China Shuts Down Tens Of Thousands Of Factories In Widespread Pollution Crackdown (msn.com) 129
Buildings in China are shrouded in smog. From a report: China has implemented an unprecedented pollution crackdown in recent months as the country shuts down tens of thousands of factories. The effort is part of a national effort to address China's infamous pollution and has affected wide swaths of China's manufacturing sector. In total, it is estimated that 40 percent of all China's factories have been shut down at some point in order to be inspected by environmental bureau officials. As a result of these inspections over 80,000 factories have been hit with fines and criminal offenses as a result of their emissions. Safety officials have been moving from province to province (30 in total so far) shutting down factories as well as electricity and gas as they inspect the factories for meeting emissions requirements. This has resulted in late and missed orders, increased costs, and could ultimately result in higher prices on US shelves.
Resources! (Score:4, Insightful)
Who knew that cleanliness was a resource and you could use it up and run out?
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Who knew that cleanliness was a resource and you could use it up and run out?
Pff! Anyone who has been friends was Swamp Thing. He doesn't even wipe his feet before he enters your house, it's just swamp everywhere!
sounds good (Score:3)
sooner or later this had to happen...
Shut down before inspecting? (Score:4, Insightful)
40 percent of all China's factories have been shut down at some point in order to be inspected by environmental bureau officials.
Wouldn't you want to inspect them before you shut them down? I mean how bad can the emissions of a shut-down factory be?
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Not quite. A shutdown factory is taking unused space, and the emissions will go toward building the new one. In generally you are greener in referbing existing building. But you don't get the shiny new building.
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Wouldn't you want to inspect them before you shut them down?
Nope. You want to shut them down first. Then, the factory managers will be more accommodating as to your bribe money to let them re-open again.
Re:Shut down before inspecting? (Score:5, Insightful)
1) The inspector is an important government employee, not a low lever person who needs your pocket change
2) Accepting a bribe like that when the government is trying to do a special program of cleanup will result in the death penalty in China.
Bribes are more likely when the factory is running, because the inspector can just agree to say they inspected everything that was safe to inspect with the equipment running.
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Which seems to be exactly the reason why those inspectors are rotating across the country. It blocks the ability to set up contacts for bribes except at the higher levels. At lower levels, you do not know you fellow inspectors, you do not know the companies, you do not know who might be a different kind of government agent and corruption charges in China can have the death penalty. That bribe ends up being more expensive than cleaning up the mess, simply because of the risk is so high. Large corporations st
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Re: Shut down before inspecting? (Score:2)
I am no expert in Chinese law. Yet I suspect that many forms of bribery and corruption which are funny lawful in America remain serious crimes in China.
Happened to me (Score:2)
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This happened to me. Anyone have a $50,000 a year job in IT in Beijing?
No, sorry, the last offers I saw there were for something like million billion dollars for top developers.
Either you'll have to accept more pay, or look elsewhere.
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No but I can hook you up with a White Monkey gig in Shenzhen for US$5k. I can even throw in a sleeping mat in a storage room for free, as long as you're available weekends too.
Shakedown by officials, same old story (Score:2, Insightful)
Once they pay their "fines" they can go back to polluting. Unless they complain and a firing squad is needed. Happened before, will happen again. I have stories from the eighties of execs being executed for "bad business practices and polluting". Didn't stop then, will not stop now.
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Nothing ever changes, by which I'm actually only referring to people who believe that.
Think of the Children (Score:3, Insightful)
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"Seriously, the author is worried about spending a tiny bit more at Walmart because school kids in China now get cleaner air?"
You mean the school kids working in those factories?
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well they'll be in school and not working if the factory is shutdown dummy.
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You got to put your spin on it somehow.
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Seriously, the author is worried about spending a tiny bit more at Walmart because school kids in China now get cleaner air?
Yes, we all are. Otherwise they wouldn't have this problem in the first place. Their factories don't product for the local population. If the USA stopped buying Chinese and started spending more money on American then pollution in China would greatly reduce.
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Their factories don't product for the local population.
Complete hogwash. Chinese consumers buy the same crap as is sold here, from the same factory, and at local prices. Supply outstrips demand, so it obviously would be that way.
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Complete hogwash. Chinese consumers buy the same crap as is sold here
Yes they do. The difference is that the number of active people in the Chinese market are dwarfed by the number of internationals.
Supply outstrips demand
Kind of my point. You want to contribute to a cleaner China, stop being part of the demand. Factories will cease being viable.
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You might want to actually check numbers before you make bold statements about the Chinese having less "active people" in the Chinese market.
Don't just guess and spew when it comes to numbers, look them up. When you're getting greater than/less than wrong, you need some sort of remedial work, that is for sure.
Not everything that was true 20 years ago is still true today. 20 years ago China wasn't even the world's 2nd largest economy.
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Do you mean we should make America produce again? That sounds oddly familiar. Wasn't there some guy on TV all the time last year, flying all over the country, saying something like that? What ever happened to him? You know who I'm talking about. Old fat white guy wearing a red trucker hat and a cheap business suit. That guy. I hope he got his message across. We could use more people working in the USA.
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He got his message across. It wasn't the words coming out of his mouth in scripted campaign rallies, but the message has apparently come across loud and clear.
Re: Think of the Children (Score:2)
Smug people on the internet sure did hate that guy for having the temerity to suggest that working class people ought not starve and die in the streets. I wonder what happened to him?
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Seriously, the author is worried about spending a tiny bit more at Walmart because school kids in China now get cleaner air?
I infer that perhaps it was only especially cheap to manufacture in China because they were willing to fuck their environment in order to do it. Once industry is required to both pay for new emissions controls and to pay to clean up the existing damage, it will not be nearly so cheap to manufacture in China.
Throw nice helpings of industrial espionage and lack of respect for patents and trademarks, and it's even less cheap to manufacture there long-term. But then, corporate officers and boards of directors
The China conundrum (Score:2)
You can have cheap products, be the industrial center of the world, or have clean air. Pick any two.
It will be interesting to see how serious they are about this.
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I'll take 2 "clean air"s please
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China uses conundrums? I thought their favored technique was to throw baby girls down wells.
"and could ultimately result in higher prices" (Score:2)
ZOMG, higher prices!
And we still are arguing over whether corporate taxes have nay impact on prices.
Dell (Score:2)
Is this why Dell keeps delaying my order?
What about the iPhone X? ... (Score:2)
With all of the rumors related to issues sourcing the parts necessary for Apple's forthcoming iPhone X and the anticipated short supply at launch, this causes me to wonder: where does Apple assemble their iDevices, again?
(Spoiler... it's predominantly Foxconn, in China.)
Not higher prices, more efficient factories (Score:5, Interesting)
The thing is, those who have little knowledge of how China works fail to understand how patronage has allowed very inefficient factories to continue to exist.
Starting with the replacement of old WW I style mills and power systems based on coal, China has literally either forced them to be replaced with cogeneration coal plants that capture excess heat, allowing an old style to produce twice the power output with the same raw inputs. They closed down those which could not be retrofitted.
Now they are doing the same with many of the factories. New factory designs are far more efficient, and cheaper to operate, allowing far fewer raw inputs to produce valuable goods, and requiring far less power.
Which makes them more competitive, dropping prices, not raising them.
This is part of why the Western US, with high investment in renewable power and modern fabrication techniques, outcompetes the old style factories in other regions.
Does it cost? For a 2-5 year cycle, sure. But it drops your operating expenses and maintenance, and it lets you outcompete the fossil factories kept up with wire and tape.
Stop focusing on the short term quarterly results, and look to the operational cradle-to-grave results. Adapt or die.
Factory Shut Down (Score:1)
Re:You know your country sucks when.... (Score:5, Interesting)
They really aren't.
https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
You look at those pictures and think that it's amazing it was that bad, one day. It wasn't. It is that bad nearly all the time. It is a hellscape and it is killing them by the millions.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com... [huffingtonpost.com]
But they have acknowledged there is a problem and that steps need to be taken.
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Re:You know your country sucks when.... (Score:5, Informative)
China's main political push right now is preventing societal instability... the government is doing so with quite a heavy hand when it comes to politics with severe harassment of journalists, lawyers, and activists. One thing that has been a major source of unrest in the past is riots due to insufferable environmental conditions, so this would logically fit on the list of things to do towards quelling unrest. So it's part of a mixed bag from a moral perspective.
Despite a better commitment to renewables than the U.S has, China is playing catch-up and has a long way to close the gap in environmental protections... but hey, since we are currently backsliding at the federal level that makes catching up easier for them at least, I guess...
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China's main political push right now is preventing societal instability...
In contrast to the US, where identity politics are the norm and people are constantly barraged with how someone is keeping someone else down. China prospers while the US courts a second civil war.
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
How many of the US identity politics movements are bankrolled by the Chinese state? Supposedly we finance Falun Gong for the same reason - social destabilization of our geopolitical rival.
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Also, I'm puzzled by the moral perspective comment
I meant the good of environmental protection is in the same bag as the rest of the heavy handed policies. Also, though the end result on the environment is good, the means do matter, and in the past some environmental reforms have included death penalties and probably (not knowing of an example) corruption-tainted company takeovers.
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What those breathless stories about fast Chinese deployment of small renewables are missing is that any factory-built tech can be placed in service faster than site-built technologies. But then compare the feeble capacity factor of those fast-built windfields with, say, Three Gorges Dam.
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
This advertisement brought to you by Fukushima brand radioactive fish.
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When you have absolute dictatorial power you can accomplish many things. At a price.
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> When you have absolute dictatorial power you can accomplish many things. At a price.
And when you have two parties forever dominating elections, you don't need to accomplish anything -- you can even dismantle what the previous government has accomplished.
And, of course, charge a much steeper price for it...
Bullshit (Score:2)
Our democratic traditions are to be cherished and protected, not denigrated. China is a shit hole compared to the US.
I'll bet half of those factories are shut down simply because they compete with some princeling or are not owned by the right people. Factories that are owned by the powerful can get away with anything. Remember that China recently specifically derided the rule of law.
Have a look at Document Number 9.
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The funny thing about China is that when they want to solve the right problem they can do so effectively.
I've been reading elsewhere from people in China that the part that is really different now and shows their seriousness is turning off the gas and electricity. This prevents them hiding violations in places that are normally unsafe to inspect.
That would be basically impossible for western governments to achieve just for routine inspections.
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Los Angeles used to be like this... then we had the Clean Air Act and cleaned it up. (Of course, now Trump is dismantling the Clean Air Act so we'll be like China soon).
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(Of course, now Trump is dismantling the Clean Air Act so we'll be like China soon).
Right -- rolling back rules that have been in place for about 2 years is going to take us back to the air quality of the 50s.
If you weren't just tossing around baseless partisan rhetoric, I'd be really curious to hear the details of how you genuinely believe that's going to happen.
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Try 1963 and 1970... a little more than 2 years.
Re:You know your country sucks when.... (Score:4, Informative)
Try 1963 and 1970... a little more than 2 years.
Please. Here's the actual text from the executive order:
Sec. 3. Rescission of Certain Energy and Climate-Related Presidential and Regulatory Actions. (a) The following Presidential actions are hereby revoked:
(i) Executive Order 13653 of November 1, 2013 (Preparing the United States for the Impacts of Climate Change);
(ii) The Presidential Memorandum of June 25, 2013 (Power Sector Carbon Pollution Standards);
(iii) The Presidential Memorandum of November 3, 2015 (Mitigating Impacts on Natural Resources from Development and Encouraging Related Private Investment); and
(iv) The Presidential Memorandum of September 21, 2016 (Climate Change and National Security).
Your turn if you have an actual source that actually says stuff from 1963 and 1970 is going away.
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
If you think it will stop there, you are very naive.
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In other words, there was no basis for your original post other than you meeting Chicken Little for drinks tonight. Hardly a surprise.
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The EPA can revoke all it's rules, fire everyone, and close it's doors forever and I don't expect air to get as bad as China. That's because each state has it's own laws on air quality. If you think that the states have to allow China levels of pollution because Trump, or some future POTUS, says they have to then let's talk about just how far federal law can go. There's 30 states giving the federal government the middle finger on marijuana laws. Sanctuary city/state laws and rules means the federal gove
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Here's a few more instances:
The chemical, perfluorooctanoic acid, or PFOA, has been linked to kidney
cancer, birth defects, immune system disorders and other serious health problems.
So scientists and administrators in the E.P.A.’s Office of Water were alarmed in
late May when a top Trump administration appointee insisted upon the rewriting of
a rule to make it harder to track the health consequences of the chemical, and
therefore regulate it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1... [nytimes.com]
In the weeks before the Environ
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1 [nytimes.com]...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/0 [nytimes.com]...
How many more instances until we call this a trend?
The Gray Lady issuing anti-Trump screeds isn't a "trend" -- it's a way of life.
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
https://www.scientificamerican... [scientificamerican.com]
Here's another act to pollute the air and cost consumers $10.3 billion a year.
See a pattern yet?
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See a pattern yet?
Yes, yes I do. I see a pattern of you making histrionic allegations that (a) our air quality is going to become like China's, because (b) Trump is "dismantling" the 1963 and 1970 Clean Air acts, and then when asked for the basis of those allegations providing a spray of random links that don't even pretend to support your claims.
I see one of two choices: either critical thinking is tough for you and so you honestly don't understand how citing an article about cost recovery for coal and nuclear plants needn
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
Which part of "forcing people to pay $10 billion a year to burn more polluting coal don't you understand?"
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Which part of "forcing people to pay $10 billion a year to burn more polluting coal don't you understand?"
Pro tip: when using quotation marks, it's usually considered sporting to put them around the actual words you're quoting. The most charitable way to characterize your rewrite of your original statement would be a paraphrase. Using quotation marks around a paraphrase is misleading at best.
Moving past that, I'll patiently repeat, one more time, that your article says nothing about rolling back anything in the 1963 and/or 1970 Clean Air Acts (or, as you put it, "dismantling" them). In fact, other than a to
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
So, what makes you think Trump doesn't want to dismantle the Clean Air Act?
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
A few more references for you to try to explain away... (It helps if you wave your arms)
https://thinkprogress.org/trum... [thinkprogress.org]
https://thinkprogress.org/comm... [thinkprogress.org]
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So let's take stock: the trollish comment braying ridiculous partisan talking points is modded insightful; the comment asking for the basis of the first comment is modded troll.
The lunatics are officially running the Slashdot asylum.
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Los Angeles used to be like this... then we had the Clean Air Act and cleaned it up. (Of course, now Trump is dismantling the Clean Air Act so we'll be like China soon).
I grew up in LA in the 70's. It was really bad. It was never like this.
And while Trump is doing his best to make things horrible, California remembers and won't roll back their own requirements.
But not as bad as Bejing today. (Score:2)
LA, at its worst, was an order of magnitude better. Largely because of climate.
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You were exceedingly lucky in your timing and or location.
Re: But not as bad as Bejing today. (Score:2)
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He's describing really shitty air pollution and you call him lucky?
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
... no, he's describing something that is really shitty but much better than it usually is. I'm calling that lucky.
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Yeah, some people might get the idea that China is doing more than we are because of this. The thing is, the USA doesn't need to "shut down factories" because the EPA has been a thing since the 1970s and *most* of the regulations are followed. It's less dramatic, but it's more effective.
I'm near the recent NorCal fires, and for just a few days we had air quality similar to Beijing. It's unfathomable to me that people live like that for a significant fraction of an entire year.
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
We have hardly any factories left to shut down if we wanted to. It's easy to have cleaner air when your heaviest industry is telemarketing.
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Myth. China recently reached *parity* with US manufacturing.
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Obvious bullshit. Sorry.
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Edit Wikipedia then and see how long it lasts then [wikipedia.org]. The article says China surpassed the US in 2010, which to me is "fairly recent" when we're on the scale of nations and their manufacturing capability. Other sources claim that US manufacturing *cost* is now equal to China's, probably due to us being more productive and other economic factors. Even if we're a solid no. 2 as opposed to no 1 these days, the "nothing is made here any more" meme really is mostly myth. Sure, iPhones, blah, blah; but that's
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
Is Wikipedia your source of "truth"? Even when the assertion contradicts what is obvious to everyone?
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You really don't want to give this up, do you? Just to play devil's advocate, I think the myth stems from the fact that consumers are more likely to be exposed directly to Chinese goods. ie, if manufacturing is only "small appliances sold at Wal Mart" then you're right; but that's not all manufacturing. Manufacturing encompasses a much broader sector--things such as oil rigs, specialized heavy machinery, and defense related items to which the consumer is not exposed. On a dollar basis though, the most e
Re: You know your country sucks when.... (Score:2)
Language is the beginning and the end of political thought.
My source is not *curated* at all. It is lived experience, what I see with my own eyes.
"Quick get out, the building is on fire!"
"I'm not worried. The fire alarm is not ringing."
"Dude, look at the flames and smoke - the room we're in is burning!"
"But the fire alarm isn't ringing."
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Also, if you believe that, you'll also believe the sky is plaid and water is dry.
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...you don't have 80,000 factories to inspect/shutdown in the first place ;-)
Re:You know your country sucks when.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Putting America First, means being last globally.
China putting these investments in may cause higher prices for their goods in the short term. However showing environmental consciousness could pay off in the long run. With Many EU countries also getting concerned about the environmental impact of its whole supply chain, China may be a better choice. Causing America to Sadly be left behind, having to change only after it is too late, and would be difficult to gain a food hold in the market they have loss.
The US economy needs more customers not lower costs to grow. Having Trump in the office only means other leaders will be able to be the grownup in the room and push their agenda.
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Until the current fad passes and America is still able to produce.
Re:Expect prices to rise (Score:4, Insightful)
Plot twist: massive disparity in wealth distribution and gender imbalance brought on by the one child policy lead to massive social unrest by 2030. Entire house of cards comes tumbling down.
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The massive wealth disparity could lead to communist revolution.
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Punctuation was needed far more than a citation. (especially considering it's a prediction of things that may, or may not come to pass)
There is a wealth gap in china, which can lead to civil strife. There is a gender gap, which can also lead to social unrest.
How is the combination of millions (tens of millions!) of young men in a 'have not' situation, who also cannot settle down and have a family, a good thing for the long term societal stability? What do you do when the work force starts to age, and ther
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It takes time and money but production can definitely move out of China if needed.
Re: Expect prices to rise (Score:2)
I would be highly surprised if the Chinese Communist Party permits their industrial base to be packed up and shipped to their geopolitical rivals. CCP may bankroll American destroyers of industry (e.g. B. Clinton) but I don't believe they allow such capitalist degenerates to influence their domestic policy.
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6. Foreign nations tire of the air pollution blowing out of China and into their borders, as well as the obvious price fixing they've been doing to drive out competition, means Chinese imports are banned or have hefty tariffs imposed.
7. Competitive prices are restored and other nations develop manufacturing in a way that doesn't leave a dark cloud circling the globe.