know this? I have had Covid, the flu, many many colds, and pneumonia twice.
Second, the issue isn't about you contracting a "cold", it's about you contracting a "cold" and then giving it to someone else (and it's not a cold, it a disease that can kill). If it were just ab
Re:I am *not* a fan of religion, but he's right. (Score:4)
Rather, the pandemic has reminded us there are stupid people who don't give a fuck about anyone else but themselves. It matters not a bit to them if they become a spreader and wipe out someone's kid, or mother, or grandfather. As long as they have their precious freedom to be arrogant toerags, they're happy.
This just in... (Score:5, Insightful)
Leader of largest Christian denomination is more pro-science, pro-life, and anti-poverty than the vast, vast majority of secular jerks on the internet. Secular jerks, who have never actually done anything in their lives to help another person, on internet struggle to convince themselves why they are still morally superior. News at 9.
Nice asserted conclusion (Score:2)
It's calculated appeal to superstitionists ensured upvotes.
Re:This just in... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm thinking you missed the part that this Pope is very popular with the secularists... why, you ask... because like many secularists who are secularists BECAUSE they've seen what fake "christians" do to a religion when they turn it against other people like conservatives do.... he is finally embracing the teachings of Jesus, not a blind allegiance to the almighty dollar.
You cannot be Christian, and be conservative; those two ideologies are the exact opposites of each other.
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Re:This just in... (Score:4, Insightful)
Because you're the side being called out.
Re:This just in... (Score:5, Funny)
It was his post, lololol
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Perhaps you should apply some of that brain-fu to a text on statistics.
Anti-Science Intro; Authoritarian Message (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't RFTA and I'm going by the summary - so my comments below may not match the Pope's actual statement.
That's great that he had caring nurses that to save his life. But the nurse did it by trusting her gut and not following the doctor's orders, which I presume was based on the understanding of the disease along prescribed medications which would be calculated using various factors (age, weight, sex, etc.). So the nurse's behaviour was right, the doctor's science was wrong and she did not have to follow her superior's directives.
Then he says that people doing the same thing in terms of their response to the pandemic (rejection of masks, social distancing, etc. - basically following their gut - ) are wrong, the science is right and they should follow government's directives.
The two messages seem at odds with one another.
Re:Anti-Science Intro; Authoritarian Message (Score:5, Insightful)
It's more that the nurses understood the dosing needs better than the doctor did in this particular case. It's not like they swapped out the drug for pot instead because they read some blog on the internet.
Experience still counts for something in this world.
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It's more that the nurses understood the dosing needs better than the doctor did in this particular case. It's not like they swapped out the drug for pot instead because they read some blog on the internet.
Experience still counts for something in this world.
Instructions unclear, all cheetos within 2 nautical miles are gone, I forgot why I’m looking in the fridge, and for some reason the damn rash on my arm is getting worse.
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To be fair, when the pope was 20 medicine wasn't very scientific. Not like now, when it's moderately scientific.
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Nurses also have extensive medical training.
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The two messages seem at odds with one another.
Following their gut based on dealing with numerous sick people.
Following their gut based on never actually being in a pandemic before.
Hmm how are these things different...
I've decades of relevant practical experience.
I saw a YouTube video that showed up in my Facebook feed.
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Only to a clueless troll who cherry picks. In the face of such willful ignorance I can only offer this: The individual nurse and mass of scientists are both working forward from knowledge and experience. That the "doctors science was wrong" is a complete ass pull on your part.
Freedom is just another word for atheism (Score:3, Insightful)
The catholic church has always been against personal freedom. Why is this news?
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It's news because the leader of one of the largest religions in the world (which has historically been very anti-science) has come out and said that we need to follow the advice of scientists in order to get through the pandemic as quickly as possible.
It places the official doctrine of the Catholic Church firmly among other semi-progressive brands of Christianity.
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He's a Jesuit, they've been about science for a long time, coming up with things like the big bang where God started the whole thing that led to the evolution of man.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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Why is this news?
Because the people harping on about "muh freedoms" happen to overwhelmingly be on the side of thumping on Bibles, so it's refreshing to see someone with a different opinion from the usual religious right cesspool.
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As recently as Pope John Paul II, the Catholic Church at least moderately agitated for forms of government that featured personal and political freedom. John Paul II stood against totalitarian Communism.
This Pope seems to be attacking anti-maskers, believing them to be wound up with nationalist fascist movements. He wants you to do what you are told by your local government, even if you might question the efficacy of some of their regulations.
A response to the SCOTUS decision (Score:2, Interesting)
It's pretty clear why the pope is doing this, and that's to protect the church from being sued. The church's lawyers probably pointed out that even with the SCOTUS decision barring governments from putting restrictions on church attendance, they could still be sued if someone catches COVID and dies as a result of going to church.
This way, the church can say "We directed all of our priests to obey the law, and if any of them were opening their churches it was specifically against our orders."
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So it seems the Pope is more progressive than the US Supreme Court.
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You don't even understand the meaning of the word, obviously.
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Yeah. That's precisely what happened. Yesterday SCOTUS made a decision and within 24 hours the Pope wrote *an entire 160 book* to cover himself. He is truly powered by God.
Let me guess, you didn't bother reading TFA.
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Just as a disclaimer, I'm an active Catholic. So you can decide to ignore what's to follow if you like. I lean left politically, and I would describe myself as a "moderate" Catholic, somewhere in the middle theologically. We go to Mass every Sunday. The church we attend has a lot of measures in place to prevent spread, it is frankly safer than my school (I'm a teacher). Even reception of Communion is pretty safe, with everyone cleaning hands before and after. This only works because the building is bi
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The church's lawyers probably pointed out that even with the SCOTUS decision barring governments from putting restrictions on church attendance
The SCOTUS decision doesn't bar governments from putting restrictions on church attendance.
The churches/synagogues involved in the SCOTUS suit are still under restrictions, just not the draconian ones. They are currently limited to 50% capacity in the "yellow zone", and "shall adhere to Department of Health guidance" - which I take to mean following mask/social distancing/disinfection/etc. protocols.
better to modify requirements (Score:3)
1) require that the business have FULL insurance on all employees. THat means health, short term unemployment and life.
2) require that the owners/Executives (along with family members that were working there BEFORE covid) be on-site and working with customers.
3) require that the owners/Executives to agree that they are turning down ALL MEDICAL ASSISTANCE while they are running against the law/advisement/etc.
Far too many business ppl want all of the advantages, but never the responsibility.
They have a responsibility to take care of the employees if they get sick.
They have a responsibility to put themselves in as much danger as they put their employees.
And finally, they do NOT have the right to go and KNOWINGLY expose themselves and then run around and expose medical workers.
I think that with these simple modifications, businesses should then not be shut down if they adhear to these rules.
Disagree completely (Score:2)
A person's freedom matters more than another person's well being. Zero question about this.
Meanwhile, churches organize superspreading events (Score:2)
Can't see the christians liking this. (Score:2)
50% of US Christians: Damn him, the commie!
Other 50% of US Christians: Who?
Easy for him to say (Score:3)
Maybe the pope should start by telling governments not to be scared of the religious nuts and just tell them to wear the mask too?
If you want your personal freedom (Score:2)
That's fine... just sign a Do Not Resuscitate in case you get infected first.
Re:Wide words from a cult leader (Score:5, Funny)
He's a Jesuit. they're used to thinking "six impossible things before breakfast". Going drinking with Jesuits is a treat in philosophy, logic, cutting wit, and often utter heresy before they make it to their second bottle of "Blue Nun" wine. Fortunately, they tend to fall over and sleep before they storm the Vatican. *Usually*.
Re:Wide words from a cult leader (Score:5, Insightful)
This pope is pretty nice. He seems to have actually read the bible.
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Lol. Comment of the day.
Re:Wide words from a cult leader (Score:5, Interesting)
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If you get one of the ones with the red letters and just read those, it says that each parable is designed so it can only mean one thing that is consistent with the teachings, but sounds like other things to people who try to interpret it for themselves.
So no. When somebody says that this Pope seems to have read the bible, that's a substantive statement. Each parable has one correct meaning.
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Thought it was gerbils? Also, it's generally fatal to the gerbil, isn't it?
Re: Unsurprising (Score:2)
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That is not a false prophet, that is a heretic who is in the closet.
A false prophet is sent by God, to encourage naughty people not to follow the rituals correctly. God uses false prophets as a cleanup crew for when people who aren't sufficiently enthusiastic in the intent of their worship, but still somehow follow all the rules to cover their sins and be forgiven.
Did you even read Isaiah? The false prophet is a real prophet, giving the false teaching that God instructs. When they return to their own people
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I'm not even a Christian, if you can't read something because you already know you won't believe it, that's your own disability. It wasn't a Virtue, and it didn't have anything to do with not believing everything you hear. In fact, the need to not believe everything you hear, even when it is a religious man in robes telling you, that's an important part of the lesson in Isaiah.
Re:Unsurprising (Score:5, Insightful)
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Go argue with the anti-maskers. Just don't confuse them with powermongers. They certainly don't think they're exposing you to any additional risk. If they're wrong, feel free to criticize them on that particular basis. Don't confuse them ultra-nationalist facist types that are trying to seize control of the government, as the Pope seems to contend.
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The problem, at least with many of them, is that their leader is "ultra-nationalist facist types that are trying to seize control of the government" and literally telling States not to follow the will of the people after losing an election.
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Your right to exhale a deadly virus ends where my lungs begin.
Going out in public without a mask is the moral equivalent of drunk driving. Worse, in some ways.
I don't see people going out to protest about that particular "personal freedom" being taken away from them.
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Err, those anti-maskers aren't going to the public square, where not wearing a mask is fine as long as doing some social distancing, but going into private property and having a tantrum when told that it is private property and everyone has to wear shoes, a shirt and a mask. Shit the other day not far from here, one started punching a Costco employee for defending Costco's property. Then there's the throwing hot coffee, spitting etc from these defenders of freedom.
As for your false equivalence, overloading
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Guess you didn't read what I wrote? Or what the Pope said? How does being an anti-masker make you a power-mad populist? He's using the opportunity to make political statements against nationalist groups while conflating anti-maskers with said nationalists.
Re: Unsurprising (Score:2)
Do you have any data to prove that our you are just bulshitting because they want a different dear leader
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I do agree that the message coming from one of the world's oldest institutions for controlling the masses is a bit self-serving.
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Yeah, why didn't people who just wanted to be left alone tell that to COVID? Then the state would have no need to intervene.
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The clothing of Roman Catholic bishops has its origins in Roman Senatorial garb. In particular, as the Western Roman Empire collapsed, the Church wanted to ensure continuity with the Imperial past, and priests and bishops adopted the garb of Late Roman nobility.
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Re:What'a a pope? (Score:5, Informative)
St. Peter is in the Bible, and Jesus said he was the "rock on which my church shall be built". Peter's martyrdom in Rome and the succession of Linus in 66 or 67 AD set up the succession. Now I think Christianity is an absurd religion based on rather uninformed Classical metaphysics (mainly Aristotle and Neoplatonism, both of which were created long before any indepth understanding of physical laws) and some Hellenic reinterpretations of Jewish monotheism, but the origins of the Papacy are fairly well established.
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St. Peter is in the Bible, and Jesus said he was the "rock on which my church shall be built".
This expression was a humorous play on words (JC was a funny guy) because in Greek, "Peter" means "rock".
The same root shows up in Engish words like "petrify" and "petroleum".
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but the origins of the Papacy are fairly well established.
According to Catholic doctrine, yes. According to Orthodox doctrine, no. The Orthodox and Catholic churches were the same church until the they split up in 1054. That split was not a tiny faction of rebels jumping-out either, it was a split of two huge well-established (and with high numbers of believers) factions growing further and further apart due to theological, political and even geographical reasons.
But anyway, the Orthodox church does not
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Which Pope? There's a few, each having supremacy in his diocese IIRC.
Re:Show the people the money (Score:5, Insightful)
Catholic Charities are very highly rated for financial accountability. But, sure, don't let facts get in the way of your internet rage.
https://www.charitynavigator.o... [charitynavigator.org]
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Unlike the Prosperity Gospel con artists that make up much of Trump's Baptist and Pentecostal base.
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I never said or implied that local, catholic diocese operating in the US were not financial accountability.
But then again, some people see/read only what they want to see/believe.
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Are you insane? He needs all that wealth to buy hundreds of Spaceships from SpaceX in order to save millions of followers before the apocalypse.
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Churches don't have the authority to order people to give up their livelihoods. As such, they aren't financially culpable.
Governments *do* have this authority, and when exercise it, they need to make up the difference somehow.
If the issue is temporary (like this pandemic, hopefully!), then this can take the form of subsidies that last through the emergency. If the issue is more structural and long-term (such as automation of certain jobs), then it should take the form of retraining programs, early retiremen
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Ordering people to give up their jobs, their means of providing for themselves, businesses, traditions, etc. and at the same time not paying them for their very real losses is wrong.
I'm beginning to sense that it's inherently American to to put your job before your own life. I mean we laugh at your lack of work life balance, but this is ridiculous. Good luck providing for yourself from the ICU.
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You're damn right it's American. Work to put food on the plate and shelter over everyone's heads. The minute you start letting someone else take care of that for you, you are owned, lock stock and barrel. If you have a 1% chance of getting knocked off by a disease then the dice roll is actually pretty good. Staying home is guaranteed to sink your family and put them in the gutter or in HUD housing.
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Staying home is guaranteed to sink your family and put them in the gutter or in HUD housing.
Only if that's the rule in your society, and it's the point that folks from US continually fail to see about how pretty much the rest of the western world lives. Freedom and a reasonable social safety net are not mutually exclusive. I would suggest you can't truly have freedom without a reasonable social safety net - being bound to your job is not freedom, it's just another prison.
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Then pay up. The Pope has control of billions in assets. Why doesn't he give away some cash to those who have lost their jobs instead of clinging to the church's wealth?
Because those "billions in assets" are effectively worthless. The Soviets said the same of the Church's assets in the Soviet Union, they took what they found of value in the churches and sold them off. Now what? A lot of ornate gold crosses were melted down for coins and any real value in them were destroyed. They have value because of where they are and what they are. If sold off there's a short infusion of cash but in the long term there's no solution to the problem. The Soviet Union failed because
Re:The greatest conman on earth (Score:4, Funny)
Where is Trump mentioned in any of this?
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He's not even that great of a conman.
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You mean "He whose name need not be mentioned" anymore?
Re:"Common Good" is oppression (Score:5, Insightful)
Wearing a mask isn't extermination. And there really is such a thing as the common good, even if it is abused on occasion. Not even the Framers of the US Constitution intended personal liberties to be absolute, in no small part because there will always be a clash of liberties.
Masks are an extremely modest infringement. Those who think otherwise really are the delicate snowflakes; pathetic, whining children in adult bodies who frankly I find moronic and repulsive.
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Idiots don't understand that the Framers obviously understood that concepts of quarantine, etc. during a pandemic were considered normal procedures prior to the advent of modern medicine and antibiotics, since ancient times. The US has employed these concepts numerous times throughout history, and it was never seen as "anti-Constitutional".
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There certainly were anti-maskers during the Spanish Flu:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
And yes, they did consider mask mandates to be an infringement upon civil liberties.
Re: "Common Good" is oppression (Score:3, Informative)
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How likely do you think it is that businesses will be willing to invest in growth in a country where governors have the power to unilaterally shut them down? The lack of confidence in our elected officials will be a leash on businesses for years, if not decades to come.
It's not about the masks, it's about everything else.
It may take a couple years, but people and businesses will happily forget about the past, and call this a rare one-off. Have people and businesses given up on major metropolitan areas because of 2001/9/11 and other terrorism? Nope. If the opportunity to make money is compelling, the risk will be discounted.
Even the hyper-individualist Ayn Rand recognized that there were such things as emergencies that were temporary events demonstrably hostile to human life, and such rationally required a different minds
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Every oppressive government, ever, has cited the "Common Good" when exterminating people inconvenient to their rule.
I mean I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but calling his purposeful indifference to the virus and support for the common good of the economy an "extermination" of people is going a bit far.
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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
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Ok, typhoid Mary. Whatever.
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Curfews tend to put a damper on things like getting ripped at a club. A bunch of drunk people in a crowded place is likely to cause more spread of disease (Mostly STDs in normal circumstances, COVID presently) than people going to the park in the afternoon.
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Regardless of that all, however, our constitution and rights are not conditional. Our founders understood how dangerous governments are. A lesson I fear we're on the brink of having to learn again.
The Constitution is not a suicide pact" is a phrase in American political and legal discourse. The phrase expresses the belief that constitutional restrictions on governmental power must be balanced against the need for survival of the state and its people. [wikipedia.org]
Both founders and earlier SCOTUS have said over and over, that the constitution is NOT a suicide pact
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What, pray tell, was Italy's mortality rate in the worst part of their First Wave?
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I guess that you did not pay attention to what was really happening in all this crap. Eh?
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You are aware that he's free to wear a mask if he so chooses, no? Even in the absence of a mandate?
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With personal freedom, comes personal responsibility. What right do you have to expose others to this?
I’m for letting people go maskless and forgo social distancing if we can back track covid victims and convict the assailant they caught it unwillingly from for assault or manslaughter.
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Your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose.