Thieves Find Cemetery of Pharaoh's Dentists 129
junglee_iitk writes with news of an important archaeological find from Egypt. Grave robbers located a tomb and were arrested while digging; what they found turns out to be the graves of three dentists who took care of a Pharaoh's teeth. The graves are located in the shadow of the Step Pyramid at Saqqara, said to be Egypt's oldest, and are around 4,000 years old. From the article: "Although archaeologists have been exploring Egypt's ruins intensively for more than 150 years, [a senior archaeologist] believes only 30 percent of what lies hidden beneath the sands has been uncovered." Yahoo has a few pictures of the dig.
And yet... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Seriously, 30%? That's almost embarrassing. Don't we have some kind of fancy ground-penetrating radar we could be using?
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Re:And yet... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Looted & 'legitimate' artifacts all ended up in either museums or private collections. Those buyers always had the items authenticated by experts anyways.
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Sure, we all now that Britain and France looted huge amounts of gear from Egypt, but the way to make your point is not to make up crap.
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Re:And yet... (Score:5, Insightful)
A good example of this is the mummy of Ramses I. If this had been pillaged by archaeologists on behalf of the British Museum, it would be in much better shape that it is currently. However, because it was unearthed by tomb robbers, it spent over 100 years at a museum in Niagra Falls with very little concern for maintaining it and absolutely no indication given to visitors that it was, in fact, the mummy of a Pharoah. An "expert" grave robber would have followed much a much more strict procedure to ensure that it was properly cared for and properly catalogued (if only to increase the value, but still).
That said, the Ramses I mummy did end up in Egypt, which almost makes up for the shoddy maintenance it received over the course of its post-excavation life (museums around the world should follow the example of the Carlos Museum at Emory University and return everything that was stolen from Egypt)...
I would take a slightly different line. (Score:5, Insightful)
"But it belongs to (country)! Why should (some other country) keep it?" In the end, none of this "belongs" to a country. History cuurered everywhere at the same time. (Duh!) For the most part, the political boundaries that marked these countries no longer exist, the political entities have vanished into oblivion, no living direct descendents who could claim even a moral ownership are known to survive, so for the most part the only meaningful designation is "world heritage" (which I believe to not be used nearly enough and most definitely not recognized nearly enough).
So, if object X is being, or would very likely be, damaged by being in country Y, I believe country Y has lost all right to the ownership of object X. I don't like the fact that Britain has the Elgin Marbles, but I like even less the fact that they'd be destroyed by pollution if they were ever returned. The Greece of back then no longer exists, any more than the Egypt of the Pharaohes exists today. In some cases, there simply isn't a country in which an object is truly safe. In that case, you document every last facet like crazy and hope. (You can't move the Great Pyramid and you certainly can't hide it, though reducing pollution might cut down on the deterioration.)
But what makes something "world heritage"? The object itself? Usually no. Except in some rare cases, the object has no value in and of itself. For inorganic objects, it is the information the object posesses - from the chemical structure through to any symbols or writings on it, and the information associated with it - where it was made, when, how and why, where it was found, the nature of the site, other items found there and their respective characteristics and associations, and so on. These are the things that have any lasting meaning. Once you know the object - totally - you can always make another using exactly the same materials, tools and methods.
For organic objects, it's tougher. If a bone is damaged or destroyed, there is next to nothing you can do. And time is rarely kind to anything of organic nature. Tutankamun is in very bad shape now and the remains will probably not survive a whole lot longer. Part of that is due to Carter's team, but part is due to Egypt having very high levels of acidic pollution and acid rain. You can't expect much to survive under such brutal conditions.
The other problem with organics is that there's much less information you can obtain. With luck, you can extract mtDNA, maybe even use modelling to produce an impression of what the person looked like. Bodies found in peat bogs and ice fields give slightly more information, perhaps yielding clues of fashion, food and culture that artifacts alone can't. We learned a lot from "Pete Marsh" and the iron-age traveller murdered in the alps, but such finds are almost never in any kind of context, so there is very little you can do to connect them with what was happening at that time. "Pete Marsh" - Lindow Man - might date anywhere from prior to the Roman invasion to a hundred years after the Boudicca Rebellion, making it very hard to know what sort of context is involved.
Getting back to thieves vs. archaeologists - IMHO, it's not a binary thing. I would argue that the "absolute" thief is one who destroys information in search of money, even if that involves destroying the thing they're trying to find. (When archaeologists started paying money per fragment of Dead Sea Scroll recovered, some of the locals cut fragments up so that they could get more money.) I would argue that the "absolute" archaeologist obtains all information, even if that means never reaching the object. (We now have GPR scans of Edward the Confessor's tomb, but reaching it would destroy countless artifacts and could potentia
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Sadly... (Score:2)
The destruction of the two standing Buddhas was a terrible disaster for archaeologists and historians. Partl
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I am Britis
You are correct. (Score:2)
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What an attitude (Score:5, Funny)
If I hear someone saying that through the office door in the waiting room at the dentist's, I'm out of there.
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And, even more important, thieves have nothing to lose.
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Sounds like theese thieves have their shit together.
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Re:And yet... magazines... (Score:2)
Not counting all the old magazines from 1990 B.C. Geesh, this article about the delta flooding is at least five years older than the dig site...
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I suspect that's a combination of -
a) more of them
b) better funded
c) no restrictions on where they can dig
d) less work involved (no need to preserve context)
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After three thousand years, it isn't a grave, and it isn't robbing. If you want to contradict me, have the relatives of the dead give me a call.
Now, the archaeologists, THEY cleaned the places out in the 19th century.
Once again, it ain't stealin' if no one owns it. Just 'cause someone claims it doesn't mean they own it, either. Those tombs were emptied using political pressure, military occupation, and just plain thuggin' thievery by museums for the last couple of centuries. No one calls tho
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Inscription warning... (Score:1)
Mummy, the crocodile returns!!!
Re:Inscription warning... (Score:5, Funny)
So let me get this straight... First the crocodile eats you and then is the crocodile eaten by the snake? Or does the crocodile spit you out first?
Re:Inscription warning... (Score:5, Funny)
Close...replace "spit" with a very similar word...
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Of course, you could be required to eat every last part of both the snake and crocodile. That sounds the worst of all possible six combinations.
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Moo (Score:1, Funny)
Of course, they only had the teeth because the thieves ancestors stole the rest of the body. They took them to court and cried "I want my mummy!", but for some reason the judge kept it under wraps.
They left just the teeth. That's got to bite.
What about the tooth fairy? (Score:3, Funny)
wouldn't that be the tooth phairy?? (Score:2)
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But if you're going to fly there and find out, you'd better hurry: the Cheops close at 5:00. And make sure you check out the camels, they're without peer amid the mammals...
Re: your sig (Score:1)
John 3:16
2 Kings 2:23 [plainbible.com]
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sri
We musts make preservation a priority (Score:5, Funny)
Moo (Score:1)
So, it's a story of how the lower quality beat the higher quality, even though they flatly d
Dr. Zahi Hawass (Score:3, Insightful)
GW (Score:4, Funny)
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Ouch. I don't think they'll use that term in adverts.
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However, they did have time machines to ensure that the Freemason plans were continuing as planned. Muahahahah!
EULA (Score:3, Funny)
One wonders (Score:5, Funny)
How do they know it is 30%? (Score:2)
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Probably just the sheer number of (semi) important people who would have died over the time period of the pyramids and merited a fancy burial.
Back in February they found a new tomb [bbc.co.uk] which is literally something like 45 feet from the tomb of Tut -- the first undisturbed find since Tut's tomb. I was watching a show last night on Discovery about the recovery/perservation efforts. They seem to think it was either his mother or his wif
And his HMO (Score:4, Funny)
Yank Like An Egyptian (Score:1, Funny)
Didn't brush enough, dont you know
It led to tooth decay (oh whey oh)
Teeth falling out like a hockey Joe.
All the king's dentists by the Nile
Don't even know 'bout filling holes
Gold incisors (oh whey oh)
Go in after the old get pulled.
Plier bites without nitrous pipes say:
Ay oh whey oh, ay oh whey oh
Yank like an Egyptian.
whats the diffrence? (Score:1)
"It belongs in a musuem!" (Score:1)
First clue...really the hieroglyphs? (Score:3, Funny)
As if the stack of old Highlights magazines in the entryway were not clue enough...
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Zahi Hawass (Score:3, Insightful)
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ss/events/sc/102206e
Dan East
It couldn't be... (Score:2)
Seriously, you might want to do a bit of research before posting, it might answer your questions! I will admit, it does seem like he is all over the place, but given his job, one would expect him to be...
I, for one... (Score:1)
Only 30% of what lies under the sand is known? (Score:3, Interesting)
But don't they have the means now to map things which lie below the surface? I believe I've heard or read that they have satellites that can do that to some extent now. Also, I saw a show on the Discovery Channel where they planted small charges in a grid pattern in some Greek island while looking for the origin of the Atlantis myth, detonated them, and then created an image based on how well sound propagated through subsoil strata.
If that's so, then why can't they do something like that in the Nile river valley? Surely it's gotta be cheaper and faster and safer to uncover the past that way than to dig randomly or wait for a bunch of grave-robbing turkeys to make finds first.
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the most common older one is the one you talk about where they set off a small explosion and then have sensors that detect how long it takes from the vibration to travel. since it takes different times depending on the material you can get an idea if something is there and the general shape.
The fairly newer kind is an actual ground radar system which you have to drag around, it sends signals into the ground they bounce back and you get an idea what is down there.
The
Better Title: (Score:5, Funny)
Archeology - arrogant redfinition of grave robbery (Score:3, Interesting)
sell it, or display it in a museum, it's still
grave robbery.
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How, exactly, do you propose to stop other people grave robbing, those who wreck the tombs, the history, all evidence and the artifacts, FOR THE GOLD AND THE MONEY before "real" scientists (who quite often go out of their way to make sure that virtually every body that ca
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My hovercraft is full of eels.
I suppose you would like us to also hover over any grave that's ever been made (which would mean hovering for all eternity unless we visit another planet), so as not to (potentially) damage it?
That's quite a logical leap you've made from my assertion that digging around in graves,
for the purpose of removing stuff, whether for study or profit, is grave robbery.
How, exactly, do you propose to stop other people grave robbing,
Liberal app
And I thought mine was bad. (Score:2)
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What's a few Centuries between Friends? (Score:2)
4,000 years would put it outside the Old Kingdom dates and the major pyramid-building era altogether. But hey, it all happened a long time ago, and anything that happened a long time ago practically happened on the same date!
Oddly enough (Score:1)
The identity of the dentists (Score:2)
Fate of the thieves (Score:2)
I wonder if the punishment of the thieves could carry this threat on. It would be interesting if the penalty for grave robbers would be to feed them to crocodiles and snakes.
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Or maybe (as I suspected from the AC's post) much of
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No need for any of that ancient stuff. Two persons: a slashdotter and T'Pol.
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Hmmm.... this could go TOO far. Maybe even lawyers could be eaten!!!!
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Too lazy to scrape the floor at your favorite theatre?
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Okay I have to speak up. This sounds like an Italian low-budget ripoff of Species.
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How would that work? (Score:4, Insightful)
DNA may very well already have been extracted and studied, I have no idea, but sperm/semen is much more boring than a full set of chromosomes in a single package.
Re:Obligatory digging-is-not-theft post (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Obligatory digging-is-not-theft post (Score:5, Insightful)
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In the US if you own the land, you own the sub-terranean rights (within limits). e.g. If you find a gold mine under your home, the gold is yours. As for the Native American artifacs - that's a special provision like gambling on their reserves. So as not to add insult to injury, there have been attempts made t
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You might not own the mineral (subsurface) rights for your land, since mineral rights are seperate from surface rights. Ditto for the air rights.
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Minor nitpick: Egypt itself still has a sizable minority of Coptic Christians (most of the 10% who aren't Muslims, according to Wikipedia).
But otherwise you're dead on. The Coptic language, used for services in the Coptic church, is the direct descendant of the ancient Egyptian language.
To address the original poster's question, though, there are a number of reasons why modern Egypti
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Moreover, most countries have laws about what can and can't be done with ancient artifacts, which have a protected status analogous to that of endangered species. Saying it's "not stealing" and thus "fair game" is as specious saying it's okay to shoot an