Indian ISPs Taxed for Generating "Light Energy" 293
CaptKeen writes, "The Hindu is reporting that the Indian Government is trying to tax optical broadband providers (think fiber to the premises) for generating 'light energy.' According to the Commercial Tax Department, optical broadband providers operate on light energy which is 'artificially created and sold to customers for the purpose of data transmission and information.' This classification would make Internet access goods (since you are buying light) as opposed to service — and would be subject to a 12.5% VAT."
Well, (Score:5, Funny)
Thank you. Come again! (Score:2, Insightful)
Lawyers (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Lawyers (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Well, (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well, (Score:5, Funny)
100 phothons please (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Re:100 phothons please (Score:5, Interesting)
The amount of light generated by the customer should be equal to the amount being generated by the other end, unless you send a significantly disproportionalte number of 1 bits versus 0 bits. See Manchester Encoding [abdn.ac.uk].
The money changes hands in exchange for actually routing the data back and forth, not for providing the light. Where the light is concerned, you have a like-for-like (light-for-light?) exchange between two parties with no financial transaction involved. So basically, the companies should simply tell the government that the two parties performed a like-for-like exchange of equivalent amounts of light, and that no additional money changed hands as a result of any inequality in the number of zero (high) bits. Therefore, since 15% of zero is zero, no tax is owed. Problem solved.
Re:100 phothons please (Score:4, Interesting)
You obviously do not know how to think like a bureaucrat. You can't avoid paying taxes on transactions just because you don't use money as payment. If a like-for-like exchange was made, then clearly taxation needs to be levied in both directions, bringing the total taxation revenue level to 30%.
Re:100 phothons please (Score:4, Interesting)
The power to tax is the power to destroy. So if the Indian govt. wants to destroy their "information" economy by taxing ISPs for light generating, then they are on the right track.
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However I'm pretty sure this rule was created by some over-zealous bureaucrat and it will eventually get removed. Unfortunately bureaucrats in India (and elsewhere) tend to pretty stupid.
Oh noes!!!11! (Score:5, Funny)
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Wow (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
When will people learn that you get less of what you tax more? Good news for all those US and European workers worried about losing their jobs to offshoring! India is shooting themselves in the foot.
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Taxing the *correct* bits (Score:4, Funny)
Now, if you want to do the accounting properly, you should separate out the cost of the energy used in producing the light, as opposed to the cost of the information. So the wattage used to drive the transmission gear ought to be easy to measure, because that's the energy used to generate light. What percentage of the total electricity used by the ISP goes to the lasers, as opposed to the servers, routers, etc.? How much did they spend on electricity? How much is that as a percentage of the total price of the service?
If the stupid tax thugs want to cripple their economy through rent-seeking, make sure they only get the correct rent...
When I first started working with Indian businesses in the early 90s, my opinion was that the best thing anybody could do for the world economy was to ask their telecom regulation bureaucrats how much of a bribe it would take to get them to go away and leave everybody alone. A billion dollars? Pay it! Of course, nobody did that, but telecom did gradually get some partial liberalization, and the Bangalore call center business alone went from near-zero to a billion dollars, then two, then five billion a year, and I've lost track of its growth since then. There's still a lot of trouble - VSNL had a lock on the submarine cable landings, so there were terabits of traffic going by the harbor in Mumbai but only a few gigabits were allowed to land, and they were very expensive because of their scarcity and the toll they extracted for using the services, whereas other carriers can haul bandwidth around the country for costs (as opposed to prices) that resemble the costs in the EU or US. India may have economic development issues that make it a bit more expensive, but that's more like a factor of 2, not 10, and the cost of right-of-way for cable routes should probably be much lower, which makes up for some of it.
Not Really... (Score:4, Insightful)
This sounds reasonable and ingenious.
Insidious, maybe. But "Buying Light" suggests it's only unidirectional, what's really happening is you're exchanging light, with a net of 0.
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But they can tax it both directions. The customer has to have lasers to send respose packets and upload whatever it is they need to upload. They can tax bot the Tx and Rx parts!!
"Shut down error detection, shut down parity checking, shut down acknowledgements, shut down all outgoing light." - Memo from the PHB
Re:And it's not really light either, instead... (Score:4, Funny)
Which gives me an excellent idea, even if I say so myself.
What do you mean, "light energy"? Here, look at this plugged-in-at-the-other-end optical cable... can you see anything? Any light?
Look again, I'm sure you'll see it eventually...
Psst... (Score:2)
Re:Psst... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure of the Indian taxation system, but I would guess that a consumer is already paying the government for the privelage of getting electrons in the first place, which will then be used to turn the photons into useful information. This would smack of double taxation. But hey, the Australian government is happy doing this as we can pay government mandated GST on top of government mandated stamp duty.
Re:Psst... (Score:4, Funny)
What about a tax break for giving back some of the light with each packet sent? - you have requests 'going out', and for each packet you receive you send back some kind of ACK.
Well, then... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Well, then... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Going back to the topic, so if I separate out the supply of light from the service component, presumably I only have to pay VAT on the light part.
What next, tax the bible? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
This may be an Indian "April Fools" (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This may be an Indian "April Fools" (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This may be an Indian "April Fools" (Score:5, Funny)
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The article you pointed to says:
Holidays and observances
* RC Saints - Saint Thomas of Villanueva? ; Saint Paulinus of York (in England)
* Also see October 10 (Eastern Orthodox liturgics)
* Republic of China (on Taiwan) - National Day (Double Tenth Day)
* Fiji - Fiji Day (National Day)
* Japan - National Health-Sports Day
* World Mental Health Day
* Old Michelmas - Celtic holiday
* French Repub
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Here is a URL for a full description: http://www.aryabhatt.com/fast_fair_festival/Fasts/ KarvaChauth.htm [aryabhatt.com]
So, as much as we might want to believe it, this isn't an Indian April Fool. They really ARE trying to enact this insanity into law.
I'm not sure if that makes it funn
Re:This may be an Indian "April Fools" (Score:5, Interesting)
In some jurisdictions compressed air is considered a "tangible commodity" and therefore subject to sales tax (not VAT or GST, but ordinary sales tax that nominally applies only to manufactured goods.) The dive shop in my home town had a letter from the provincial government posted explaining this, as a lot of customers were asking, "Why the hell to I have to pay provicial sales tax when I get my tanks filled--isn't this a service? And aren't services not subject to provincial sales tax?"
So the bottom line is that governments have always been willing to redefine terms and just make stuff up when it helps generate tax revenue. Much like every other human organization, in fact.
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What difference does that make?
It can make a significant perceptial difference, if not a difference in how things actually pan out. Things like the REA (Rural Electrification Agency) tax are "hidden"; they're actually taxes levied against utilities, who then pass them through to us as part of those "federal taxes" listed on the bill. People don't care about taxes levied against evil utilities, even ignoring the fact that they're paying them indirectly. The so-called "Gore tax [cato.org]" was an increase in the "Un
Tomato (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tomato (Score:4, Insightful)
In other words it makes no sense at all but they did it anyway (under Reagan).
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Re:Tomato (Score:5, Informative)
But if we genetically engineer them to put the RSA code on them, then I guess they'd be a munition. They're also good for throwing at bad actors.
Here's an idea (Score:5, Funny)
The hell? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:The hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Taking the taxman's position in this article, one could impose the VAT on cellular telephone providers as they are doing the same thing, exhanging money for a specially encoded form of electromagnetic radiation. That's right - the only difference between visible light and radio waves is the frequency. You can not hold visible light in your hand just as you can not hold any EM waves.
And FM radio gives their radiation away for free...must be communists or something
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Of course, then the ISP would get into trouble for the unfair practice of "bundling" one item (the service) with another (the photons), s
How about... (Score:2)
Can anyone in India tell me whether this is an honest attempt at doing something stupid, or do you guys have the equivalent of Ted Stevens and his "Internet Tubes"?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They will tax the end users too for "generating and sending light power" themselves.
Hmmm (Score:2)
Light Goods (Score:4, Funny)
I used to work for a logistics company, and we dealt with 'light goods' all the time.
Oh.
Better than here (Score:3, Funny)
Imperialism well taught (Score:5, Insightful)
When I read that a government that was created by the power and witness of such acts now wished to tax the production and transmission of light, It makes me wonder if they have even read their history.
JFMILLER
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Why yes, yes they have.
KFG
The CTO will see the light soon. (Score:2)
Attempt to re-distribute the wealth? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm shocked! (Score:2)
In related news, it's been proved that men are mortal, but behave as if they weren't.
Please Help Us (Score:3, Funny)
We will pay handsomly for such an algorythm since our light bill will be substantially lowered.
Note, we have already tried piping the data through
In this case, the lights are off but we are home.
Incidentally, our engineers did try to come up with a novel way to transmit binary data using darkness alone.
We transmitted a zero as a single off state, and a one as a double off state, this saves electricity and light but our engineers are again having trouble reading it.
"Light Energy" (Score:2)
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EE 101 (Score:2, Insightful)
Nevermind that the photons don't go past the first repeater. Was anyone else reminded of when California tried to apply annual property taxes on satellites in orbit?
Sometimes the principal that I hold so dear, that lawyers are the worst of all humans is tested by a group of legislators.
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"Sometimes the principal that I hold so dear, that lawyers are the worst of all humans is tested by a group of legislators."
I wouldn't worry about trading this principle, given the percentage of the latter that are also the former.
They're apparently avoiding the pastry taxes, too. (Score:2)
I'm sorry, is this
Today, it seems more like fark.
Interesting question, philosophically (Score:4, Interesting)
One way around it-- they could switch to infrared LED's, then you're not getting visible light.
If they claim you're still getting heat, challenge them to feel the end of the fiber and detect any heat coming out.
It does make Ben Franklin, or was it Faraday, apropos to today. Back then he was showing some govt official batteries and electromagnets. The official asked "What good is it?" Reply: "Soemday, you'll tax it".
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The Dark Sucker Theory
For years, it has been believed that electric bulbs emit light, but recent information has proved otherwise. Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus, we call these bulbs Dark Suckers. The Dark Sucker T
Best wishes to the Indian government (Score:5, Funny)
I wish you 100% success in your initiative to tax light energy from Indian ISPs
You will single handedly kill outsourcing to your country. Many American IT workers will deliver many thanks upon you
How is this fair (Score:2)
How long... (Score:2)
Dep't of Redundancy Dep't (Score:2)
Rule of incentives (Score:2)
What unforeseen behavior will this tax create to avoid it?
Light is Free (Score:5, Insightful)
However, if you would like the ISP to modulate some well-timed *dark* spots in the line for the purposes of data transmission, *that* is going to cost you.
Since darkness (the absence of light) can't be defined as a product, no VAT.
Problem solved.
Re: (Score:2)
Very true. The "data" is just as much the absence of light as it is the presence of it.
Re:Light is Free (Score:5, Funny)
Wait... So, you want to charge people for *not* shooting a laser at them. That's bloody brilliant.
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If it moves, tax it
If it keeps moving, regulate it
If it stops moving, subsidise it
They have just figured out that light is actually doing the first of these... expect regulation soon!
I wouldn't mind this (Score:2)
(Unless the Oppressors found a way to say that the photons are yours, but once you convert them back into bits, all their restrictions applied again.
Which they probably would.
btw, is the revolution any closer yet?)
A question of transport (Score:2)
If you disagree call our legal department (Score:2)
But please be aware that all verbal complaints are considered "sound energy" and will be taxed at
$10 per nano-decibel.
Thank you and have a nice day
Electricity (Score:2, Insightful)
Gravity well tax? (Score:2)
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Like I said, "value added." But, no extra charge, today.
Round-Trip Tax (Score:2)
In the unlikely event that this ruling passes muster with the Delhi High Court, it could also hasten India's already-rapid migration to wireless broadband [sifycorp.com].
-c.
India already has service tax ! (Score:3, Informative)
I am an Indian and I have no idea what the government is trying to achieve by this. India already has a tax on services, at 12%. How would changing the classification from goods to service help ? The tax revenue will be increasing by just 0.5%.
In any case, this is being done only by a state government, so its valid only within that particular state. It will have no effect on any other parts of the country. And I expect this to be struck down by the courts anyway.
Whoosh (Score:2)
I love it.
Bad joke ahead (Score:2)
another annoyance with this (Score:2)
Let's keep perspective.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Question for the Indians out there (Score:3, Interesting)
Karnataka has Bangalored itself (Score:3, Insightful)
You've got to meet some of these revenue officials to realize what absolute crud they are actually.
It should be clear to anybody having the slightest knowledge of business transactions and indirect taxation that the ISPs are not selling light energy, they are just providing data communication service. If we go by their logic, they would start levying VAT on the electrical charge in phone lines, microwaves for cellphones, radio waves, God knows what else.
And as the value of the 'goods' being sold is much higher than the input cost, namely electricity, the value added could be computed as a major chunk of the rental/data transmission charges unless allowed to be set off by connectivity expenses.
Oh well, not everyone in India has to worry about this, the tax is being assessed only in Karnataka, where Bangalore - and its most notorious, useless products are located. In a sense, it is moving forward quicker to the planned unification of VAT and Service Tax under GST. More power to you, o techie!
-clueless
particle or wave? (Score:5, Funny)
this is great! SCREW YOU EINSTEIN!
Taxes (Score:3, Insightful)
It's pretty old as well. There's no reason for a government owning your ass to stop at such trivial obstacles such as common sense and morale. It just has to be legal.
Coincidentally, what is legal is decided by the government. Man, I so wanna be in the next elections, come to think of it!
Well I'm happy things haven't changed since I left (Score:3, Informative)
Really what happened is the company (Airtel) didn't bribe some politician or offended one in some manner (such as an employee of the company playing his music too loud next door, or the company CEO refusing to let the politicians layabout son marry his daughter or some such, or indeed because the politicians astrologer told him it would be beneficial if he put shani in the 4th house of Airtel...).
Clearly Airtel is in the deepest shit because Ahh the Chitaguppis of this world are getting upitty these days.
The problem will go away when either Airtel does bribe said politico or this goes to court for ten years and lawyers bicker back and forth using words that do not mean what they think they mean, and it dies a nice peaceful death. Or the politician does.
In the event that this is the tax department trying to be "creative", I'd points out that cellular providers, radio providers and indeed basically any device that has a counter (your speedometer for instance)that you look at uses photons to transmit data to your cellphone/radio/eye. Ofcourse just imagine the increase in revenue if they taxed all those devices. Or argue that light is energy and Airtel (might be) is paying for their energy and simply changing energy from one form to another is a perfectly dull thing to do and is all allowed by this lovely little principle called conservation of energy.
Also for your general light entertainment (hyuk hyuk) have a song. [haverford.edu]
Too bad we can't get a rebate on "stupid"... (Score:3, Funny)
Trouble with this law, US providers might see it and decide to start charging users for the light they "use".
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In my travels in India, I never witnessed this.
My guess is the head-on collision had to do with one or both drivers going too far into the oncoming lane. Many highways are not divided, and have no center line marking.
This illustrates my point. . . (Score:3, Interesting)
What? Hezbollah emerged in Lebanon in the 80's. They had nothing to do with the "Iran Hostage Crisis".
And the Iran Hostage Crisis was hardly the result of a terrorist act. --It came about more through a mob reaction to American villainy. (The CIA regularly interferes with other nations' natural ev