OpenOffice.org 3.0 Wants to Compete with Outlook 464
jason writes "At the OpenOffice.org 2007 conference about a month ago there was a presentation on what to expect in the next major milestone for their Microsoft Office competitor. "The presentation mentions bundling Thunderbird with their Office Suite, and refers to it as an 'Outlook replacement.' This is all assuming that Thunderbird recently losing two of its main developers doesn't affect the decision, because I'm sure OpenOffice wants to ensure that Thunderbird will continue to progress before including it." This probably won't sway large corporations away from using Microsoft Office, but it could make it more intriguing for the smaller businesses that are looking to cut some costs."
Compete? (Score:5, Funny)
You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
The great thing about Office is all the damn pieces work together. Excel is friendly with Access, Access is friendly with Word, Everything is friendly with Outlook. To beat Office, you have to have an Office suite that works like that. Not just all the pieces in one package.
There is not one single thing in OO that doesn't have an OSS equivalent stand-alone application that is at least as good. Bundling a mail client with the rest of your apps doesn't suddenly make you competitive, especially when your whole user base could have already installed that mail client if they wanted it.
There are OSS projects that are actually making a push toward doing the things that Outlook does (like Kontact [kde.org]). But Thunderbird is still lagging behind Evolution imho, and neither of them play all that great with any of the groupware servers out there, open or closed.
I used to try and push OO on people, but I've completely lost faith in it. I keep thinking, maybe they'll get their crap together, but then they do stuff like this.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know exactly how you feel. I used to use Office 2000 since about 1999. Since then I have been waiting for Open Office to serve as an Microsoft Office replacement. What happened? I upgraded to Office 2007 a month ago. I as well have given up on OO. Maybe one day, but then I will be ready for retirement and won't care.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:4, Insightful)
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If you don't like OOO don't use it. If it fills your requirements then do so. Personally I have both OOO and Office 2007, but only use Office 2007 to open documents sent to me in that proprietary format and for Outlook, as I am used to OOO and it fulfils my requirements. I would love for there to be an alternative to Outlook - the only reason I use it is that Thunderbird won't sync with m
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
WRT to manuscripts I can't keep comments, styles, formating etc straight.
WRT to investing the OO spreadsheet is way to limited, and to extend the spreadsheet with custom functionality is absolutely painful! OOBasic bites, and their component architecture is anything but simple. OO extensions are a joke when compared to Microsoft Office.
So in the end OO is not usable except for extremely simple things. I am complaining because after eight years of using Microsoft Office 2000 OO is not close to the capabilities of 2000. Yet I have and use Office 2007, and that is the sad part.
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I routinely use OO.o Writer for manuscripts. I use GNU Cash for my investing, but I would be able to use OO.o Calc.
What does "keep straight" mean in this context. OO.o Writer has a perfectly usable style manager & it is easy to c
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:4, Informative)
Right.... GNU Cash is for investing... Right.... Ok, so I ask how am I supposed to calculate the price of an option based on its implied volatility with GNU Cash? Oops, you mean its not an investment tool? Or how about calculating the cost of a hedge where I buy X calls, and Y puts? Ooops...
OO.o writer is not usable for manuscripts because comments and edits get buggered up. If you want to write without edits, and comments, sure Writer is fine...
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Informative)
These examples are further trivial in Gnumeric, OO.o Calc, and nearly any other spreadsheet if you don't want to use pre-existing third-party tools. I fail to see any ingrained advantages of Excel for these scenarios, other than your personal familiarity for the tool. That's not an insignificant factor, but it underminds the universality that you try to imbue your personal gripes with.I use comments and change tracking (which is what I assume you mean by "edits") in OO.o Writer. They never get "buggered up" (whatever you mean by that). As before: the only downside with commenting in Writer is that you must either hover over the comments or see ALL comments in a separate pane, which is not as good as MS's interface that has the documents and comments side-by-side (and visually linked to the section they comment on). But OO.o Writer will be getting even this "real soon now."
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:4, Insightful)
What you're basically saying is this: You can't possibly use any tool but Word because you're attached to the exact implementation of two specific Word features. That doesn't mean that other tools are bad - it just means that you're inflexible.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
And what you're basically saying is this: "Your preferences are wrong, and it's because you're stupid." It's the classic Slashdot rebuttal, and it is often modded as insightful, but it's not.
I don't purport to know what someone else needs to do his/her job. When a guy says OO.o doesn't cut it, despite trying, I tend to believe him. What makes you think you know what he needs?
Personally, I used OO.o for a year (Writer, to be precise) in grad school because I wanted to get rid of pirated MS Office, and I didn't have the $125 for the student version, and besides, I wanted more than the student version had... Why, I don't know, since I only would have used Word at the time. Anyway, I got quite good at Writer, and there are some great features in there (predictive input!), but ultimately, I had to call it quits and buy the $100 volume license of MS Office from the school.
What were my problems?
OO.o tables do not save correctly to .doc. If I needed to work on the document elsewhere, or was collaborating with someone, they had to be reformatted every time.
Making tables is an arduous process in OO.o. And being that I use a lot of statistics in my writing, tables are abundant. Word table formatting is quick and easy, and you can get them to look exactly as you'd like in a number of different ways (this has always been the best part of MS software--any way you can think of doing something probably has a way to do it).
Indent sliders don't snap to sane intervals. This is in violation of the UI metaphor: Those sliders snapped on electric typewriters. Last time I complained about this on Slashdot some pompous ass told me I was too stupid to use styles so I'd better just stick with Word. Except, I did use styles, and I use them in Word, too, and those sliders are the easiest way to set the indent in Word--why the hell should I type everything in when there's a damn GUI slider there? Why doesn't the OO.o slider work right? You can't get the same indent twice. It's maddening.
I have to work with other people, and they don't know or want to learn OO.o. This obviously isn't a problem with the software, but it is a big problem with using it.
I finally decided that getting things done was more important than being different. And this is what it comes down to, really, with a lot of FOSS. There are a few things that are improved by the removal of the profit motive (video software that plays anything, PDF writers --utilities like that whose proprietary counterparts are too worried about making money to be any good), but major applications don't seem to benefit. FOSS requires people to learn something new that doesn't do as much and isn't as compatible with the rest of the world's software. And that's why uptake is slow. Not because people are stupid, but because they are smart enough to know it's not worth it for them to switch. Until OO.o is better and more compatible than MS Office, this will be the case, and people will stick to MS Office in droves.
I value supporting FOSS projects in theory, but at the end of the day, I have work to do, and OO.o doesn't cut it. And I say that as the world's leading expert on how to do my job and live my life. That ought to be a satisfying enough reason for anyone.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:4, Insightful)
People who spend a significant chunk of their time working in a given piece of software tend to get attached to the details of how it does things, regardless of the technical merit of those design decisions.
Your complaints about OO.o are a perfect example of this effect. "Indent sliders don't snap to sane intervals"? Clearly this isn't annoying the crap out of the OpenOffice developers (who have to use the program to write any number of internal documents), so it's not a major problem with using the program - so it must be an artifact of your learned workflow.
Now, having trouble unlearning that sort of workflow artifact is a real issue. OpenOffice really will suck for you until you've gotten used to the native workflow for every single task that you do. Let me clarify: Until a Microsoft Office user adapts to OpenOffice almost completely, Microsoft Office really will be marginally better for them.
None of this means anything but the simple fact that OpenOffice, being different from what you have the most experience with, is harder for you personally. You can't get any sort of objective data about other people using the program from a biased sample of one.
No, sometimes OOo really can be that painful. (Score:5, Interesting)
For me, the most painful thing that I've run into recently is partially due to the abysmal documentation that comes bundled with OOo and partially a clumsy implementation. The manuals that are located on the Website really used as the native help system. They are FAR better than the extremely limited and misleading information included in the help files. For example, compare and contrast the two sources for how to handle images.
Recently I was using OOo 2.2, then 2.3 to work on a short 30 page whitepaper (including the appendixes) for work. I needed to insert just two image files to illustrate a point I needed to make. This is a task I've done plenty of times and it's never as easy as it should be. This last time, for whatever reason, was more than usually painful.
It took me the better part of a couple of hours to place and size not only the images, but the frames that surrounded them. Time and again I'd click on the image and get just the image and not the frame that bounded it. I wouldn't notice, re-size or move the image, then wonder why I still wasn't getting the text to flow properly around it.
After much mucking around, I FINALLY got them both where I wanted them, then saved the file as a
No, this wasn't a PEBKAC problem. I double and triple checked saving the document in Office XP format. I even saved it as
To say I was pissed would be an understatement. Oh, sure, I could have exported the file as a
Besides, this is the first time that I can remember that OOo has failed me in such a fundamental way. Lord only knows why, because I sure don't. It does mean that there's no way that I can recommend OOo for even a pilot project here. This kind of basic functionality simply MUST work. First time, every time.
Will I open a trouble ticket with the OOo team? Maybe, if I can figure out a way to duplicate the problem in a file that's not full of company confidential information. This is a HUGE issue. I can't believe somebody didn't stumble across it during the beta cycles.
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Whenever you're working with non-native closed format export functionality, there *will* be incompatibilities. That's a fact of life that can't be changed. The fact that you've discovered a specific case (an image in a floating frame) where the export functionality is janky isn't a major issue, it's not even surprising.
When doing something one way is way harder than it seems like it should be you need to stop and try to see if there's a better way to do it. Maybe you don't really need the frame? Spacing ar
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OO does have weaknesses, that's true. But when we're dishonest about how significant those weaknesses are, and about which things are weaknesses versus simply being different from one specific other office suite then we risk wasting time on trivia and getting drawn into the unwinnable game of being an imperfect copy rather than a high quality piece of software
Re:No, sometimes OOo really can be that painful. (Score:5, Interesting)
I invite you to try it yourself. Just insert a picture from an image file using just the default settings. Go ahead, I'll wait.
....
Back yet? Good. Then you'll know that the default setting, and so far as I can tell the ONLY setting, for inserting an image from a file REQUIRES that it be wrapped in a floating frame with its own anchor. Please tell me, how the H E double hockey sticks am I supposed to explain the nuances of dealing with that to a company of 50,000 people?
Heh. Haha. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (wipes tears from eyes) Thanks, I needed a belly laugh. Oh, wait. You were serious? Well, let me explain in really small words, then:
It. Won't. Work. Satisfied?
No? Well, I guess I'll have to use somewhat bigger words and more complex concepts. I hope you can follow along.
First, what I tried to do was NOT some "weird combination of native layout elements", it was straight up insertion of a graphic image into a document. This is Word Processing 101, folks. Well, OK. Maybe Word Processing 201. It certainly isn't graduate level, pie in the sky sort of stuff. It's just day in, day out normal work.
Second, I work for a company with more than 50,000 employees. We don't look at pilot projects for desktop deployments of such a basic component unless we fully expect to deploy it across at least half the footprint. However, any such pilot MUST still be able to effectively trade files and data with the rest of the company, or the pilot will be deemed a failure by the people who can sign checks. We don't have the luxury of isolating small workgroups. Everything that we do is too interconnected.
Third, you may have noticed that I said I was working for a COMPANY, not a governmental agency. As such, we don't get to dictate what our customers and vendors use. Whatever they wish to use as a medium of communication, we have to adapt to. Now, granted, we spend metric boatloads of cash (that's a technical term, btw) on specialized communication applications and interfaces to do that for the more obscure stuff that our vendors want to use, and metric fleets of boatloads of cash (another technical term) for the more obscure stuff that our customers want to use. (Why the difference? Because the customers give us cash while the vendors expect us to give /them/ cash.)
However, if our theoretical and increasingly mythical pilot project is to stand any chance of success, the participating users absolutely /must/ be able to use their existing communications channels without modification. Asking vendors to make changes to /their/ ways of doing business just to accommodate us can make them cranky. Asking CUSTOMERs to make changes to /their/ ways of doing business just to accommodate us might make them look for someone else to give their money to. Therefore, if we can't produce documents that are at least somewhat close to what outside organizations expect, the pilot will be deemed a failure.
On a final note, you want to know what REALLY annoys me about this particular incident? I've done this sort of image insertion using OOo, then saving it as a .doc format for literally years and I've never seen this behavior before. What on earth got broken? And why on earth didn't anyone notice during the beta cycle??
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Sorry, but with Excel I have the following options: VBA (which in 2007 is actually pretty good), XLL (pain, but you get a
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Excel for investment? _you_ must be kidding (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Excel for investment? _you_ must be kidding (Score:5, Insightful)
Why am I interesting in this debate? Because I had to buy Office 2007! I was holding out for the longest time, hoping that OO would finally allow me to do what I want. The days of Office pro being less than an hourly rate is long gone, just like the dotcom bubble.
>You should not be using Excel at all. You should be using a proper financial modelling system connected to a relational database, e.g. Business Objects with various add ons. Again, for the level of investing that this necessitates, the cost is unimportant to you.
I advise that you actually look at the tools that investment banks use. They in fact use Excel! Sure there is back end stuff, but traders and quants like Excel because it lets them very quickly come up with ideas and strategies.
>Alternatively of course you are just someone playing at investing. In which case your opinion is not particularly valuable. Given how expensive professionals have been getting it so wrong lately, anyone who trusts the financial models of an amateur without access to proper business modelling tools and data...deserves to buy a share in this wonderful toll bridge I just bought that links England and Wales.
I find it amazing that instead of actually doing a constructive argument you mock me. I could just as easily mock you since you did not even know that professional traders use Excel. Are you a quant? Do you follow the market?
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Amazing! If I put $77.10 in a bank account every month for 850 months at %1 annual interest I'll have $95296.08, but if I just put $77.10 in my mattress for 850 months I'll have $100,000!!!
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I used to use hidden frames for comments in my documents. Reflowing/repagination in OOo works better than in M$Office, so I found the functionality (though bit awkward and not straightforward) yet performing better than M$Office counterpart.
As for styles and formating, I'm not sure what you refer to. OOo, unlike M$Office, can be configured to use only predefined styles from document.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Informative)
To use an example from a previous OpenOffice discussion, let's say I want to use OpenOffice to translate a text from Japanese into English. I bill 'per-character' in Japanese, so to determine how much to charge the client, I do a word count in OpenOffice. And the results given for english are correct, but the Japanese results are entirely wrong.
Copy and paste the same text into Word, and the word count works fine the first try.
Now, you're right, that technically I didn't *need* word count to complete this task. I could have manually counted through all the words. You also don't technically need a good outline view, since you can manually select and drag huge blocks of text around the document. You also don't technically need video support in Impress, because you can just tell the viewers to close their eyes and imagine what it might look like. So I guess in that sense you're technically correct.
That was ace (Score:3, Funny)
(Good comeback
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OOo creates documents, spreadsheets, presentations and drawings.
None of which are up there in terms of quality with what I can create using Office 2007.
It does so efficiently once you're familiar with it, often more efficiently than it's major competitors.
But then, pretty much anything is efficient when you're used to it. It takes extremely bad programming to end up with a system that you can't get used to, and Microsoft has the money to pump into usability studies to make sure that Office doesn't end up that way.
In spite of all this you're complaining, behaving like it whipped your dog. Why's that?
I didn't get that impression - I got the image of someone trying to promote a free software product, and then being told that instead of improvements to the e
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Because those of us who know what we're doing are tired of listening to the majority of the IT field that's made up of incompetent amateurs who don't know what they're doing with technology, don't know what a business needs to operate, and feel that their failings are the only way things can turn out. The fact of the matter is, Microsoft products are superior to the OSS products. Period. When you have something that
How About A Complete Office System (Score:5, Interesting)
How about a complete system?
Open Office System would include:
And, all of this would be compatible with MS Office, down to a UI switch that would allow the user to choose the MS style interface.
All of this would have MONO programmability for "macros". (Not the half-hearted programmability that MS offers, and sorry OO only pays lip service to.)
You do all of that, my org MIGHT think of switching.
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You are a complete troll, however for the benefit of anyone else reading, my experience with paid support for F/OSS products has been very solid. At worst, it is as good as most commercial product support. At best, I've had some of my support cases turned into direct product enhancements, some with patches availa
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
First, let me say that your experience with OO will depend on what you use it for. As I use it mostly for writing papers for publication in scientific journals, quick spreadsheet applications (usually for classroom illustrations), and for "powerpoint" presentations at conferences, it works just dandy for me.
I do have to respond to your comment that "There is not one single thing in OO that doesn't have an OSS equivalent stand-alone application that is at least as good." I like the concepts of KOffice, and Gnome Office, but KOffice really isn't as functional as OO in any way, shape or form. It used to open faster than OO, but recently, OO has taken just three seconds from click to start on my computer, so I can't complain about that. Gnome Office is not integrated. Abiword is great for very small documents of limited functionality, but is no where near the abilities of swriter. Gnumeric is arguably equal with scalc, but then it doesn't have the same sort of interapplication communication with documents as scalc shares with swriter. As a long time simpress user, I have yet to find either a problem with it interoperating with powerpoint, or another opensource program that holds a candle to it.
So to finish, you are probably right in that OpenOffice has a long way to go in matching every type of functionality as MS Office, but I still can't say it has any real competitors in the OSS world at the current time. [Note to KOffice users: I have seen quite an improvement in functionality over the last couple of years, but you all need another couple of Google Summers of Code to catch up. - No flames intended, it's just my humble opinion.]
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The problem I think, is that Open Office approaches things from the wrong end. Linux enjoys more success and prominence because it approached things from the server end, not the desktop end. MS OFfice is a bloated client application that uses bloated undocumented protocols to talk to bloated, buggy, undocumented server apps. Which server apps? Active (Craptive) Directory, Exchan
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I have recommended OO to many of the students (especially the lower-income ones who cannot afford the Microsoft procetag) in the high school I teach in, and there have been a few adoptees. Most, however, complain of the lack of working features... sadly, perhaps the most trivial of which is the default save as
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To most people there is no difference, unless they work for big companies.
The great thing about Office is all the damn pieces work together. Excel is friendly with Access, Access is friendly with Word, Everything is friendly with Outlook. To beat Office, you have to have an Office suite that works like that. Not just all t
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
Well der. The point, to spell it out more clearly, is that the people who are developing OpenOffice aren't coming up with features that big companies want, and big companies are the ones holding the majority of Office licenses.
I was rather under the impression that the integration of office components with each other and tightly with windows, while nice in theory, actually made it a horrible security threat. Applications that co-operated but existed wholly apart from the OS, other than running on it would be a good thing.
Not enough of a security threat to bother any of the hundreds of thousands of companies that have purchased it. But more seriously, macros are completely reined-in, Outlook restricts everything, IE7 has as many security features as Firefox and runs in a sandbox in Vista to boot. (It's not part of Office, but I figured someone would bring it up.) And, frankly, it's been years since anybody has seen a macro virus, or another virus that uses Office to spread, and so even if there is still some security threat to these products more-so than to OpenOffice (which frankly I doubt), there's a sense of calm in that area right now.
Speaking of security, Office does have a nice feature where you can encrypt sensitive files before sending them out of the office to prevent your data being read by nefarious third-parties. Does OpenOffice have anything of the sort? (I haven't used it in a few years, and their website is so horrible it doesn't even have a basic page describing the features of the product, nor does it have screenshots, or basically anything you'd want to see before downloading it.)
Openoffice is very nice MS Office has the edge on maturity, but I don't like the locked in nature of the document formats.
I can guarantee if you go to a professional writer and ask:
Which would you rather have?
A) An outline view where you can instantly re-order your work, including notes and references?
B) A slightly more open document format?
There isn't a single one who's going to answer B.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:4, Funny)
BAM! Hah! Disproved your entire post with one name. Extra points for me.
Re:You gotta be kidding. (Score:5, Informative)
WRT #1, version upgrades are a nightmare, and I've seen colleagues lose days of work because of file incompatabilities. I know that if you're *very* careful this won't happen, but you shouldn't have to worry about this. And I want reliable access to things I wrote 10 years ago.
#2: The last time I used Word (2003) for a serious project I used styles for different-level headers and so forth. Everything was auto-numbered and auto-formatted and I was pleased and thought to myself that maybe Word was finally usable. Then I inserted a table of contents and doing this stripped the numbering out of all the headings and eliminated all of my bulleted and numbered lists! I simply couldn't believe it. The truth is that the only people I know *personally* who are happy with Word are people who do not use it's features very deeply. There appear to be plenty of people who use Word in a serious way and who are are happy, but I have yet to meet one personally. (And yes, I am at a big university and I am know lots of people
So what do I use? LaTeX and Emacs. I adopted them both specifically when writing my book because I didn't trust Word. It took a long time to become comfortable with both, but it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. My book is published using TeX and I can use the compositor's files to revise the book. I find this works incredibly well.
I always tell PhD students: you are going to a professional writer so use professional writer's tools: LaTeX and BibTeX. (I *never* recommend Emacs, though I personally love it.)
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Maybe open source programmers should spend more time getting their programs to do X instead of just telling people "you shouldn't be doing X at all." Yes, Word shouldn't (according to some weird moral code in your head) be used to write a novel, that doesn't change the fact that it *is* used to write novels. And Excel shouldn't (according to th
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Can you point me to an alternative to OO Write? I love the ease of creating formulas in OO Write, and the way the Macro system works. But if you show me a more stable opensource application that can do "at least as good", I am ready to convert.
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There are also an ungodly number of third party applications and plug-ins that more or less seamlesly integrate with Office or are designed for use within an Office environment.
Small businesses are already using OOo and Tbird (Score:2, Insightful)
Changing the names of the various apps in OOo would have a bigger effect. The number of times I've had someone think that Calc was windows calculator replacement, rather than a spreadsheet is far too high.
Exchange (Score:5, Insightful)
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Like Microsoft Entourage? Oh wait...
(Yeah, to be fair, Entourage 2008 will have supposedly native MAPI exchange support and not webdav, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm just point out that "offical" Microsft "Exchange" application Engourage 2004 on the Mac only has webdav support unlike its brother Outlook 2003)
How will it improve Thunderbird or OOo? (Score:5, Interesting)
One could say the same about any office product, but at the very least they share the "Recent Documents" and can launch each other's applications (which is quite a nifty side-benefit). I'm not seeing even that advantage to the Thunderbird bundling. Although I'm sure it will be useful for those not knowledgeable enough to be able to install both separately.
Thunderbird would be a great idea (Score:2)
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i have been waiting patiently for sunbird to be released.
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And Here is Where the Math Does Not Add Up (Score:2)
That's like saying. Heck I have a car that drives on Hydrogen, but the problem is that there are no Hydrogen gas stations anywhere. Gee, that sort of defeats the purpose no?
>Thankfully the code is modular (e.g. it already has handlers for nntp, imap, pop3) so it should be quite possible to write the code.
That's like saying. Heck a hydrogen car is not a problem, you just need to creat
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So yes, by "lots of other servers available" you mean "up to two, if Novell is still selling theirs."
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Visio would be better (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I think it'd be better to focus on something like a Visio replacement. Use Dia as a starting point, etc.
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I believe MDaemon [mdaemon.com] can serve as an Exchange replacement with their Connector plug-in, although I've not personally used it for that. MDaemon is hardly an open source product (although it is one of the better commercial offerings out there) but it does go to show that Exchange compatibility is not an impossible goal. If that's what you want.
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That replaces the SMTP transport part of Exchange. How about the group directory and the shared calendar support?
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It's a drop-in replacement for about 1/10th of the features Exchange has.
Try not to tell us about drop-in replacements for products until you have at least a vague idea of what that product does. Have you even used Outlook?
I don't know... (Score:2, Insightful)
New Chart Engine, finally! (Score:2)
Exchange (Score:2)
Re:Exchange (Score:5, Insightful)
Outlook's shared calendar integration, while being a minor thing to most geeks, is one of the major features which get Exchange installed in businesses.
And Exchange requires Active Directory, which requires a domain driven by Windows Server rather than Samba, so even if you weren't planning to before, you may as well authenticate other systems through that. Then people start looking at other things like Sharepoint and third-party applications which expect a Windows domain, and before you know it you've got an entire infrastructure built around Windows.
This, ladies and gentlemen, is how Windows became a popular server platform in places where you might otherwise expect to see Unix, Netware or OpenVMS.
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And Exchange requires Active Directory, which requires a domain driven by Windows Server rather than Samba, so even if you weren't planning to before, you may as well authenticate other systems through that.
Not all that impossible to do - your auth can come through AD's LDAP connector, and if rest can be done like Evolution does... take scrapes off of the OWA service on Exchange.
Everyone makes it sound like Echange and AD are these magic thingies that no one will ever plug into. While I'll never claim it to be perfectly easy (and MSFT does their damndest to insure that), it certainly isn't impossible.
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But I keep on hearing of stories like "OpenOffice volunteers believe their product can beat Microsoft on its home ground by including an email client" and all they do is demonstrate that the people who make these packaging decisions and think Outlook is used as nothing more than an email client have spent zero time working in the r
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http://www.zimbra.com/ [zimbra.com]
sun and thunderbird (Score:2)
Not what we want (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what they should be concentrating on:
1) Faster. Fast loading, faster opening documents, faster saving documents, faster menu response.
2) Smaller. Higher efficiency. Smaller downloads.
3) More stable. Better code. Less crashing.
4) More compatible. With more types of files (for example, docx, wp, svg)
5) Better documented. End user docs, help, and developer docs.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It was once posted here on /. (I can't find the post - it was months ago) that FOSS developers write code for themselves not for the end user. Then I see an article about a FOSS project trying to compete with MS.
I guess the guy who originally posted that comment meant to say that some FOSS developers write code for themselves and not for the users.
Anyway, my point is that I'm not so sure that every FOSS project is really that interested in
Re: (Score:2)
I don't have much experience with Sun software, but I can guarantee that anything IBM makes intended for the end user is going to suck, and it's going to suck hard. This is the company that sells Lotus Notes to their customers, and tells them with a straight face that it's better than Outlook. IBM knows nothing about usability or giving people wh
Re:Not what we want (Score:5, Insightful)
2) This probably is desirable, although the last time I downloaded it took about 5 minutes. For those without superfast broadband connections, a smaller package would be nice.
3) I haven't had crashing problems with OpenOffice in two or three years. At this point, it just works.
4) Docx is theoretically supported by Novell's OpenOffice, but I've heard bad things there. I suspect that since it is theoretically "open", that OpenOffice will support it sooner or later. As a former WP fan, I would also like this support so that I can import my dissertation. Finally, I'm also with you on SVG.
5) The documentation does leave much to be desired, although it's getting better by leaps and bounds. The really key issue here is that the OO.org website sucks. I'll be the first to sing the praises of the program, but their web site looks bad, and is poorly organized. Even when you know what you are looking for, you can't necessarily find it unless you have inside information.
Wrong prority! (Score:5, Insightful)
How about first finish cleaning up the OOo code?
Then make Impress make slides look nice! Graphics output is so ugly I have to be ashamed when I use Impress, drawings in Powerpoint look so much nicer. Why cant they make good anti-aliasing of curves? What is really stupid is that when I export my slides as pdf they look really nice! Oh boy... but no, first they want to add a mail software into an already really slow office suite, THANK YOU!
Client side isnt the issue (Score:2)
I hope this is a first step towards increasing.... (Score:2)
But somehow I doubt it.
Thunderbird has calendar? (Score:3, Insightful)
If not its replacing Outlook express, not outlook. And there are tons of decent competitors at that level now.
Re:Thunderbird has calendar? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Thunderbird has calendar? (Score:4, Informative)
But both evolution and kontact have their issues. Id like to see something like kolab become useable for the server side to go with them. ( citadel is close, but stil quirky )
Good luck competnig with OUTLOOK (Score:2, Insightful)
OO.o Exchange Client? (Score:2)
Because there are several GPL projects out there working on replacing Exchange with something running (much better) on Linux. Their main problem is the Outlook/Exchange protocol. If OO.o offers t
No real competition (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is very simple, when it comes to using Operating Systems there is very effective competition to Windows, namely Unix, Linux (and its many variations), BSD and MAC OS. While many of these systems are low cost to own, they do provide Microsoft with an incentive to provide a better operating system.
However, Microsoft Office has no real competition. Some people will say "but what about Open Office", but the problem is that while it may be free, there is no incentive for anybody to develop program other than for the simple joy of it. Unfortunately developing a office tool today is not like developing an operating system, as you have to offer dictionaries, grammar tools, paper formatting and tool integration to support every country in every region of the world; something you either buy or pay for a lot of work to be done. The problem is that the commercial alternatives to Microsoft Office have all but died out (Word Perfect etc..), hence the market share for Microsoft Office is probably greater than that of Windows.
The solution is that somebody needs to take Microsoft on where it hurts, i.e. offer a proper Office suite that costs less than Office. Unfortunately the only company that is any position to do this is Apple, but having been hurt by Microsoft when Explorer was withdrawn for Mac OS after Apple launched Safari, I doubt whether they would even attempt to tackle this problem as Mac without Office would be a problem for interoperability with documents in the future. There is of course Star Office, but that is just a commercial version of Open Office.
So the solution is that we get total bloatware and zero innovation. While I have not used Office 2007 yet, I suppose that like 2000, XP and 2003 there is little innovation over 97, which was actually quite a good piece of software.
For your information, I do use Thunderbird as my home email client along with Open Office on my Home PC. But believe me, if I was running a small business, I would have no option but to pay the "Microsoft tax", even if I was not using Windows.
I personally think that the only reason that Microsoft does not sell Office as part of the operating system (which for many people it could be described as, especially when it comes to Outlook) is that not only do they make most of their money from Office, but if they did they would suddenly find being themselves being prosecuted for anti-trust by the EU and US.
Re: (Score:2)
You should try it. I seriously think they've broken new ground with 2007; usabiity is increased dramatically. And 2003 introduced the new note-taking tools and online collaboration that's pretty slick.
Of course, that's kind of irrelevant to this discussion, as OpenOffice still doe
Yeah, outlook (Score:4, Informative)
People are
The MS Office universe is as successful as it is because of the following:
- Word, Excel and PowerPoint are a "classic office suite" and are nicely integrated with each other
- Outlook integrates mail, contacts and calendars with a server (Exchange) and is interacts nicely with the other Office apps
- Access is a crappy database which causes more problems than it solves. Not much to see here. Most people would be better off with excel sheets they mail to each other.
The Status of OpenOffice is IMHO the following:
- Writer is pretty much equivalent to Word. Some things are actually nicer, others are worse. It definitely needs some polish though (there are hundreds of minor nuisances). And they should definitely get rid of the retarded light bulb shaped assistant. It's even more stupid than clippy, but at least it's not animated.
- Calc is close to Excel, but not as close as Writer is to Word. It's usable for most things Excel is used for, but not a replacement yet.
- Impress sucks. It's not even close to PowerPoint. It's usable for presentations consisting of bulleted lists, but if you want anything more, oh my.
- Base vs Access - I have almost no experience with Base, so I can't say much about this. But the concept is the same as Access, so I guess it sucks at least as much.
- There is no replacement for Outlook.
- The integration between the individual programs is *years* behind what MS Office has to offer.
What they *should* do instead of trying to push Thunderbird as "Outlook replacement" is this:
- Polish Writer some more. I use Writer almost daily and have the feeling that it has the potential to be *better* than Word in most tasks. They should *not* try to be bug-by-bug, stupid-feature-by-stupid-feature compatible to Word; people who need that kind of compatibility are not going to switch anyway. Maybe bring it a bit closer to a DTP program (more and more exact controls for layouting and styling, especially for longer and/or structured documents).
- Work a bit on Calc. I mainly use both Excel and Calc for things such as "making lists" or "summing numbers" or maybe to write a small macro, so I don't really care.
- Do something *really cool* with Impress. PowerPoint is far from perfect and presentations are getting more and more important every day. I know I can do "everything" using LaTeX and Beamer, but sometimes you just want to do something *quickly*. And Impress disappoints me every time.
- Get rid of Base. Both Access and Base are crappy concepts anyway. Databases should run on a server.
Then they could still write an Exchange replacement, and only *then* Outlook can be truly replaced.
Just my 2 cents.
does OO handle MSWord bullets yet? (Score:2)
Every few months I download the latest and greatest OO, and try to load up a random MSWord file. I have never seen OO handle bullets correctly. And this is for MSWord files created on a whole host of Windows and OSX machines, probably with different locale settings, and also using a variety of MSWord releases.
Not one single time has OO represented bullets correctly as, well, bullets.
So, this is a question to my
home and academic users dont care about outlook (Score:2)
webmail clients are "good enough"
I dont understand this obsession about overtaking microsoft office in businesses.
If you ask what most people would like to see in Openoffice.
Speed is not the problem for most openoffice users. On my reasonably new desktop writer opens within 3 seconds.
1) Desktop/Web publishing (a replacement for Publisher) the most common activi
you little beauty! (Score:4, Informative)
Although, the choice of Thunderbird is a little annoying. I was having a chat not that long ago (actually the day OO 2.3 came out) with a friend and we both came to the conclusion we both use ms office because the number 1 thing we use is outlook.
Now, if OO 3 had a viable outlook alternative (notice the use of the word viable) then i'd never have to fire up outlook ever again. OF course, by viable i mean something that has at least the calender - i use evolution at work with exchange and it works "ok" when its not crashing, but if OO had its eyes on thunderbird and upping its functionality levels then more power to them i say!. My life would be complete!
I do use t-bird at home for everything, but its so hard to do that in a job given that lack of (useful) calendering. Now, evolutions outlook (owa) connector may be quite annoying really but there is work underway for a real connector to exchange for evolution and if that library (http://sourceforge.net/projects/openchange/) could be used in t-bird - then brilliant!.
Im of course getting ahead of myself, one step at a time eh?
Ill tell you what we want from Openoffice as outlo (Score:3, Interesting)
first, we need scheduleable TASKS, and we need them to be linkable with EMAILS and emails be THREADED, and also tasks linkable with events (meetings and whatnot) AND CONTACTS (emails and cards).
current thunderbird with lightning addon doesnt cut it unfortunately, it just can function as a "reminder" service, not a complete scheduler/planner/organizer/communication client.
Living it, mostly loving it (Score:5, Interesting)
My main tasks are product planning, design, presentations, and documentation for software projects. For these tasks, Open Office is fine - no complaints about missing pieces, and the diagram editor in Open Office is sufficiently better than the diagram editor in MSOffice as to not require a direct replacement for Visio (though Dia is pretty good if you need something Visio-like).
Thunderbird isn't going to make Exchange Server users happy, but that isn't the point. If you use a hosted mail service, as many small companies do, and if you use a shared hosted calendar, Thunderbird, plus a few plug-ins, especially Lightning, is an adequate replacement for Outlook in that context. All, or almost all the functions of Exchange Server and Outlook have equivalents in Thunderbird plus plug-ins.
A year ago, when I started using Thunderbird, it was with some reservations: No Plaxo sync, iffy Webmail integration, Lightning was shakey, etc. In the past year I have found enough plug-ins to fill those gaps. As of now, people using Outlook without an Exchange Server would be better served by Thunderbird.
Some people depend on particular features of the Office/Exchange combination, and that can't be helped, but the 80% that use that software to edit documents and read mail can switch without pain.
For many organizations, the fact they can do all this without buying software, signing up for maintenance plans, and subjecting their budget to the continuous pressure on commercial software vendors to lock in and up-sell, is enough to make the OSS alternative more attractive.
Not convinced? You don't have to be. You probably have an obsolete PC laying around. Put a Linux distro on it and try it.
ridiculous (Score:3, Insightful)
OpenOffice is a good stop-gap replacement for people wed to old paradigms, and I'm glad its' there, but people: get over it.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Anyone who doesnt know that uses digg.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)