PopSockets CEO Calls Out Amazon's 'Bullying With a Smile' Tactics (mashable.com) 68
At a House Judiciary antitrust subcommittee on competition in the digital economy, PopSockets CEO and inventor David Barnett described how Amazon used shady tactics to pressure their smartphone accessory company. Mashable reports: "Multiple times we discovered that Amazon itself had sourced counterfeit product and was selling it alongside our own product," he noted. Barnett, under oath, told the gathered members of the House that Amazon initially played nice only to drop the hammer when it believed no one was watching. After agreeing to a written contract stipulating a price at which PopSockets would be sold on Amazon, the e-commerce giant would then allegedly unilaterally lower the price and demand that PopSockets make up the difference. Colorado Congressman Ed Perlmutter asked Barnett how Amazon could "ignore the contract that [PopSockets] entered into and just say, 'Sorry, that was our contract, but you got to lower your price.'" Barnett didn't mince words. "With coercive tactics, basically," he replied. "And these are tactics that are mainly executed by phone. It's one of the strangest relationships I've ever had with a retailer."
Barnett emphasized that, on paper, the contract "appears to be negotiated in good faith." However, he claimed, this is followed by "... frequent phone calls. And on the phone calls we get what I might call bullying with a smile. Very friendly people that we deal with who say, 'By the way, we dropped the price of X product last week. We need you to pay for it.'" Barnett said he would push back and that's when "the threats come." He asserted that Amazon representatives would tell him over the phone: "If we don't get it, then we're going to source product from the gray market."
Barnett emphasized that, on paper, the contract "appears to be negotiated in good faith." However, he claimed, this is followed by "... frequent phone calls. And on the phone calls we get what I might call bullying with a smile. Very friendly people that we deal with who say, 'By the way, we dropped the price of X product last week. We need you to pay for it.'" Barnett said he would push back and that's when "the threats come." He asserted that Amazon representatives would tell him over the phone: "If we don't get it, then we're going to source product from the gray market."
WTF is this "PopSockets"? (Score:2)
PopSocket (Score:2)
yup.
Normally, I would agree that Amazon's tactics are problematic (which reeks of I am altering the deal, pray I don't alter it any further [knowyourmeme.com]), on top of their classic merchandise co-mingling antics.
But in that specific case the complaining company, PopSockets, aren't saints either: they are trying to build a name around a dead-cheap but marginally useful chinese-built trinket. What would they expect? Of course there is going to be tons of other similar junk from China all over Amazon/ebay/Aliexpress... How d
Re:Wanting to sell something cheaper? Villainy! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Wanting to sell something cheaper? Villainy! (Score:5, Interesting)
Is it even pretending or making a claim to be the original company's products?
A lot of the time the description is "like PopSocket" and then some bad grammar description of the product itself, "holder you to stick for your phone holder for fun with friends".
And people see a picture and that it's 99 cents cheaper and buy it.
People complain that Amazon's search and filtering is shitty, I think it is too, but I think the problem is Amazon is happy to use brand names as keywords for categories of items which mix branded and generic/greymarket products. So if you search for Popsocket you get the branded product and the generic items, even if some generics don't use "like Popsocket" in their description.
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That doesn't explain all the reviews which sit on genuine products and describe receiving a counterfeit. Always wondered where that came from and now I think I know.
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I think has been explained as Amazon commingling legitimate product and greymarket product from third party sellers in the same bin.
But it could also easily be a deliberate strong-arm tactic to cause buyers to get greymarket instead of real with Amazon knowing that sellers trying for the branded product get greymarket.
Doing business (Score:2)
Re:Doing business (Score:4, Informative)
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Unlikely, they employee an army of lawyers and tend to be hyper aware of the the issues around such contracts.
I also really wonder if when they say 'Amazon' has sourced counterfeit products they are not referencing an Amazon merchant. There are certainly shitty merchants that offer a product that is counterfeit and invariably the reviews mention this. They don't talk about the merchant, but rate the overall product poorly. Not understanding there are multiple merchants.
Pop Sockets can absolutely run their o
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Re: Doing business (Score:2)
Are you for real? You think that having lawyers keeps companies honest? WHAT THE FUCK?
Is anyone actually surprised that a ton of Amazon shills would suddenly ooze out of the woodwork and spew disingenuous stupidity?? Bezos is hardly likely to pay enough to retain smart shills...
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"The gray market" = the factory itself. (Score:5, Informative)
Alibaba pulls this stunt all the time too -- go direct to the supplier and get the item, possibly (but not always) with a new name on it. These may be rejects, they may be overproduction, or they may be cranked out specifically to order and just as good as the original. If they're not counterfeit branded, there's very little the seller can do about it in any case.
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No, it doesn't say that. It says that they were getting product from another supplier, which does not rule out the original factory. Also if the item is sufficiently simple (like non-powered toys, for example), it's not at all hard to have another factory clone the item -- either well or extremely cheaply, it would be Amazon's call (and they'll probably go the extremely cheap route).
Walmart (Score:2)
Google Parent Alphabet Market Cap $1 Trillion (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't get in the Trillion Dollar Club unless you are completely corrupt. That's just how capitalism works.
Re:Google Parent Alphabet Market Cap $1 Trillion (Score:4, Insightful)
>"You don't get in the Trillion Dollar Club unless you are completely corrupt. That's just how capitalism works."
No, but that might be how crony capitalism and/or capitalism without suitable anti-trust safeties work, however. There is a big difference. But it can also be a company that gives consumers what they want and isn't doing anything "wrong" at all. Oh, and amount of revenue earned or stock valuation really has little to do with it; corruption can come in any size, flavor, color, shape, or type and within any system that includes humans in it.
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Walmart on steroids (Score:5, Insightful)
That sounds a lot like Walmart's tactics from back in the day [pbs.org]. A startup business CEO would fly to Bentonville, have a sit down with the execs, and walk away with a purchase order. After the initial sale went well, Walmart would tell the startup that they need to drop the price. The startup often would eat the costs, because the volumes Walmart would promise was worth the cut to the margins. But Walmart would keep pushing the costs lower, and when the startup would say they couldn't go any lower, Walmart execs would suggest them to move production to China. They often insisted, even sharing contact info for manufacturers who worked very closely with Walmart and already had logistics worked out.
But at least Walmart gave companies the honor of saying yes or no, even if coerced. Leave it to Amazon to just skip all the foreplay and go right to China for the moneyshot.
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Sounds like you read "The WalMart Effect" too.
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I thought about the Walmart comparison too -- although the version of the story I heard never mentioned pushing vendors to move production to China for a lower cost. The stories I heard typically said the small businesses awarded the deals to sell in Walmart were cornered, up against a wall, at some point. Because what Walmart knew would usually happen is a new vendor wouldn't have the capabilities to produce the quantities Walmart asked for. So they'd take out a huge business loan to build those capabiliti
Just say no? (Score:3)
I've had plenty of times where I could not find something on Amazon and then guess what? I went somewhere else to get the real thing. Don't assume that everyone will always buy the knock off.
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In fact, businesses like Walmart and Amazon, prey on the majority that do not. I believe that being loyal to my community when making a purchase adds value to my community and life. Does that mean even a projectable segment of the population does so?
Amazon and Walmart having such a high marke
Re:Just say no? (Score:4, Informative)
Other than fast delivery there isn't a compelling reason to buy from them anymore. Half the shit they sell isn't actually sold by them. Their prices aren't cheap like they used to be and now tax is collected. Plenty of times places like Target and Walmart have things cheaper.
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Which essentially, lands us in the same pile of crap.
What other reasons, have there ever been?
It's not like before, getting a good market share and cracking down on shady once they got a board,
That they have ever have had anything to offer besides speedy delivery to your home.
Am I missing something? Fast delivery is and has always been their platform no matter what you get stuck with.
Such logistics is why people
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Amazon is good for buying mixed items that are pretty cheap individually.
On my side of the Atlantic (Germany), Amazon has a combination of low-ish prices and great variety. Buying from Amazon directly, the prices are not the very lowest, but with the wide variety of products it is usually possible to find 30 Euro worth of stuff you really want to have. At that total price, the free delivery kicks in and the total deal becomes usually cheaper than ordering piecemeal from different merchants. Also, delivery i
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I wanted to get some Arctis gaming headphones for my wife for xmas. Amazon had them for $99 (with tax) and Target had them for $79 (with tax). We do have a prime account and its nice for specialty food items.
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Just my opinion - slow grind (Score:5, Interesting)
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I don't care about the spellings as much as the solid wall of non-formatted text.
After a long day of work I am not willing to read it.
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Just choose plain old text and formatting works fine with no HTML.
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I've followed this site and wasn't aware of the workings, when posting.
That said I find it very suspicoius, that someone who claims they didn't read my post.
But has clearly read my entire post. Gets on all slap happy, but won't debate the substance.
And claims not to have read it.
I'm fine with formatting myself.
HTML 1.0 is like being a kid again.
That said. I need a blink tag, as anyone knows it was discontinued.
For what reasons, I don't know.
T
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Amazon already has a grey market problem (Score:5, Insightful)
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Great post. Even if a buyer is diligent, they can get screwed. I try to avoid marketplace sellers because of counterfeits and review fraud, but what you point out is that "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" only goes so far as a protection. Ironically, Amazon's success is driving me more to brick and mortar stores.
Getting it on the record (Score:4, Informative)
Amazon's tactics are one reason why in business (and for individuals too, for that matter) all phone calls should be recorded as a matter of course. Legality be damned, it's the only way to be sure you have documentary evidence when you need it.
Re: Getting it on the record (Score:1)
Re: Getting it on the record (Score:1)
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Re: Getting it on the record (Score:2)
Yes, record calls. But no need to be shady, just inform them that all calls are recorded.
I want to know why it is so hard to record a call on your smartphone. Basically impossible without rooting.
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Yes, record calls. But no need to be shady, just inform them that all calls are recorded.
I want to know why it is so hard to record a call on your smartphone. Basically impossible without rooting.
So they aren't facilitating lawbreaking. Route through google voice and you can.
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> So they aren't facilitating lawbreaking. Route through google voice and you can.
Haha, their phone is programmed so that you have to give up the contents of your call to their servers if you want to exercise your legal rights in many states.
Good move for Surveillance, Inc.
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Yes, record calls. But no need to be shady, just inform them that all calls are recorded.
Try it. They will immediately hang up on you if you tell them you are recording the call. That's been my experience, anyway.
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...as long as you're in a one party consent state.
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> ...as long as you're in a one party consent state.
Terminate your PSTN calls at a VoIP POP in one of those States and do the recording there. Access those calls remotely via VoIP.
Don't do the recordings in a State where that recording would be made inadmissible.
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Or the call is across state lines.
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Textbook psychopathic behavior. (Score:3)
If corporations are people, Amazon needs to be locked up until the meds are properly adjusted.
That means Bezos specifially. And everyone from the corporate culture he hired at least needs to be removed from that environment and checked for it.
Why are people not doing that, despite clear evidence? Somehow it almost seems to be expected. Like murder is somehow alright when "it's a war". Makes no sense to me. Either it's harmful or it isn't. And when it's harmful, and intentional, it's a crime.
This is Strategy, Not Accident (Score:5, Insightful)
Several months later, I happened to be searching Amazon's web site, when I spotted what appeared to be a replica of the very unit I now possess, down to critical design features, but offered by some random Chinese company.
I picked up the phone and called the manufacturer of the legitimate product. I ended up speaking with the CEO and the experience he relayed to me was chilling.
Out of the blue the company received a call from someone in Amazon purchasing, who said something along the lines of, "We have incredible data analytics that helps us understand what our customers want. I'm delighted to tell you that we see a real demand for your product and I'm going to offer you an amazing deal. We're going to buy {this many} of your product for {this much} each and sell them on Amazon..."
The discussion did not go well. In the end, the CEO told me, he had to go to court to stop Amazon from attempting to undermine his business by using his company name. It cost him tens of thousands, but he got the result his business needed. Amazon's response was to turn around, go to a manufacturer in China and have them knock-off his product, down to key design features.
The big challenge that a western company faces when dealing with Chinese-made clones is of course that China doesn't really respect international patent, copyright, trade dress or trade secret laws. Quite the opposite.
Worse... Amazon knows that a significant portion of their "resellers" retail counterfeit product through the Amazon reseller market. They don't act because they would rather take their percentage than dispose of the reseller. This is especially true of software counterfeiters - I've ordered brand-name software from a supposed tech retail company with an Amazon storefront. I've reported the issue to Amazon - the company is still trading...
And most outrageous of all... About 3 years ago my home printer - an HP Deskjet - died. I found one offered by a local reseller on Amazon and ordered it. I received a shipping notification and my credit card was charged... 2 days after the quoted delivery date the printer had not arrived, so I got in touch with the reseller, who apologized and told me that they didn't have any in stock. "But I have an Amazon email that says you shipped it..." I responded...
"Oh yes, they do that. But Amazon do not have visibility in to our dispatching system and we haven't notified Amazon that we ship. They make that up just so they can charge your credit card..."
You would think that a company with the size and profitability of Amazon could afford to play by the rules. Apparently, breaking the rules is inseparable from the company.
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> You would think that a company with the size and profitability of Amazon could afford to play by the rules. Apparently, breaking the rules is inseparable from the company.
If that were true The Washington Post would have done a big expose on this!
They were doing this back in early 2000 (Score:5, Interesting)
When I helped build Cabelas.com back in the early 2000's. After we were live for a couple years, Amazon approached us to be their outdoor product vendor. We looked over all the "terms and conditions" and told Amazon to take hike! They stated clearly back then that they could dictate pricing and that Cabelas was not allowed to market to the customers we sold to. As they wer Amazons customer NOT Cabelas. Also all we would get was an order, we were ONLY a fulfillment company at that point We didn't even process the payment - Amazon did and they would send you a "check" (make payment) for all sales monthly. Don't get me started about their bullshit data feed process. You had to send them updated product and inventory data every 2 hours and if they failed to get your data feed it was YOUR fault regardless if something was wrong on Amazons end. Amazon is just the new Walmart when it comes to shady practices!
This is common in Texas (Score:1)
I have been a victim of similar corruption. It is caused by lazy courts that do not want to dog through complicated stories. The bad guys do one thing when it is easy to record and another thing when they have hacked your phone. This needs to be a federal felony.
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Or maybe it's because you come across as a literal crazy person.
"The bad guys do one thing when it is easy to record and another thing when they have hacked your phone. This needs to be a federal felony."
What? WTF are you even talking about?
Obligatory Star Wars... (Score:2)
Colorado Congressman Ed Perlmutter asked Barnett how Amazon could "ignore the contract that [PopSockets] entered into and just say, 'Sorry, that was our contract, but you got to lower your price.'" Barnett didn't mince words. "With coercive tactics, basically," he replied.
"I am altering the contract. Pray I don't alter it any further." [youtube.com]