Why Doesn't Microsoft Have A Cult Religion? 535
rs232 writes "'Apple has one. So does the Java community, Oracle, IBM, and Google. Lord knows anyone who uses Linux or free and open source software is dedicated to spreading the gospel of St. Linus Torvalds and St. Richard Stallman. But does anyone really worship the Gods of Redmond?' While many Microsoft employees are pumped to work there, article author Michael Singer explores why even enthusiastic Microsoft-watchers acknowledge that customers and product developers are unenthusiastic about the software giant. He theorizes that it comes down to passion: Microsoft lost that a long time ago, he says, and so passionate people gravitate to other projects and products."
by definition (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of the definition of "cult" is (from Wikipedia): ..., term designating a cohesive group of people..., devoted to
beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture or society
considers to be outside the mainstream . In that
context it would seem self-fulfilling Microsoft not have a
cult... like it or not (I don't), Microsoft is mainstream.
As for the question,
I don't recall anyone ever worshipping the GoR. Heck I even worked there, and it was about being smart, it was about being competitive, but I don't ever remember it about being about customers. Microsoft's idea about good products has typically been:These attributes are hostile for creating cult followings, there is hardly anything there -- just a juggernaut of an industry bully.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:by definition (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
Re:by definition (Score:5, Funny)
At the risk of sounding trollish... (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't just about tech fanboys, but a more general phenomenon. You don't get many zealots when you're the one religion, you get them when it's 12 apostles vs the whole world. When it's the mainstream religion _and_ under no credible threat, you just get sheep and wolves in sheep skin. To get people all worked up there has to be a threat, a battle against all odds, where they're the few saving the world from a(n imaginary) threat it doesn't even acknowledge.
You can see that in Christianity too. Most of the spark it retained past a point was not because it was already the winner, but because it fragmented and ended up its own enemy. Arians vs Catholics vs Nestorians, Orthodox vs Catholic, Catholic vs Cathar, Catholic vs Protestant, and protestant factions against each other. That's what got people rallying to be the bleating champions of it: the credible us-vs-them setup, where "them" might just win if someone doesn't gather a (self-)righteous mob against it. When it didn't have such a challenger, it just ended up a court intrigues game where noone really gave a damn about the church. And occasionally it had to invent its own challenge, e.g., the Crusades.
It may sound like rehashing your first paragraph, but it's not. The definition of cult you give, is pretty much cult as opposed to religion. You're a cult if you're non-mainstream, you're a religion if it's mainstream. That's really all that that definition says.
But look at it this way: all mainstream religions got there by first being a cult. You don't get a religion directly formed around the mainstream thing in the first place. If something is already the undisputed 800 pound gorilla without a credible challenger, it already lost the chance of getting its own army of zealots. That's what I'm saying.
And Microsoft simply happens to be at that point, really. Apple is an underdog, it gets zealots. AMD used to be a major underdog, and it had some very rabid zealots, but then it became mainstream and now noone cares. Intel was always the big dog in CPUs, and it pretty much never really had zealots, it at most had some mild fans. IBM didn't use to have zealots either as long as it was _the_ big gorilla. Microsot is _the_ big gorilla and it has no zealots. Whop-de-do, big surprise there.
Re:At the risk of sounding trollish... (Score:5, Interesting)
Being an underdog might inspire some people to become devoted to something, but the big dogs have doting fans as well. Just not Microsoft.
Re:Life Under the Dominant Cult. (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, and kudos on thinking up "winDOS" and "M$" -- BRILLIANT!! Man, that really shows those bastards whos boss!
Re:Life Under the Dominant Cult. (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The derision/sarcasm is real though
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Excel might be an exception as its interface at least used to be considered very good.
2 years ago at least one HCI researcher at kth.se admired Excel wrt her field.
I am using OO Spreadsheet nowadays as it is good enough and comes with Ubuntu, but it is still not as good as Excel was 10 years ago.
But then, I guess, 10 years ago there existed more of a Microsoft cult.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I haven't tried the latest version, but at least up until now, Word has been a usability nightmare, and since it stopped getting more useful and powerful 10 years ago, there's been nothing but but bloat added to it since. A bunch of tick marks on some marketing drone
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, as a matter of fact, Windows back when it used DOS as a kernel was considered an ugly kludge. WinNT has a rather nice well formed kernel, and I do indeed know people who are fans of it!
I also know people who hate the NT kernel and love Unix-ish kernels, and people who hate Unix-ish kernels.
Now the APIs that are built on top of the kernel, yah, that is very ugly at times, but you are comparing an API that was largely designed in the 80's and early 90's to
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Solaris.
Mac OS X.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Mac OS X.
You can use case-sensitive HFS+ too.
Re:Life Under the Dominant Cult. (Score:5, Informative)
ZFS on Solaris10
"How 'bout any Unix that provides transactional file system behavior?"
ZFS on Solaris10, again
"Alternate streams/extended attributes that can be read and written as files?"
Do you work for Sun or something? ZFS... it does that.
"How many versions of Unix have case insensitive file systems? (Personally, I feel that case sensitive file systems should be considered a dated practice.)"
All of them can use FAT32, but case-sensitivity is eminently useful, and only ancient operating systems ignore case, so we keep it.
All that, plus it's open-source
Re:Life Under the Dominant Cult. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Life Under the Dominant Cult. (Score:5, Informative)
For writing: None, since it is a pretty bad idea with regard to performance, fragmentation and reliability. For reading, there are several. One is used by Knoppix for example. Also note that the Linux kernel is usually loaded in compressed form.
How 'bout any Unix that provides transactional file system behavior?
Again a very bad idea. If you need that, use a database, not a filesystem.
Alternate streams/extended attributes that can be read and written as files?
And again, a very bad idea. In fact extended attributes are a bad idea, since they break compatibility.
How many versions of Unix have case insensitive file systems? (Personally, I feel that case sensitive file systems should be considered a dated practice.)
So the filesystem should understand case semantics? Very, very bad idea. Especially if you allow Unicode filenames.
I think these features were though about by the Unix and Linux crowd numerous times and rejected every time because they are dangerous and break more than they fix.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Really? Does it support writing?
I can't think of a less mainstream idea. Thanks, you made my day.
I bet if you carried out a survey of users you would find that case insensitivity is *exactly* mainstream.
For added evidence, I point you to OS X, which despite having some of its roots in Unix, still keeps case insensitivity by defeault.
Re:by definition (Score:4, Funny)
Found a cult! (Score:4, Interesting)
True, it's not for Windows, but you take what you can get.
Ha! (Score:5, Funny)
They do have one... (Score:5, Funny)
News to me. (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
]{
PS. I speak from experience about the buggy state of Vista. I installed it on 2 systems with all 'Vista certified' hardware and both systems have problems tangible, very visible problems.
Re:News to me. (Score:5, Funny)
I will probably be modded down for this, but until Windows get better hardware support, it just won't be ready for the mainstream ;)
M$ is like a bad drug. (Score:5, Funny)
I know plenty of really passionate Microsoft fanbois. In fact they are the only people I know who have copies of Vista Ultimate.
I know lots of less passionate Microsoft fanboys. They are like drunk people who don't know they are drunk. The very idea of anything but M$ on their networks is unpossible to them. They don't know how anyone can get along without M$ and treat them suspiciously like a witch or nija. Because M$ is closed source, you have to take it on faith, but they confuse M$ with science. Their OS and software choice is a constant source of irritation and dissaster for them but they refuse to seek alternatives. They consider themselves perfectly rational and normal. These are more dangerous than those who realize their own passions and irrationality.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You must be new here (Score:3, Informative)
Ofcourse! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The only appropriate punishment for heresy like yours is thus: I sentence your computers to only be able to run Windows ME! And be thankful that, out of mercy, it isn't Microsoft Bob!
Great question. (Score:5, Insightful)
Positive choice (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are you're running OS X, Linux, Solaris, etc. because you made a decision to do so.
They Did (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, some of the blame goes to paper MSCEs, But not nearly as much as you think. And besides, paper MSCEs don't really care enough to bother proselytizing. OTOH, those ninnies do drive down the value of real techs.
The value of an MCSE (Score:3, Insightful)
It would appear that an MCSE is worth rather more - sometimes much more - than $10/HR:
Median Salary by Job - MSCE [payscale.com]
Median Hourly Rate by Job - MCSE [payscale.com] [Both updated May 3, 2007]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't it obvious? (Score:5, Funny)
One day He will Overcome the Satanic Forces at work by dripping his Holy Meatball Sauce onto Clippy, softening what was once hard and Unyileding. And Lo, Microsoft shall become as like IBM and One True Followers of the Way.
Thus it is written.
Slashdot is Microsoft's cult (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
know your enemy?
>everything they do or say is subjected to unending speculation here, albeit negative.
they've fucked over so many of their partners. they've broken so many laws. and the us government does nothing. should people who can see that they are doing evil ignore them? that'll make the problem go away! hey that might work!
>Outside of Slashdot I dont know a soul who really gives a rats ass what MS do
my brother knows nothing about computers. what he does kno
They do, sort of... (Score:2, Insightful)
I considered replying with a snide "Gee, I wonder..." comment.
But in a way, MS does have a cult-like following. Not the company itself, but some of the products. Consider:
Because MS has a much broader focus (Score:2)
The open source thing mentioned in summary is a little different, it isnt a single com
No grassroots for Microsoft (Score:5, Insightful)
That's how you get cult followers, appeal to the hobbyists, coders, enthusiasts, people that understand what is going on behind the scene.
You cant be a cult when you are on top (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also true in religion. The only reason the major religions arent called cults is they have established themselves at high enough #'s. Still same religion, ideology, etc. The only difference? #'s.
So, the massively dominant group of people that run windows/MS products sort of "are" the cult... but have already reached critical mass.
In some other reality where apple became dominant... then you could see a MS cult. But not happening... most of apples success if playing to the idea they are somehow an underdog little comapny that is cool.
Pod people aren't religious (Score:5, Funny)
They have a cult (Score:2)
Open your eyes! (Score:5, Insightful)
You've never heard a gillion programmers chanting "cool"?
"Cult" isn't quite the right word
hell has frozen over (Score:2)
news at 11
Religion is for the Weak (Score:5, Insightful)
Ever notice how those that have religion are very weak about their belief in it? It's as if a word spoken against it so threatens them that they must defend it vocally and almost violently. In fact, some get very violent about it. Their religion apparently cannot stand up on its own, it always needs the believers to prop it up.
Religionists want their religion to change their world, and they want to change the world to force it to accept their religion.
Many religions have missionaries. Most of them, the missionaries are as obnoxious, if not more so, than the religion itself. And, in many cases, the religion seems to survive in spite of their missionaries.
Now, that was about the OS wars. But, the same could be said about the theological religions as well.
yes they do (Score:3, Interesting)
If you ever came across an underground blackhat site where malware and crackware authors collaborate and exchange information about the internals of Windows and reverse engineering, it's actually pretty cult-like. These sites have the stereotypical white or phosphorous text over black background design.
You can find such site by Googling for keywords like softice OR disassembly tutorial [google.com]. Search terms like dll hook tutorial [google.com] also returns several underground sites because it's an essential technique used by spyware authors.
why doesn't Stalin have his own religion? (Score:2)
In other news, how does Bill Gates maintain his good looks?
Three words. (Score:3, Informative)
wha? believe me, it does (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Those folks just get lost in a sea of people who either don't care or actively dislike MS.
/obvious (Score:2)
Same reasons Mercs... (Score:5, Insightful)
As a developer who primarily targets MS platforms I can tell you that most of my peers are in it for the money just like the mercenaries. More tellingly, I know many MS developers who get as far away from tech as possible during their weekends/time off. Doesn't sound like a recipe for inspiration or the creation of products that inspire cultish fandom.
As for me? I am into MS because I am a niche programmer, and most all of my customers are locked in with proprietary niche market apps. They couldn't just switch accounting systems and migrate to Linux... they would have to identify and migrate to numerous small specialty apps to match their current level of functionality.
BTW, I was really pissed about the mudslinging directed toward the Mono project on a recent thread. There are plenty of us out here who want to see Linux make inroads in small markets where MS has ruled for years, and Mono is the best hope we have.
Regards.
No Microsoft Cult? (Score:2)
We have a Microsoft cult right here in Slashdot. Wait until there is a story about a vulnerability in Linux.
Interest (Score:2)
So it's different interest for different groups of people, nothing more, nothing less.
Microsoft has the most fanatic users (Score:2)
The fanatic Microsoft users don't constitute a cult, of course, since a cult per definition can not be mainstream.
Java has a cult? (Score:3, Interesting)
Having been a java developer for nearly a decade I never knew there was a Java cult. I wonder if I am a member unbeknownst to myself?
Why no cult? (Score:5, Funny)
I know why (Score:2)
I know why Microsoft...err Windows does not have a cult. It is because there is no community. No group of people where everyone knows your name and who you are. Everyone's PCs are too different. And too many people use Windows. It is the STANDARD OS for computers right now.
Cult's start small and grow large.
questions, questions... (Score:2)
They do have a cult, and it's the biggest of all (Score:3, Funny)
They worship Bill Gates as their prophet.
When your company is part of the Microsoft Developers Network, you get to have the Microsoft project management bible, which tells you how to run your agrarian bronze-age village... er, I mean your Inoformation Technology business.
FFS (Score:3, Insightful)
Richard Stallman is a man deeply committed to his principles, who has produced a large ecosystem of extremely useful software, and Linus produced a massively important component of that ecosystem. I respect them both for their technical skills, and also for their passion for their causes, but there is much that both (but especially Richard Stallman) have said which I disagree with.
I know people who are fanatically positive and negative about Linux, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, America, the EU, you name it. I have good arguments with them all. Why? The world isn't black and white (well, mine is a bit as I'm a Newcastle United fan). Deal with it.
MCSEs (Score:3, Informative)
There are MS worshippers... (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite frankly, MS is very developer friendly, if you are willing to pay for the privilege.
Thanks,
Mike
Linux Fanboys are the Minority (Score:5, Insightful)
This is such bull. For every Linux fanboy there are 10 regular joes using Linux to just get stuff done so they can go home and play with their kids. The zelots just draw more attention to themselves.
In fact, it is my experience that the guys spreading Linux / OSS religion know LESS than the guy just getting stuff done. They don't work in large environments where Linux is really put to work. They know nothing of Kerberos or pxe booting or anything like that. They take one look at KDE and declare Windoze obsolete but have never worked in an environment where you need to manage 20,000 desktops.
Open You're Eyes (Score:3, Interesting)
sure they do (Score:3, Interesting)
I work at a university where those responsible for computing technology don't even seem to consider non-Microsoft solutions. Every embrance and extend technology that comes out of Redmond is rolled out as soon as possible. The people in charge seem quite like a cult of Microsoft to me.
No Public Guru's really (Score:3, Insightful)
For example Gates bailed (probably got tired of being killed in the media for being evil), Ballmer is used up and was always more of a sales guy (i.e. no cred), Kevin Turner seems to be a hick shopkeeper who is little loved in MSFT (hiring him is starting to look like Balmer's biggest mistake), and Ray Ozzie, who MS put a lot of hope into, has disappeared for years and no one has a clue what he is doing.
OTOH the machine keeps cranking out products that dominate their market; their revenue and profits have accordingly doubled in the last 5 years. Hard to see the failure really. I have been told by Microserfs that they do not consider Linux or Apple to be a threat anymore, and are concentrating solely on Google, with a wary eye on a resurgent Oracle.
There goes my karma (flush) (Score:3, Insightful)
Use of the words "worship" and "religion" is flamebait. Nobody worships Linus, or IBM, or Sun. WTF is up with this incindiary prose?
This FA is flamebait (RTFFA?) here's how It would have read if I were Information Week's editor:
I'm part of the Microsoft Fan Club (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Goatshe! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Funny)
Man! Was that trolling or what?!
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Insightful)
NNNOOObody (Score:3, Funny)
Re:NNNOOObody (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:NNNOOObody (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It's kind of like Catholics during the Inquisition
Nooooobody expects the MCSEs!
Now if only their tricks of trade were as harmless as a comfy chair...
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:4, Funny)
Nooooobody expects the MCSEs! Our chief weapon is uncertainty. Uncertainty and fear. Fear and uncertainty. Our two weapons are fear and uncertainty... and doubt. Our three weapons are fear, uncertainty, and doubt... and an almost fanatical devotion to Steve Ballmer. Our four, no, amongst our weapons, amongst our weaponry are such elements as fear, uncertainty... I'll come in again.
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:4, Funny)
Would that be like Opus Dei?
I guess not. Opus Dei encourage self flagellation, while Microsoft does it to the rest of us.
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Funny)
How does one perform self-flagellation on another?
It's complicated, kinky, and illegal in 12 states.
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Informative)
I think you mean "like the christians during the inquisition".
The inquisition was far from catholic-only. On the catholic side you had the initial enablement via the papal bull of 1484 and it was executed primarily via their secular lawyer and monk (first dominican then jesuit) proxies.
But as far as the protestants go:
- luther said that witches should be burnt
- luther believed in incubus, sucubus, witches flying at night, etc, etc, etc
- calvin said the bible teaches us that that there are witches and that they must be slain
- calvin said that God expressly commands that all witches and enchantresses shall be put to death
- lutheran preachers brought the witch hunt to denmark, germany, sweden, etc
- calvinist missionaries brought it to transylvania, scottland, england, etc
- the catholic-protestant religious wars vastly increased the witch-burnings
So, while the catholics started the ball rolling, the protestants were equally guilty of keeping it going.
Nothing Quite Like It. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Funny)
Father Ted: It's not as if everyone's going to go off and join some mad religious cult just because we go off for a picnic for a couple of hours!
Father Dougal: God, Ted, I heard about those cults. Everyone dressing in black and saying our Lord's gonna come back and judge us all!
Father Ted: No... no, Dougal, that's us. That's Catholicism.
Sorry. Someone had already done the relevant Python quote. I'll get me coat.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
2) i would not say that most MS users are fanatic fans either. i would think most use it because that's what they have at work, or the computer they bought. maybe they bought that computer with MS Windows because it's the same OS they use at work and it's just easier. most people i know that run MS Windows are not at all in love with it. it works just fine for them and they a
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Although, you do have a point that European colonialism d
Re:Microsoft Is Like America. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The cult is where the choice is. On the desktop side of things, Mac users chose to split with the "I use it because everyone's using it" majority, and now have a much better (and safer!) OS to be proud of. For the 'behind the scenes' cults, it all depends on trade: the *nix 'cults' know they're the majority in everything web and server - but the strength of t
Re:They Do... (Score:5, Insightful)
One of my comments:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=226327&cid=18
(Sorry I'm not a subscriber anymore so I can't find any of my older comments... I've just given up on saying MS is good since no one will read my comments when they are rated at -1).
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:They Do... (Score:4, Insightful)
Year of Linux on the desktop? (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux got on my desktop a couple of years back.
Dell (the company that always only ever sell Windows to get better contracts with Microsoft) are now selling Linux to home users.
Last Thursday Uruguay started distributing Linux computers to kids.
So when will your Linux on the desktop be?
Re: (Score:2)
I happily USE open source stuff because it generally means I never have to PAY the poor souls who spent lifetimes developing all the free and open source software I use for fun and profit. I'm happy to see other people work for me for free, but I can't say I'd ever try it the other way around.
It's interesting to see you're actually missing the big picture here. Have you ever filed a bug report (or talked on forums about a possible bug, etc)? Have you suggested features? Have you posted any documentation? Have you ever helped other users with software?
All of these things are contributing back, and ultimately making the software better. Generally the people writing open source software are also using that same software, and they are most certainly benefiting from other users doing testing, findin
Re:They Suck. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's +5 insightful?
Easy +5 funny answer (Score:5, Funny)
Re:They Suck. (Score:4, Informative)
On the other hand, Bill Gates didn't eat Sunday dinner on the Hare Krishna's dime when he was young so he obviously didn't learn the techniques for mindfucking his employees like Jobs did.
Yup, linux user here. Not crazy about either of them.