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New Yorkers Protest Amazon HQ2: 'We Should Be Investing in Housing ... Not in Helicopters' (geekwire.com) 199

Posted by msmash from the so-it-begins dept.
An anonymous reader shares a report: Shawn Dixon's life changed overnight. On Tuesday he was surprised to learn that Amazon plans to build a giant campus with room for thousands of high-paid workers on the same block as the small business he owns, Otis & Finn Barbershop. "We woke up yesterday with our whole world upside down," Dixon said. The announcement that one half of Amazon HQ2 is moving into his neighborhood -- Long Island City in Queens, New York -- motivated Dixon to attend a protest of Amazon's future campus Wednesday. He was joined by elected officials, labor leaders, and activists who gathered to speak out against the tax incentives, government subsidies and other perks -- including a helipad -- that New York is offering Amazon in exchange for the thousands of jobs the company promises to bring.

"We're worried about our ability to stay in the neighborhood," Dixon said. "I'm not against growth and I'm not against Amazon but what I'm against is giving away all this money to one of the richest companies in the world when our schools are underfunded, we don't have schools in this neighborhood, the trains don't run here, and small business owners have no protections." The rally was organized by New York State Sen. Michael Gianaris, who represents the Queens neighborhood Amazon is moving into. "By the way, Amazon was coming here without all this money anyway," Gianaris said when he took the podium.
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New Yorkers Protest Amazon HQ2: 'We Should Be Investing in Housing ... Not in Helicopters' More

New Yorkers Protest Amazon HQ2: 'We Should Be Investing in Housing ... Not in Helicopters'

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  • Buy your condo or house (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WillAffleckUW ( 858324 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:31PM (#57644250) Homepage Journal

    Look, resistance is futile.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go sell the house I bought just a few years ago for five times what I paid for it.

    That said, you do have elections. But, as you can see with Seattle, those don't matter either.

    • The problem with rising property prices is that, sure you can sell your house for 5 times what you paid for it, but unless you're moving out of the areas, you're probably overpaying for your next house.

      • The problem with rising property prices is that, sure you can sell your house for 5 times what you paid for it, but unless you're moving out of the areas, you're probably overpaying for your next house.

        Which a lot of people are doing. Looking around, your primary residence should be about 20-40% of your net worth. That being ideal, most people are probably worse, say 50% if they own a house. If you can get five times that, you possibly have a nest egg large enough to move away, get a cheaper house and even a different job. Friends in Seattle are looking at this scenario right now. They got a good house at a good price years ago. It's now valued at almost three times what they paid for it. If it should rea

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by guruevi ( 827432 )

      The problem with NYC and Seattle is that they keep supporting and electing the SAME leftist cronies. All of NY is ran the same way (DeBlasio, Cuomo) because NYC and Albany keeps electing Blue even though practically the entire rest of the state is Red and they're running the highest taxes, the highest cronyism; Cuomo and DeBlasio both have had lawsuits in regards benefitting particular contractors they either own or have family that owns with high value contracts.

      • Re:Buy your condo or house (Score:5, Informative)

        by Big Boss ( 7354 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:12PM (#57644570)

        Living under rightist cronies in Utah, they are no better and not really any worse either. The false dichotomy of D/R, red/blue is the problem. Neither group really wants to limit government, they differ in what areas they prefer more government, but the net result is always more and always helps out those with the most gold.

        • Most Americans want more benefits, and most Americans want lower taxes. Politicians who are too strongly opposed to either of those things tend to get voted out.
          • The way I see things it's more like: "Most Americans either want either better benefits or lower taxes, but neither wants to actually pay for it". Those wanting more benefits, primarily poor people, want it paid by increasing taxes on particularly the rich and the people who want lower taxes, primarily rich people, want it paid by cutting benefits.

            As much as people in the U.S don't want to talk about class struggles, the reality is that much of U.S politics is pretty much exactly that. The main thing tha

      • Re:Buy your condo or house (Score:5, Informative)

        by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:13PM (#57644578)

        NYC and Albany keeps electing Blue

        For 19 years, from 1994 to 2013, NYC had a Republican mayor.

      • Re:Buy your condo or house (Score:5, Insightful)

        by youngone ( 975102 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:22PM (#57644634)

        ...they keep supporting and electing the SAME leftist cronies.

        How do you account for the massive subsidies paid by Wisconsin to Foxconn to build a factory, (which they're not really even going to honour anyway), or are you suggesting Scott Walker is a "leftist"?
        The reality is that your system of government in the US is open to the highest bidder, and if this Mr. Dixon has a problem with New York providing Amazon with subsidies, but not his business, then he should do what Amazon has done, and buy some politicians.

      • The problem with NYC and Seattle is that they keep supporting and electing the SAME leftist cronies.

        No, the problem with NYC and Seattle (and San Francisco, and LA, and....) is zoning.

        The vast majority of housing in both cities is 4 stories or less with a huge portion of it being single-family residences. Getting a variance from the relevant zoning to build denser housing is really damn hard and expensive. Which means what little denser housing you do build is going to be targeted at wealthier buyers.

        Why is zoning a problem? Because most of the people who currently live in these cities own property in

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by whitroth ( 9367 )

      Go fuck yourself, libertarian prick.

      The majority of people who buy a house are buying a HOME, NOT and "investment property". They want to stay there, in that neighborhood, not go somewhere else.

      I strongly supported candidates here in Montgomery Co, MD, that were against Amazon's locating here, and they won.

      You don't care about bad traffic becoming worse, you don't care that they avoid paying taxes, you don't care that WE, the taxpayers, have to pay for what they don't, and as far as I know, the tax breaks g

      • I'm definitely not a Liebartarian, I'm pro-transit, pro-bike, and pro-walking, and I live in Seattle.

        Not disagreeing that tax giveaways are bad.

        My advice still stands.

  • It's now happening in areas more willing/able to resist. Too bad the game is rigged.

  • How much do you want to stay in the neighborhood? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ichijo ( 607641 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:36PM (#57644282) Journal

    "We're worried about our ability to stay in the neighborhood," Dixon said.

    Then maybe you should allow more density [gothamgazette.com]. Restricting supply is a great way to make things unaffordable!

    • Increase NYC's density and you get Shinjuku without the politeness or cleanliness.

      I'm no fan of cities in general, much less New York, but one of "The Rotten Apple's" biggest attractions is all the open space (relatively speaking).

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Ichijo ( 607641 )

        There's no need to convert parks to condo towers in order to achieve Barcelona's level of density (about 2x Queens').

    • That still wouldn’t work because they’ll continue to insist on rent control. No developer wants to put up an expensive new apartment building if it means that they can’t charge market rates. That’s usually why all new development in cities by private investors is for luxury condos. Those are typically immune from any rent control ordinances.

    • "We're worried about our ability to stay in the neighborhood," Dixon said.

      Then maybe you should allow more density [gothamgazette.com]. Restricting supply is a great way to make things unaffordable!

      There's a reason that places like California have laws to encourage development of affordable housing, and that reason is that developers on their own will not build affordable housing unless they happen to be philanthropists. Simply building housing in non-affordable areas with no other constraints on that development often results in more units of unaffordable housing. While it's true that restricting supply often raises prices in a free, fluid market, increasing supply in constricted markets with other

  • How terrible (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Their property values will sky rocket and thousands of new people will be in walking distance to their businesses.

    • Doesn't help if you're renting

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jythie ( 914043 )
      great for slumlords, not so great for people actually living there.

  • Absolutely. Same goes for olympics, stadiums, etc (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:40PM (#57644308)

    Anyone who thinks these giveaways to big corporations for supposed reward (jobs, media exposure, etc.) needs to listen to the Citations Needed [libsyn.com] Podcast, particularly Episode 20, "How Sports Are Used to Fleece Public Trusts [libsyn.com]".

    There's a good reason Amazon's HQ search was often called [counterpunch.org] Bezos' "quest to find America's Dumbest Mayor". Looks like he found more than one.

    My heart goes out to the people. Maybe it's not too late to replace your representatives and undo this.. :(

    • Re:Absolutely. Same goes for olympics, stadiums, e (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Shotgun ( 30919 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:47PM (#57644374)

      The problem is that it is a tragedy of the commons situation. If New York doesn't give an incentive, then maybe Raleigh, NC will. Then, as in all markets, it comes down to what will the market bear. I think there needs to be a few court cases of unfair taxation that go up to the Supreme Court. The other answer is that people fight to reduce the role of government everywhere, but then they'd have to give up their rent-controlled apartments and cheap subway tickets.

      • So. Let them move to North Carolaaaahna.

      • I think there needs to be a few court cases of unfair taxation that go up to the Supreme Court.

        Would that apply to "enterprise zones" tax breaks designed to boost poor areas too?

        Or does it just apply to incentives for disliked tech companies?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mea2214 ( 935585 )
        Drivers will have to give up the cheap roads and bridges they drive on.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Shotgun ( 30919 )

          Where I live, the fuel taxes cover the cost of road building and maintenance. It's even enough to fund some bus systems that are mostly empty every time I see them.

    • This is nothing like the Olympics. The issue there is that you build a bunch of expensive stadiums and other crap that nobody ever uses again but it requires a lot of expensive maintenance so it either continues to drain money or just decays into a wasteland.

    • Apparently Long Island City's mayor is extra dumb, because Amazon is getting about double the incentives to build there, that they are in Alexandria, VA.

      Is anyone really surprised that they chose New York and DC? Talk about the most obvious choice they could have made...

    • Richard Wolff did a good job of concisely making the points on just how bad a deal this is for New York and Virginia [youtube.com] (which are together funding over half of the costs of this project -- $5.5B versus Amazon's $5B according to the New York Times)—and all for an estimated 2,500 jobs in New York (I don't know how many jobs are projected for the Virginia site but I'm guessing it's comparable totaling around 5,000 jobs). Here's some of what he said:

      This is a shocking display. What they are calling a gover

  • Amazons need haircuts, too (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Shotgun ( 30919 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:43PM (#57644338)

    He is going to have a business with a large number of well paid workers right next door. Why would he be upset? Instead of protesting, he should clean his shop and get ready for the influx of new business.

    • Maybe he's worried it will be knocked down to build Scumazon HQ.

    • He's probably renting (Score:4, Insightful)

      by KalvinB ( 205500 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:31PM (#57644686) Homepage

      If he doesn't actually own the space he's in then with Amazon setting up shop, the lease payments are going to go up substantially to capture some of that sweet rich people money. He's going to have to decide whether his business can support the higher rent. If he decides he can't take the risk, the person who owns the building will find plenty of businesses that are willing to take the risk.

    • we don't need to be giving the richest man on earth free Helipads. He came to New York because one of his houses is nearby. He never intended to put it anywhere else.

      Invest in your workers (demand side) and the businesses will follow. They'll have to, because otherwise they won't get workers. America is where business wants to be because our military protects their ass(et)s. We're an incredibly safe and secure place to live.

      And as always, if they want to leave, fine. Go. Get out. Don't let the door

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

      He is going to have a business with a large number of well paid workers right next door. Why would he be upset? Instead of protesting, he should clean his shop and get ready for the influx of new business.

      It's more likely that Amazon will offer free haircuts as a perk, or most of those people will commute to work meaning they get haircuts near their house. Either way, his rent goes up but his clientele doesn't.

    • Re:Amazons need haircuts, too (Score:5, Interesting)

      by CodeInspired ( 896780 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @04:47PM (#57644806)
      This reminds me of the Californians who sold their properties for 10x, 20x, 100x investment and moved to Arizona. As they sit beside their pools, drinking their fine wine, enjoying their financially stress-free lives, they reflect on how they once had a locally owned, mediocre coffee shop that was paradise. The charter schools their kids now go to cannot compare to the raw, cash-strapped public schools they previously attended. Escalating their status from average neighbor to Country Club Elite, they mourn the good old days when times were tough and they didn't have a landscaper. Damn those Silicon Valley companies moving in!! Ahh yes... the struggles of wining the real-estate lottery.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jbn-o ( 555068 )

        I'm noticing a lack of numbers in your claim. How many people experienced this?

        • Pretty much anyone who bought a house in the 70's, 80's or 90's. My grandfather bought his in the early 70's for 75k. It is now worth 12 times that. He could easily sell it, pay the sales taxes and what not, and be left with 400-500k. In most states, you can just buy a damm near mansion with acreage outright with cash, for that amount.

          Multiple states bitch about Californians doing this, cashing out of California and setting themselves up for retirement as virtual kings (Oregon, Washington, Colorado, parts o

  • Gotta love the irony of the same folks who shit on Trump for cutting corporations a modest tax break going all out rolling out the red carpet to give money to Amazon... and then ignoring their constituency when they realize what happened.

  • Where does this wealth come from that you are investing? The areas Amazon is moving into are actually zoned as economically distressed and needing re-investment incentives. So you can't just Invest if you are also not making money too.

    On the otherhand, I think Ocasio-hyphen got it right when she said Displacement is not urban renewal.

    That'a totally correct. But it'a the model that Seattle, and San Francisco and other areas use. You gentrify the ghetto. As the Bus Boy's famous song said "Oh Boy, There

    • LI City hasn't actually been "distressed" for 15 years or so. More like hipster/yupster paradise built on former toxics sites.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by PPH ( 736903 )

        More like hipster/yupster paradise

        The hipsters are mainly renters. So they won't be profiting from the increase in property values. In fact, they will be moving out.

        It's an upscale version of what light rail did in Seattle. Colored folks got pushed out by hipsters. But the hipsters think they define the culture of a place. And if they get pushed out, there will be hell to pay.

  • Jobs Not More Quality Of Life (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    It's very telling that Amerikuk politicians are all JOBS JOBS JOBS but never talk about your quality of life, time off work, and how little American workers get compared to even Canadians (nevermind a real people like Germany who universally get atleast THREE WEEKS PAID VACATION because theyre better than Americans.. lol!)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dk20 ( 914954 )

      As a Canadian who has lived and worked in both the US and Canada for many years, your statement about "even Canadians" is confusing.

      The only real substantial difference between the US vs CA that i was aware of was the shockingly low MAT leave, but otherwise things seem to be on par.

  • rant (Score:3)

    by zlives ( 2009072 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:48PM (#57644392)

    I don't know about the rest of the rant but
    "By the way, Amazon was coming here without all this money anyway"
    this part is true, other places offered more incentives but amazon moved there because of talent, so yeah they didn't need to throw the money.

  • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • It's fine to say "we don't want to entice that company to setting up shop" or even "they would come without the incentives, so we shouldn't offer the incentive," but not "we shouldn't be giving away money."

      I'm guessing you didn't read that article about 2 weeks ago that got some national attention about what a disaster Wisconsin's Foxxconn deal has been. Go read it. That pretty much qualifies as "giving away money". Best case estimates are that the Foxxconn plant, which as always with Foxxconn is already reduced in size and scope from what they originally promised to build, might be profitable by 2050. Maybe. There's some thought that Scott Walker lost his re-election bid as a direct result of the bad d

    • Tax "incentives" are the most insidious type of trickle down economics. The assumption is that without these "Job Creators" all labor would stop. Nothing could be further from the truth. Bezos was a right time/right place guy. He didn't build Amazon, the engineers did. Bezos is going to go where those engineers are. He has to. He couldn't build the company by himself. He's clever and well educated, but he's one man. There's only so much one man can do/learn.

      Instead of tax incentives we should be investi
    • ...for a city with underutilized housing stock and severe unemployment. But New York is packed and not hurting for jobs, there's no reason for them to bend over backwards to attract investment.

  • The argument is (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mobby_6kl ( 668092 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @03:57PM (#57644468)

    The argument is, I think, that the present value of Amazon and their employees' future investments, tax payments, and spending outweighs the incentive the city provides. So if they want more funding for schools and other stuff, well, that's how you get the money to do it. The calculations might be wrong, but I kind of doubt it, the HQ will be dumping a ton of money in to the local economy.

    • Re:The argument is (Score:4, Insightful)

      by smoot123 ( 1027084 ) on Wednesday November 14, 2018 @06:46PM (#57645644)

      The argument is, I think, that the present value of Amazon and their employees' future investments, tax payments, and spending outweighs the incentive the city provides.

      Yes, that's the argument. My understanding is it often turns out to be incorrect. It's hard to say for certain. The poster child tends to be sports stadiums. They often get subsidized and virtually never live up to their promises.

      I don't live in the Big Apple so I don't have a dog in this fight. What I object to is Amazon and other large developers getting special treatment. If the tax laws are good enough for normal businesses, then they should be appropriate for Amazon. I don't buy the argument that big deals are somehow special.

  • New York state collects 76 billion in revenue every year.

    The few million they're tossing Amazon to encourage development will be paid back far more with income taxes and all the other taxes the customers, employees, etc will be paying for the foreseeable future.

    Crooked politicians always blame a penny for collapsed bridges while they squander dollars. The citizens should be smarter than to let them get away with such nonsense.

  • The local government should be building out the underlying infrastructure and ensuring good schools and good housing opportunities. Residents and businesses would both flock to the area to take advantage of that instead of feeding the giant corporations tax breaks at the expense of residents, aka potential workers. Far too often the corporations move into an area collect the tax benefits then leave the area to move on and harvest more handouts. Developing economic opportunities should benefit the tax payers

  • New Yorkers Protest Amazon HQ2: 'We Should Be Investing in Housing ... Not in Helicopters'

    "Sorry, the libs you vote for already bent over for us."

    "Why are businesses fleeing cities? It can't be business-unfriendly politicies!"

    "Oh no, businesses are coming back. They should give lots more money for the honor of providing jobs and increasing the tax base!"

  • I suspect there's plenty of "investment in housing" going on in one of the hottest real estate markets in the world.

  • Yes. Because the JOBS such things bring in WON'T add money to the local economy and fuel investment in housing...

    I swear to God. Some people are so fucking stupid I just want to nuke the planet and be done with it...

  • They took 'er, wait, hold on, gave 'er jobs?

    Mid-sized markets never had a chance, this is known. And Bezos already owns mansions in DC (the Obama's are neighbors) and New York (Manhattan).

    https://www.cheatsheet.com/mon... [cheatsheet.com]

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