Spain Readies Big Reduction in Single-Use Plastics From Mid-2021 (bloomberg.com) 54
Spain is preparing to significantly reduce the distribution and sale of single-use plastic cutlery, straws, cups and products containing microplastics as part of the government's drive to promote recycling and reduce waste. From a report: The government wants to ban the sale of single-use plastics from July 3, 2021, and to ban the free distribution of these items from the start of 2023, according to a bill distributed to journalists. It's due to approve the legislation at its weekly cabinet meeting on Tuesday before taking it to congress for full debate. Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has already made protection of the environment a centerpiece of government's strategy after setting a goal for Spain to be carbon neutral by 2050. The government is also presenting bills to regulate waste transport and outline Spain's push for an economic model based on re-use of materials and elimination of waste.
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The debate among the greens over paper vs plastic will never end. It's gone back a forth a few times now in my lifetime. I'm sure it will again.
I wouldn't mind paper bags making a comeback for groceries - the things are useful. But paper cups for liquids are rubbish - the ones that work well have a sprayed-in plastic coating anyway.
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I'm pretty sure that it's been settled for a while now that the "greens" have wanted reusable, recyclable, and compostable bags, like natural fiber cloth bags.
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Well, I've used re-usable bags for years - as soon as I lived somewhere where the government wasn't pressuring me to use them, I started using them. But the whole "paper vs plastic" debate rages regardless.
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as soon as I lived somewhere where the government wasn't pressuring me to use them, I started using them
Interesting... I should probably let you know the government is also strongly recommending people shouldn't drink bleach. Your move.
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They aren't yet taxing me for not drinking bleach, so they aren't serious about it. Keep your hopes up though.
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For me, the paper bags are perfect trashcans for recyclables, since you can't recycle the plastic bags anywhere I've lived.
Re: About time (Score:2)
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Why use bags at all if you're travelling by car?
Put your bags in the trunk, and the first time you hit a bend on your way home the bag falls over and spills its contents all over your trunk...
But if you use boxes, they fit into the trunk better and won't call over or spill their contents on the way.
Even better, the supermarket should have a large stock of boxes because that's how products are delivered to the supermarket.
Cardboard boxes are also biodegradable.
Bags are meant for carrying on foot..
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When you live in a second floor apartment some distance from your parking space, you'll understand. That's also why I prefer reusable bags: the bag or handles won't ever fail halfway up the stairs.
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Paper bags fall apart if they get wet...
This can happen if it rains, if something in your groceries leaks, if you're carrying refrigerated/frozen goods that cause condensation etc.
Single use plastic bags were usually used twice, once to carry groceries and a second time as a trash bag. Since disposable bags have been banned, people now buy single use trash bags which are only used once.
New plastic bags were always clean, people can't be trusted to maintain proper hygiene on their reusable bags. Some people
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You're a 6-digit id. Are you old enough to remember paper bags at the grocery store? I am. As well, I grew up in apartment buildings. We weren't all wealthy enough to live in detached homes in the 1950s, and even fewer of us are today. I remember the trails of cooking oil on the hallway carpet leading from each apt door to the garbage chute when those bags were used to carry out kitchen waste. And the smells in the hallways. I still live in an apartment building, except it's a condo. And there are no smells
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I knew someone born in the late 1800s who said that the single invention that most improved quality of life in her lifetime was the plastic kitchen garbage bag. It amazes me to this day that some people are too cheap to buy them. I do find many other uses for the paper bags though - they're great for disposable totes, trashcans for things that aren't wet, and so on.
Carry a knife and folding spoon/fork (Score:3)
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And if you absolutely need to buy something to drink, do not choose something that comes in a plastic bottle.
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Easier said than done, though.
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Cans aren't going anywhere.
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Oi mate! You got a loicense for that spork?
Re:Carry a knife and folding spoon/fork (Score:4, Informative)
What many might not realize is that in Europe, buying food or drinks to go is not a common practice, contrary to the US where it's pretty much the norm. People usually eat at home, and at work they would use non-disposable cutlery (washed).
Many cars didn't have cupholders until recently. That came from the US.
To-go still exists but is relatively minor and can use paper/cardboard. So to summarize this is not a huge disruption in the economy.
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What many might not realize is that in Europe, buying food or drinks to go is not a common practice
In the past 15 years I've been to a dozen different European countries. They all sell water in plastic bottles.
I've spent enough time in Europe to confirm that buying food "to go" is common in Germany, Holland and the UK at least; I can't comment either way on other European countries without spending more time there. But please, tell us which European country _doesn't_ have a McDonalds.
Not just Europe either. I've been able to buy bottled water and takeaway food in 40 countries on six continents.
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I meant, buying food to go as your main way of feeding. Like, 95% of meals being bought to go. Vs cooked at home.
Of course to-go exists in Europe. It's just not the end of the world if it is restricted. In the US, any time you put any restriction on convenience for to-go food, you get a huge backlash because you're asking people to change their way of life.
Re: Carry a knife and folding spoon/fork (Score:2)
Re:It's an EU directive (Score:5, Insightful)
I appreciate the sentiment, but there is some danger, from a couple fronts. First, the carbon footprint of making and disposing of single-use plastics is tiny. Disposable paper bags have about 4x the carbon footprint, and a lot worse indirect environmental impacts. A reusable cotton bag has an over two orders of magnitude higher carbon footprint than a single-use plastic bag, and a lot of indirect impacts. Multiuse polypropylene bags by contrast are "only" one order of magnitude more resource-intensive than single-use plastic bags.
Even more impactful than single-use bags is found in how the food itself is packaged. But this is where cutting back tends to become particularly problematic. A lot of product packaging is designed to reduce the rate of spoilage and consumer rejection of the product. For example, a lot of the plastics around dry goods are vapour and/or oxygen barriers, which help keep them from going stale or spoiling. Around fragile goods, they help prevent breakage. Around fresh goods, they're designed to reduce bruising and spoilage rates. Etc. And the problem is that the contents of said packaging are way, way more carbon intensive (and general adverse environmental impacts) than the packaging itself. So if by eliminating or changing the packaging you only marginally increase the rate of food waste, you cause dramatically worse net environmental impacts.
There's a complex balancing act in play, and there's always a danger that you can shoot yourself in the foot.
That said, the dangers don't imply an argument of, "do nothing". They imply an argument of, "don't base things on broad feel-good government mandates, but rather, careful scientific study, inclusive of indirect impacts".
Re:It's an EU directive (Score:5, Informative)
>First, the carbon footprint of making and disposing of single-use plastics is tiny.
The carbon footprint of production is only a tiny portion of the environmental impact of plastics.
> Multiuse polypropylene bags by contrast are "only" one order of magnitude more resource-intensive than single-use plastic bags.
So you reuse the bag around ten times and it's a net win - I'm not seeing a problem.
Packaging is indeed a potential issue if not considered carefully, but there's lots of options. Glass, paper (possibly waxed), foil, etc. All of which are relatively low impact if recycled - something that you can't really do with current plastics.
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I have the feeling your numbers are not divided by the number of uses reusable bags get.
This is definitely true.
The plastics are only vapor and oxygen di
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A reusable cotton bag has an over two orders of magnitude higher carbon footprint than a single-use plastic bag
That's fine. Having used the same cotton bag for an entire year and going shopping pretty much daily it's still a net win.
Fake environmentalism. (Score:1)
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The good kind of environmentalism. (Score:3)
Maybe you're right that deteriorating single use items made out of other materials use more of it, but branding it as fake kind of environmentalism isn't correct.
Like many things, it's a trade-off. In this case it's using a bit more resources (assuming you're right) against preventing pollution. I take preventing pollution any day. Sure, the singe use items might be a little more expensive, but that puts the cost on those using it instead of fobbing off the cost of the pollution and the cleanup on society.
I
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It's a little more complicated that just resources and emissions. Retailers like plastic packaging because it is durable, it doesn't smash or tear so easily so there is less breakage and written off stock. Plastic bottles weigh less too. Consumers like it for similar reasons, and because it's more convenient.
Another issue is that people are willing to pay for bottled water but not to fill their own bottles. In Europe in restaurants tap water is usually free. Even with stuff like soft drinks they expect a di
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>Another issue is that people are willing to pay for bottled water but not to fill their own bottles.
I'm not seeing the issue - the bottle is usually 90+% of the production cost of the beverage. 8-16 oz of water is practically free, and sugar, flavorings, and carbonation don't increase the cost much. There's a reason soda fountains can sell any size soda for the same price - they're pretty much pure profit at any size.
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We should be looking into switching to aluminium cans for beverages and green plastics such as PLA for the rest.
Sometimes it's the small details that every single person can do on their own, like carrying their own utensils. There's already plenty of camping ones available, with carrying cases, etc. Some are even better and tougher than what most people use at home, too.
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"Plastics are light weight but still strong and flexible, using less material to begin with."
And designed for single use. Why do they have to be so strong that they need thousands of years to decompose?
I have a stainless steel straw in my inner pocket, my country banned plastic bags over a decade ago, everybody uses typar-bags (Dupont) that are almost indestructible and even if they break, you get a new one for free if you return it in any shop.
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Chopsticks can be dangerous..
Knives can be dangerous..
Forks can be dangerous..
Stainless steel straws are just another in a long list of dangerous implements that people use for eating.
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Too late (Score:2)
By 2050 it will be too late. In fact, without extremely agressive strategies, it may already be too late.
On the upside, the current worldwide pandemic forced practically every company around the world to see that most of the white collar jobs [wikipedia.org] can be done remotely from home, meaning lower costs for everyone (no need for big offices, no
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By 2050 it will be too late. In fact, without extremely agressive strategies, it may already be too late.
On the upside, the current worldwide pandemic forced practically every company around the world to see that most of the white collar jobs [wikipedia.org] can be done remotely from home, meaning lower costs for everyone (no need for big offices, no need to waste fuel and time on the road every day, etc). So for once, greed and the environment are on the same side of a solution.
Depends on what you mean too late. It is perhaps too late to prevent a 1,5-2 degree C increase, but 2050 is definitely not too late to prevent the kind of 6 degree C increase that caused the Permian–Triassic extinction event. That being said, even if we mange to restrict the temperature increase to a max of of 3.5 degrees C by 2100, that is still scarily close to what caused the PT event.
Good luck (Score:2)
The Coronavirus pandemic has shut down the use of reusable bags. Just as municipalities all around Seattle (and other places) were putting disposable bag bans into place, the need to keep filthy, virus laden sacks that have been who-knows-where out of grocery stores has become the priority. Paper appears to be the only viable alternative.
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Its actually been interesting to watch the progression out here in California...
- Ban disposable bags! Bring your own reusable! If you forgot it, then pay up for a paper bag.
- Uh oh, coronavirus threat! Ban reusable bags! We'll just give you that paper bag for free now (or still charge, depending on store).
- Oops, we've now run out of paper bags. Back to plastic bags for everyone!
So now its almost entirely plastic bags, and not the really thin ones they used to use. Okay, they probably claim to be "recyclab
can we just keep the straws? (Score:2)
I've got no problem switching back to paper bags and going to cardboard packaging, etc;
But paper straws SUCK (sic).
Also hotels and resorts are going back to individual soap and shampoo bottles again after Covid-19 as bulk dispensers aren't hygienic..
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But paper straws SUCK (sic).
And anyone with kids will probably complain doubly about this, as kids tend to chew on the end of the straw and make paper ones go useless even faster.
Still, its amusing just how quickly we went from "reuse all the things!" to "reuse is a disease vector, back to single-use plastic."
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>But paper straws SUCK
Sure do. But reusable ones are actually a big upgrade, whether they be stainless steel, silicone, or heavy plastic. If you want to use a straw instead of drinking from the cup like a normal person, bring a straw that suits your tastes. You can keep it in the same slim case that you carry your metal cutlery in, and greatly improve the take-out experience.
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I think those stretch the definition of "drinking", but I can and have - and the experience is sorely lacking. In fact shakes, smoothies, and the like are about the only thing I use straw for.
Now, try drinking one through a nice fat steel or rigid plastic reusable straw, and see what a huge improvement that makes over those flimsy, disposable, undersized tubes that constantly threaten to collapse under the suction.
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No, you can not keep the straws. Learn to drink from a cup. You're not four any more.
If you really can't do that, buy an adult sippy cup.
so... no more garbage bags? (Score:2)
Personally, I've been using those grocery store bags as garbage bags for a really long time. I guess now we are all required to pay for them?
Go Spain! (Score:4, Informative)
Unlike many people complaining about this idea I actually live in Spain and hope this will get passed. Free plastic bags are already banned in stores and guess what? We didn't replace them with paper bags nor do we carry groceries in buckets. If you want you can still buy plastic bag. Or you can get reusable one and save money. Same thing will happen here. Single use will be replaced by reusable. We already were doing it will glass, we can do it with plastic.
I keep reading here about how useless recycling is and how careful you have to be to do it right and not contaminate the entire container. That's US specific problem. Here you just separate paper, glass and plastic. Everything goes to sorting facility and is taken care of. Expensive? No. There was a story in the news recently about gangs stealing recyclables from trash bins in Madrid. City lost millions. Yes, you can actually sell cardboard.
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So you agree it's both possible and needed yet you sound like you're trying to prove me wrong. Weird.
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